|
|
|
03-28-2017, 09:22 AM
|
Member
|
|
|
Join Date: Mar 2017
Posts: 88
Likes: 13
Liked 70 Times in 35 Posts
|
|
Does anybody trim their pistol brass?
Just wondering how many people actually trim their pistol brass. I bought an RCBS hand trimmer but haven't used it in about 4 years. I mainly used it for my rifle brass, but haven't really needed to lately because the only rifle brass I reload is .223 ammo and just check it with a Lyman case gauge and it never seems to have a size problem. As far as pistol brass goes, I generally stick with revolvers for reloading and the rimmed case doesn't need any trimming in my opinion. Some Reloaders I suppose get very particular and trim everything to specs, just wondering what most people do as far as trimming goes?
Sent from my Moto G (4) using Tapatalk
|
The Following User Likes This Post:
|
|
03-28-2017, 09:22 AM
|
Member
|
|
|
Join Date: Jan 2001
Location: In The Woods Of S.C.
Posts: 8,900
Likes: 14,032
Liked 13,740 Times in 4,979 Posts
|
|
No, not ever..........
__________________
S&W Accumulator
|
The Following 5 Users Like Post:
|
|
03-28-2017, 09:27 AM
|
Member
|
|
|
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: North East PA
Posts: 530
Likes: 62
Liked 175 Times in 88 Posts
|
|
Do not trim any more unless there is a specific cause to make me do so.
__________________
Lost in Penn's Woods
|
03-28-2017, 09:31 AM
|
Member
|
|
|
Join Date: Feb 2017
Location: Middle Georgia
Posts: 101
Likes: 124
Liked 75 Times in 40 Posts
|
|
I don't. I thought about it the other night but then I looked down at the 700 cases I was working on and I said nah.
Sent from my SM-G935V using Tapatalk
|
The Following 2 Users Like Post:
|
|
03-28-2017, 09:45 AM
|
|
Member
|
|
|
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: OVER the hill in TEJAS
Posts: 2,725
Likes: 13,107
Liked 4,339 Times in 1,773 Posts
|
|
From what I have gathered in the past only 38 special auto shooters do this sometimes for their 52s.
Last edited by 4barrel; 03-28-2017 at 09:47 AM.
|
03-28-2017, 10:17 AM
|
Member
|
|
|
Join Date: Feb 2015
Posts: 713
Likes: 129
Liked 719 Times in 327 Posts
|
|
I trim all my once fired 223/5.56 brass as I find some of it to be longer than spec. I also trim all 38 Special, 357 Mag and 44 Mag once fired brass. I've seen it vary as much as .010" between the same headstamps. Trimming everything to the same length gives me a more precise crimp, especially on the revolver rounds where I'm using a roll crimp. On my full house 357's and 44's I use a heavy roll crimp and a .010" longer case is enough to cause problems by crushing the case. Once they're all trimmed it will be quite a few reloads before they need to be trimmed again.
I've never trimmed any of my semi auto pistol rounds that get a light taper crimp and don't have any problems. Actually those rounds don't get a true crimp but just removing the flare.
|
The Following 8 Users Like Post:
|
|
03-28-2017, 11:03 AM
|
|
Member
|
|
|
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: sunny Orygun
Posts: 2,910
Likes: 392
Liked 307 Times in 195 Posts
|
|
never found advantage or need in any pistol caliber I've used
__________________
Dum vivimus Vivamas
|
03-28-2017, 11:11 AM
|
|
Member
|
|
|
Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: Houston, TX
Posts: 3,718
Likes: 1,602
Liked 6,317 Times in 2,296 Posts
|
|
I did when I started reloading, but not in last thirty years.
|
The Following User Likes This Post:
|
|
03-28-2017, 11:24 AM
|
Member
|
|
|
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Montana
Posts: 5,164
Likes: 3,441
Liked 6,257 Times in 2,063 Posts
|
|
TOTAL waste of MY time....you can do as you see fit.....
