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Old 03-19-2017, 05:41 PM
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range run 9mm brass reloads??? range run 9mm brass reloads??? range run 9mm brass reloads??? range run 9mm brass reloads??? range run 9mm brass reloads???  
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Question range run 9mm brass reloads???

have done this for years with little difficult;

this last batch however, presents 'PIA' level issue:

a certain percentage of otherwise 'within spec' brass of all head stamps, are now showing the problem of 'primer sucking' phemonena:

On 650 Dillon, Stage 1 decaps/resizes; Stage 2 is new primer insert/powder drop.

Therein discovered this problem:
on some primers they cling to the decap pin & are sucked back into the primer pocket, so you can recharge otherwise normal case.

After talking with Dillon tech & getting their suggestions, there remains perhaps a 5-10% rate of such continuing to occur.

They did mention 'CCI' & another shiny primer as being more likely than WSP etc due to softness.

Further exam of the cases, not yet confirmed, is at least 'many' of the affected cases, have the mark of an old military primer seal, with the little extra ring around the primer hole.

Discussion/observations/resolution/helpful stories solicited.
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Old 03-19-2017, 06:11 PM
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I throw out all 9mm S&B and any military brass with the "ring around the primer hole" on initial sorting of range trash brass. There is too much 9mm available to me to mess with known problems. I don't have a problem with current CCI.
A few oddballs get through and are marked with a black pen for disposal after shooting.


AFTERTHOUGHT: Have you double checked your decapping pin to be sure there is no burr or slight mushroom of the head after extensive use?
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Old 03-19-2017, 07:06 PM
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Just a suggestion, but you can buy good quality, once-fired brass with the same headstamp online very cheaply. In fact, 9mm brass may be the cheapest of them all. It may not be free, but it's close to it, and you probably won't have to deal with the headaches associated with range brass.
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Old 03-19-2017, 07:34 PM
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Are you using Dillon dies with the press? The Dillon sizing die incorporates a spring-loaded de-capping pin that compresses when pushing the primer out. When primer clears the pocket the de-capping pin snaps down shaking the primer off the pin.

If you already have the Dillon die remove the de-capper assembly, thoroughly clean it and re-install.
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Old 03-19-2017, 07:56 PM
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I had a problem where it was taking 2 or 3 pulls to get the primer out of 9mm cases. The first pull would pop the primer sideways but not out. Out of frustration I pulled the die apart and I figured it out. I had broke the primer pin on a crimped case and had replaced it with a smaller one for a .223 rifle die. The pin had worked fine for a couple months before the problem started.
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Old 03-19-2017, 08:04 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by m657 View Post
have done this for years with little difficult;

this last batch however, presents 'PIA' level issue:

a certain percentage of otherwise 'within spec' brass of all head stamps, are now showing the problem of 'primer sucking' phemonena:

On 650 Dillon, Stage 1 decaps/resizes; Stage 2 is new primer insert/powder drop.

Therein discovered this problem:
on some primers they cling to the decap pin & are sucked back into the primer pocket, so you can recharge otherwise normal case.

After talking with Dillon tech & getting their suggestions, there remains perhaps a 5-10% rate of such continuing to occur.

They did mention 'CCI' & another shiny primer as being more likely than WSP etc due to softness.

Further exam of the cases, not yet confirmed, is at least 'many' of the affected cases, have the mark of an old military primer seal, with the little extra ring around the primer hole.

Discussion/observations/resolution/helpful stories solicited.
The fix for the "primer sucked back into the pocket" is to remove the decap pin, file the end so it is somewhat pointed like a chisel. This prevents the primer from grabbing the pin. I did this a couple of years ago and haven't had this occur since. I'm using a 650 and load 800-1200 a week during the competition season.
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Old 03-19-2017, 08:05 PM
Ballistic147 Ballistic147 is offline
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I've run into the same issue on my Hornady LNL AP a few times however it generally hasn't been on crimped primers. For me it's been maybe 1 out of 100 cases and all different calibers. The good thing for me (if you can call it that) is it just locks up the shell plate so that case won't advance to the next station. Normally raising the ram slightly and rotating the shell plate back a little will dislodge the primer from the case. I've made sure all the decapping pins on my dies are completely smooth with a nice rounded tip but the problem still happens occasionally. Unfortunately I can trace it back to a specific primer or brass brand.
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Old 03-19-2017, 08:42 PM
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I used mixed range brass & have maybe 1/1000 do this. I pretty much tossny foreign brass but pmc seems ok. The us brands seem to be more in spec. I shoot a 1911/9 & its really finicky with a tight match chamber. Everything gets case gaged & rounds that dont fit go into my glocks.
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Old 03-19-2017, 09:28 PM
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Thanks for the ideas gents. Will work thru with some very good ideas here.

This PM had time to do a little sort, have 3 piles of brass. Will run a bit larger sample & observe results.

Given my 'memorial used 9mm brass collection' has grown considerably the past few years I've been intending to thin is down a bit anyway....just never thought I'd get to the point of actually SORTING the stuff this way.....