Randy
|
The Following User Likes This Post:
|
|
03-28-2017, 11:52 AM
|
|
Member
|
|
|
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: DPRK (CA)
Posts: 1,498
Likes: 368
Liked 1,273 Times in 466 Posts
|
|
I do, and I only do it once every 10 reloadings, if the brass is still around by then. Having brass that is the same length means I can seat and crimp in one operation, and the crimp is very consistent and you know what that means. With my reloads, I also very rarely experience a failure to fire, like less than one in 10,000. Did I mention I also clean my primer pockets out real good.
|
The Following User Likes This Post:
|
|
03-28-2017, 11:53 AM
|
|
Member
|
|
|
Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: Mpls, Minnesota
Posts: 867
Likes: 87
Liked 967 Times in 398 Posts
|
|
never trim straight wall pistol cases. Only trim rifle brass.
|
The Following User Likes This Post:
|
|
03-28-2017, 11:58 AM
|
Member
|
|
|
Join Date: Apr 2013
Location: Minnesota
Posts: 1,545
Likes: 2,636
Liked 2,268 Times in 863 Posts
|
|
I load 9mm, 38 spl, 357 mag, 44 mag and 45 AR.
Have never trimmed a handgun case.
|
03-28-2017, 11:59 AM
|
|
Member
|
|
|
Join Date: Mar 2013
Location: Central Kentucky
Posts: 3,090
Likes: 11,426
Liked 5,133 Times in 1,952 Posts
|
|
Every once in a while I trim some of my .357 brass, usually only after several warm loads have been fired in them. Nothing else seems to grow enough to matter.
|
The Following User Likes This Post:
|
|
03-28-2017, 12:05 PM
|
Member
|
|
|
Join Date: Jan 2012
Posts: 599
Likes: 96
Liked 868 Times in 340 Posts
|
|
I never trim pistol brass, only rifle brass. I have been reloading some of the same 44 mag brass for over 30 years without ever trimming it. I only shoot mild loads, I see no reason to hot rod anything.
|
03-28-2017, 12:36 PM
|
|
Member
|
|
|
Join Date: Dec 2012
Location: (outside) Charleston, SC
Posts: 30,986
Likes: 41,646
Liked 29,236 Times in 13,822 Posts
|
|
Mixed brass....
To make a batch of mixed brass more uniform for better crimping, you can trim them ONCE.
__________________
"He was kinda funny lookin'"
|
The Following User Likes This Post:
|
|
03-28-2017, 12:57 PM
|
Member
|
|
|
Join Date: Dec 2013
Location: Central Indiana
Posts: 1,868
Likes: 1,762
Liked 1,284 Times in 694 Posts
|
|
Back when revolvers were "King" and I shot on the department pistol team (PPC), I loaded all my own competition ammo. I kept that brass separate and painstakingly kept it all trimmed to length. That was a lifetime ago-sigh :-(. I do trim all my rifle brass, test trimmed 100 pieces of 45ACP once, but saw no noticeable difference; so I don't trim my 9mm, 40 S&W or 45 ACP brass. Since I deprime and wet tumble all my brass, I don't have to clean primer pockets any more and my presses stay cleaner too :-)
|
03-28-2017, 01:02 PM
|
|
US Veteran
|
|
|
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: The wet side of Oregon
Posts: 6,292
Likes: 8,814
Liked 7,785 Times in 2,377 Posts
|
|
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ballistic147
I trim all my once fired 223/5.56 brass as I find some of it to be longer than spec. I also trim all 38 Special, 357 Mag and 44 Mag once fired brass. I've seen it vary as much as .010" between the same headstamps. Trimming everything to the same length gives me a more precise crimp, especially on the revolver rounds where I'm using a roll crimp. On my full house 357's and 44's I use a heavy roll crimp and a .010" longer case is enough to cause problems by crushing the case. Once they're all trimmed it will be quite a few reloads before they need to be trimmed again.
I've never trimmed any of my semi auto pistol rounds that get a light taper crimp and don't have any problems. Actually those rounds don't get a true crimp but just removing the flare.
|
^^^Exactly^^^
__________________
-jwk-
US Army '72-'95
|
03-28-2017, 01:41 PM
|
|
Member
|
|
|
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Palmyra, VA
Posts: 1,226
Likes: 0
Liked 171 Times in 49 Posts
|
|
Not all, but certainly some...
9mm and 45ACP that I load on Dillon 1050s I never trim. They split from wear before their length becomes an issue.
However, 38 Special, 357 Magnum, 45 Colt and 500 Linebaugh I do. I load them all on a Bonanza Co-Ax press, trim them to a consistent length with a RCBS Trim Pro and load them very carefully for maximum accuracy. Over the years I've learned never to seat and crimp in the same operation, but rather seat and then crimp in two separate steps. If the case length is not consistent, then the crimp is not consistent which DRAMATICALLY and negatively impacts accuracy.
The only exception to this is my 45 Colt practice ammo that I shoot in my 25-5s. I use Laser Cast 250 grain RN FP. Because of this bullet's generous crimp groove, I can get a very consistent OAL and crimp in a single step, IF the cases are all of a consistent length. The accuracy of this load is uniformily excellent in every 45 Colt revolver I own.
Keith
|
The Following User Likes This Post:
|
|
03-28-2017, 01:54 PM
|
Member
|
|
|
Join Date: Feb 2006
Posts: 1,535
Likes: 317
Liked 799 Times in 397 Posts
|
|
on .454 .445 & .44 to lesser extent , some jacketed bullets do not have a real deep cannelure. To get a heavy crimp requires a consistent case length.
The 40 to 60k psi cartridges do see same case length growth. I would think the guys reloading near max load 460's with multiple reloadings would see this too.
|
03-28-2017, 02:07 PM
|
|
Member
|
|
|
Join Date: Nov 2011
Location: Baton Rouge, La.
Posts: 6,874
Likes: 7,481
Liked 8,130 Times in 3,678 Posts
|
|
Technically , I guess you should do it once , to get all those revolver roll crimps consistent . And it would be good to have all your semi-auto cases the same length. But I sorta view trimming cases in the same way I do flossing my teeth. I should do it....But I don't.
One day I'll get a round tuitt and do it.
|
03-28-2017, 02:08 PM
|
|
Member
|
|
|
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 720
Likes: 72
Liked 643 Times in 209 Posts
|
|
Revolver cases for consistent crimping. Pistol cases, no.
|
The Following User Likes This Post:
|
|
03-28-2017, 02:18 PM
|
|
US Veteran
|
|
|
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: illinois
Posts: 6,296
Likes: 1,850
Liked 6,685 Times in 2,117 Posts
|
|
I do not and have not in 40 years.
|
03-28-2017, 02:31 PM
|
Member
|
|
|
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Anchorage, Alaska
Posts: 321
Likes: 146
Liked 122 Times in 74 Posts
|
|
I trim 45 ACP, but only because I roll crimp it in revolvers
|
03-28-2017, 03:00 PM
|
Member
|
|
|
Join Date: Oct 2006
Posts: 5,781
Likes: 1,239
Liked 5,837 Times in 2,364 Posts
|
|
Back in my reloading days, I found firing .357s out of several different makes of revolvers- S&W, Dan Wesson, Colt , Ruger-required regular trimming.
|
03-28-2017, 03:52 PM
|
Member
|
|
|
Join Date: Nov 2014
Location: Triad NC
Posts: 389
Likes: 689
Liked 753 Times in 169 Posts
|
|
No never... a waste of my time...
|
03-28-2017, 07:45 PM
|
Member
|
|
|
Join Date: Sep 2016
Location: North Texas
Posts: 804
Likes: 86
Liked 482 Times in 300 Posts
|
|
Quote:
Thomasino wrote:
Just wondering how many people actually trim their pistol brass.
|
For .25ACP, 9mm and .45ACP, no.
I do trim .38 Special if I plan to crimp the bullet because having all the brass the same length makes for more consistent crimps.
|
03-28-2017, 07:45 PM
|
|
Member
|
|
|
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Puget Sound
Posts: 616
Likes: 578
Liked 802 Times in 287 Posts
|
|
Waste of time.
|
03-28-2017, 07:47 PM
|
SWCA Member
|
|
|
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Michigan
Posts: 7,863
Likes: 11,830
Liked 13,811 Times in 3,357 Posts
|
|
Never have, never will.
|
The Following User Likes This Post:
|
|
03-29-2017, 03:58 AM
|
|
Member
|
|
|
Join Date: Oct 2014
Location: South Louisiana
Posts: 5,346
Likes: 11,606
Liked 9,019 Times in 3,193 Posts
|
|
I'm in the "trim revolver brass for more consistent crimps" camp myself. I've seen 357 and 44 Mag brass grow in length over the course of several reloadings and the growth isn't consistent between all cases in a certain lot of brass. So after every 5-10 loadings I will run them through my dial caliper after cleaning and resizing to see what variation I have in OAL, as well as checking the brass thoroughly for any damage. If it varies more than 5-10 thousandths I will trim the whole lot back to the trim to length.