Have managed to almost burn a whole pound of N350 up in this little 124g Plated 9mm load. Seems to be pretty nice. Intend to get a paper target reading in the next few days.
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Old 03-19-2017, 10:02 PM
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Crimped Primer recesses and primers that have been pushed out and drawn back into the primer recess are two separate issues.

The first issue requires sorting out any S&B, Speer, or Nato headstamps for removal of the crimp.

The second issue is actually VERY EASY to solve. BTW when I first encountered this problem and came up with a solution I emailed Dillon and RCBS on what solved the problem of primer being carried back partially into the primer pocket and got no acknowledgement of my suggestion whatsoever. The problem is caused by a squared off extractor pin. What happens is that in cases where the pressure required to remove the primer is high enough the anvil inside the primer cup deforms in such a way that the pin is "pinched" by the deformation of the primer cup and anvil. The solution is actually very simple, use a Dremel to hold the decapping pin and some wet or dry 600 grit sandpaper to radius the tip of the decapping pin to a hemispherical shape. Being a bit OCD I also put a high polish on the tip using a felt wheel and a bit of diamond lapping compound but I would expect the finish produced by 600 grit sandpaper will do perfectly well.

BTW, I know that a change this minor doesn't seem like it would have any effect at all. However, pick your most problematic caliber and you'll find this actually does work.
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Old 03-19-2017, 10:27 PM
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Odd range of suggested primer pin shapes. For decades the standard Dillon dome-shaped served well in all applications. (I now only use Dillon dies).

About 8 years ago a rash of similar 'primer suck' was happening on a lot of my 38/357 brass. Finally tracked down solution to observe and remove 'the spur' Dillon tech was sure to be there. Yes it was, I had missed it somehow. And remedy was to shape back into the dome configuration. End of that problem.

Just Friday the Dillon tech guy said to SQUARE off the end of the decapper pin. Didn't help all that much. Haven't done the 'chisel bit' shape yet. Never thought of the high polish/reshape approach. Will also check pin diameter to confirm proper diameter.

Prior to filing it flat, the end was in normal domed shape with no spurs/etc.

Does anyone have the proper pin diameter handy?

I don't have any decrimping tool for "S&B, Speer, or Nato headstamps for removal of the crimp". So far in about an 80 case separation for next loading trial, I have about equal 'shiny' & 'non shiny' primers in 2 containers. And shiny versions are in 2 further breakdown, with a small handful of each, in crimped & non-crimped primer pocket style.
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Old 03-20-2017, 06:30 AM
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If you have a smart phone with a magnifying glass feature you can use that to get a pretty good look at the condition of tip of your decapping pin. Another option is an old 28mm lens for a 35mm SLR, they make an excellent 10 X magnifier if you look into the lens with the film side around an inch from your subject.

What you want is a tip that is a true Hemisphere, as in a round sphere cut exactly in half. I found that my Dillon pins did have a "dome" shape but it was sort of like a dome on a football stadium with a sharp edge all the way around the perimeter. It is that sharp edge that bites into the primer and causes that "sucking" you are having trouble with. I would suggest that you don't bother with squaring off the tip, simply start radiusing the tip into a true hemisphere.
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Old 03-20-2017, 09:42 AM
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appreciate the ....well...'tip' ....scooter123....will be doing close inspection later today
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Old 03-20-2017, 10:30 AM
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m657, I ran into this same problem with my 9MM Dillon sizing/decapping die just like you. And I use 95+% CCi primers for all my reloading because of quality versus price reasons, so this was a big problem. And this only happened with my 9MM Dillon die, which is the only Dillon die I own. All my other resizing pistol dies are either RCBS, Lyman or Lee and no other die gives me this problem.

I called Dillon on this when it started happening and the first guy I talked to said to square off the decapping pin. I tried that and it was still occasionally having primers suck up into the pocket and got worse again over time. So I called Dillon back up and the guy next talked to said to round off the pin. When I told him that the last guy I talked to over there said to square off the end, he pretty much called me a liar! I bit my tongue and then tried rounding the damned decapping pin back off, but it didn't seem to be helping much. Also, I had resized many many cases with this die and to me it looked like the pin was a bit short and worn down. So I ordered a couple of decapping pins (which are not covered under warranty BTW) and replaced the decapping pin with a new one and now the issue with primer suck up is pretty much a ting of the past.

So next time you order something from Dillon, order yourself a couple of replacement decapping pins and try a new one out.

And I personally will not buy another Dillon resizing die because of this problem. All my other dies don't give me the suck up problem. I'm not saying that the Dillon dies aren't high quality dies, but rather I think that their decapping system used lends itself to having this problem when the decapping pin gets worn down a bit from usage.
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Old 03-20-2017, 12:53 PM
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I load on my Dillon 550 but use RCBS dies. I 2nd the motion to throw out all S&B brass and don't run through the press. For the military crimped brass, Dillon sells a primer pocket swagging tool. It can make quick work of eliminating the crimp ring. Just accumulate the military brass until you have big batch then decap once and then swag the pocket. Our gun club bought a Dillon tool many years ago and members can check it out for awhile.
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