For autoloader cases, I've never seen that brass grow or shrink significantly and never even check it except for looking for damaged brass.
|
03-29-2017, 04:18 AM
|
|
Member
|
|
|
Join Date: Mar 2017
Location: NWI
Posts: 6
Likes: 0
Liked 31 Times in 3 Posts
|
|
As stated in ne of the very first posts, the only time I have ever trimmed was specifically for my Model 52's and Colt NM MKIII wadcutter guns. Otherwise in 18 years of reloading no pistol brass has ever been trimmed.
I will say this though, some of my .50AE brass is reaching max lengths after several firings. But even that will get tossed b4 I trim since I have so much and my time is more valuable
|
03-29-2017, 06:03 AM
|
|
Member
|
|
|
Join Date: Apr 2006
Posts: 17,800
Likes: 7,843
Liked 25,705 Times in 8,685 Posts
|
|
NOPE! Don't even own a trimmer. I have loaded Brass so many times I've lost count - never have any FTF. On high powered Rifle cases it's a different story though.
Most of my reloads are on the lighter side. I see not need to beat up the gun or myself (I do shoot often) just to punch holes in paper. I do practice with stiff carry loads when shooting my EDC, but for target shooting, lighter loads are all I need. It is very easy on the Brass too and it never needs to be trimmed.
|
03-29-2017, 06:32 AM
|
|
US Veteran
|
|
|
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Augusta, GA
Posts: 6,125
Likes: 6,652
Liked 6,168 Times in 2,672 Posts
|
|
If you have not jammed a case mouth in a revolver cylinder, you are fortunate. Back in my youth, I had stuck cases in 357 and 44 mag revolvers that were loaded to the max. (OH! to have young wrists and eyes again).
After those experiences, I trim all my 357 and 44 mag brass once in the fired state to 0.015" less than minimum case length. If the trimming is done before resizing, the cutter pilot turns easily. When the case is resized, the length is at or near minimum. The case will crack and fail before it needs trimming again. This also makes for consistent crimps.
I don't trim semi-auto calibers, and do trim all my bottle neck rifle brass.
__________________
S&WHF 366
|
The Following User Likes This Post:
|
|
03-29-2017, 08:06 AM
|
Member
|
|
|
Join Date: Mar 2017
Location: Wapakoneta Ohio
Posts: 6
Likes: 14
Liked 3 Times in 2 Posts
|
|
Joining the chorus of "no", I've haven't rimmed handgun cases ever. I do have a case trimmer bought when I was shooting a .243 quite a bit, but haven't used it on other calibers.
|
03-29-2017, 09:32 AM
|
|
US Veteran
|
|
|
Join Date: Jan 2013
Location: Shell Knob Missouri
Posts: 236
Likes: 196
Liked 202 Times in 81 Posts
|
|
I don't and at this point I doubt that anyone could convince me that it would be a good idea.
__________________
USAF Retired/VN Vet
|
03-29-2017, 09:40 AM
|
|
Absent Comrade
|
|
|
Join Date: Mar 2015
Location: Alabama
Posts: 4,091
Likes: 9,379
Liked 12,841 Times in 2,905 Posts
|
|
Quote:
Originally Posted by Thomasino
Just wondering how many people actually trim their pistol brass. I bought an RCBS hand trimmer but haven't used it in about 4 years. I mainly used it for my rifle brass, but haven't really needed to lately because the only rifle brass I reload is .223 ammo and just check it with a Lyman case gauge and it never seems to have a size problem. As far as pistol brass goes, I generally stick with revolvers for reloading and the rimmed case doesn't need any trimming in my opinion. Some Reloaders I suppose get very particular and trim everything to specs, just wondering what most people do as far as trimming goes?
Sent from my Moto G (4) using Tapatalk
|
Nobody trims pistol brass, it's against the law. :-)
Have a blessed day,
Leon
|
03-29-2017, 09:44 AM
|
Member
|
|
|
Join Date: Mar 2015
Location: New Hampshire
Posts: 258
Likes: 34
Liked 152 Times in 85 Posts
|
|
Quote:
Originally Posted by rwsmith
To make a batch of mixed brass more uniform for better crimping, you can trim them ONCE.
|
+1 good advice. I trim for batch uniformity both my 44 mag (Desert Eagle) and my 460 S&W mag. Both require stout crimps.
|
03-29-2017, 01:14 PM
|
Member
|
|
|
Join Date: Mar 2017
Posts: 88
Likes: 13
Liked 70 Times in 35 Posts
|
|
I am just a casual weekly shooter and don't mind the subtle length differences between my pistol brass, and I roll crimp most of it. I don't shoot competitively.
Sent from my Moto G (4) using Tapatalk
|
03-30-2017, 09:22 PM
|
Member
|
|
|
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Wilmington, NC
Posts: 1,018
Likes: 174
Liked 677 Times in 311 Posts
|
|
Most brass revolver and pistol brass (especially for semi-auto) shrink rather than grow. I use Starline brass and it starts out shorter than minimum and never seems to get any longer.
My gunsmith and I argue but I really, really belief the 1911 does not headspace. It is held by the extractor.
|
03-31-2017, 07:30 PM
|
Member
|
|
|
Join Date: Jun 2015
Location: Montana
Posts: 406
Likes: 102
Liked 300 Times in 160 Posts
|
|
I do my 357mag and 44mag brass, as well as my 38spl and 44spl brass. They interchange between carbines and revolvers, and I prefer the crimp to be perfect on each round. I don't trim my semiauto pistol brass, never seem so to stay around long enough for me to bother. My rifle brass will get trimmed, but that's for my OCD with hunting handloads.
|
04-01-2017, 11:37 AM
|
|
Member
|
|
|
Join Date: Jan 2014
Location: Southern New Jersey
Posts: 867
Likes: 97
Liked 400 Times in 179 Posts
|
|
Used to
I have trimmers for most calibers the revolver isn't
fussy about oa length the autos are but I just measure oal
on every 30 to 40 rounds and make sure oal is on the short side
never had any problems except one time I loaded My Sig .357
with round nose 115 gr bullets well not thinking they would be longer than the flat nose 124 gr I did they just stuck in the magazine I repressed them and were fine after
The .308's and .223 's I use a case gauge on everyone
|
04-02-2017, 10:16 PM
|
Member
|
|
|
Join Date: Dec 2016
Posts: 2
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
|
|
Yes, when needed.
Same length on a reloaded batch equals predictable results. If you roll crimp and have brass of variable length you will get erratic velocity results. Can also damage brass in crimp process. Those who blow off trimming as unnecessary in my view do not have the temperament of a reloader. Quick and dirty without regards to results or reason is out of place here. Size and measure a batch of cases. If they are within .005 of each other, you can get away without trimming. Recheck length in your batch every 3 firings. Remember, the longer they grow the more you must back off your crimp die. Once trimmed to recommended trim length, your batch may be good fore the life of the case, just do the .005 check every 3 firings. Trim as required. Erratic lengrh can also affect taper crimping. For any given die setting, the longer the case the tighter it will crimp, eventually creasing the bullet. Those who dont have the patience to do it right will not be able to explain why performance or accuracy issues occur. This is because they really dont know what they have. Sorry for the rant, this is only my opinion, would like for you to enjoy the hobby and take pride in your results.
|
04-02-2017, 10:48 PM
|
Member
|
|
|
Join Date: Feb 2017
Location: Middle Georgia
Posts: 101
Likes: 124
Liked 75 Times in 40 Posts
|
|
No argument with what you said. When I load for 100% accuracy then yep I will trim. If I were swapping out revolver/rifle loads yep i would trim. When I load up 1000 38spl loads strictly for plinking, cans, punching paper, no. Can I kill a snake with it at 10 yards? You bet. My hunting loads get trimmed. All depends on what I'm doing.
Sent from my SM-G935V using Tapatalk
|
04-05-2017, 07:20 PM
|
|
US Veteran
|
|
|
Join Date: Jan 2015
Location: NC
Posts: 86
Likes: 22
Liked 61 Times in 37 Posts
|
|
yes when trying out new powders to get consistent results on the chrony but for target shooting? not really needed but i like to start from the same place with every load.
|
04-06-2017, 11:09 AM
|
Member
|
|
|
Join Date: Mar 2017
Posts: 88
Likes: 13
Liked 70 Times in 35 Posts
|
|
If you trim your brass, what unit do you use to trim with?
Sent from my Moto G (4) using Tapatalk
|
04-06-2017, 12:08 PM
|
Member
|
|
|
Join Date: Feb 2015
Posts: 713
Likes: 129
Liked 719 Times in 327 Posts
|
|
I use this one:
Lyman Universal Trimmer with Power Adapter
So far it has worked well. I like the power adapter for larger batches. You can use it with a small drill or if you get creative you can rig it up to work on a drill press. For small batches I just use the hand crank. I've run about 3k 223/5.56 cases through it set up in the drill press and once you get it dialed in it's very accurate. All my cases have come out +/- .001" which is fine for me. Not saying there's not better options but it works good for the money.
|
04-06-2017, 05:53 PM
|
|
Member
|
|
|
Join Date: Jun 2012
Location: Maryland
Posts: 959
Likes: 652
Liked 549 Times in 293 Posts
|
|
Quote:
Originally Posted by rwsmith
To make a batch of mixed brass more uniform for better crimping, you can trim them ONCE.
|
I need a clarification!
If I only use same headstamp, same number of firings brass per batch, and the fired and resized case lengths vary .....can I get a waiver to trim my brass a second or third time?
__________________
I'd like to agree with you BUT
|
04-06-2017, 06:19 PM
|
|
Member
|
|
|
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: CSRA
Posts: 2,125
Likes: 869
Liked 1,629 Times in 779 Posts
|
|
l trim my brass like l trim my toe nails---When they get too long...
|
The Following User Likes This Post:
|
|
04-06-2017, 06:31 PM
|
|
Member
|
|
|
Join Date: Jun 2012
Location: Maryland
Posts: 959
Likes: 652
Liked 549 Times in 293 Posts
|
|
You all gotta remember, progressive presses are hardly conducive to trimming brass, or even measuring after resizing.
For the sake of efficiency, "Close enough" is often the trend.
__________________
I'd like to agree with you BUT
|
The Following User Likes This Post:
|
|
04-06-2017, 10:13 PM
|
Member
|
|
|
Join Date: Nov 2016
Location: Michigan; 86W, 46N
Posts: 48
Likes: 103
Liked 28 Times in 16 Posts
|
|
Well, I'm real new at this and I just finished trimming a bunch of fired 38spl brass that I purchased from a LEO up the road. 300 cases didn't take me that long and honestly I feel a lot better knowing that I have a good starting point for my reloading. I used an original Forster case trimmer without any power assist and once I picked up a rhythm, I kind of enjoyed the quiet time.
A while back I was playing around with some spent cases of my own and I was surprised at the different lengths I found. As I was thinking through the process, and I came to the seating and crimping point, I decided that a consistent case length was best.
Now that I have that length logged in, I'll watch those cases in subsequent reloads, and make decisions from there. I don't own all that many guns, so other variables will be at a minimum. I don't know much, but I know repeatability is key.
BZimm
__________________
I'm accountable for my actions
|
The Following 2 Users Like Post:
|
|
04-07-2017, 07:46 AM
|
Member
|
|
|
Join Date: Mar 2017
Posts: 88
Likes: 13
Liked 70 Times in 35 Posts
|
|
When I buy brass I always get Starline and it comes already sized and the same length. All the crimping seems to be quite similar and the firings all seem to be the same. I never have a problem with case length with the same Starline brass. I'm not a competitive shooter but basically just enjoy target shooting with my friends at the range so minute differences don't make a difference to me anyway.
Sent from my Moto G (4) using Tapatalk
|
|
|
Posting Rules
|
|
|
|
|