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Old 04-12-2017, 11:49 AM
ontargetagain ontargetagain is offline
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Chambering problem in Shield 45 with Berry's THP bullet Chambering problem in Shield 45 with Berry's THP bullet Chambering problem in Shield 45 with Berry's THP bullet Chambering problem in Shield 45 with Berry's THP bullet Chambering problem in Shield 45 with Berry's THP bullet  
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Default Chambering problem in Shield 45 with Berry's THP bullet

So far my Shield 45 has been wonderful and exceeds my expectations. I have shot factory 230 RN FMJ and Extreme 200gr SWC plated with not a single issue.

However the other day I picked up some Berry's Target Hollow Points, 200gr bullets. Berry's lists max OAL at 1.275, I loaded to 1.1950, they dropped in the Lyman case gauge easily, they fired in my friends Ruger 1911 as well as another 1911.

Attempted to chamber in the first round into my Shield and the slide did not go into full battery and jammed pretty tight. I ejected the round, inspected and tried another with the same result. Looking closer there was noticeable scuffing on the edge where the tape of the nose meets the straight wall of the side. I thought maybe there could have been too much crimp and it expanded the bullet at this point being a plated bullet but I measured and they were still .451 at the edge. I pulled the barrel from the shield and sure enough they don't drop in, I tried another dummy round at max COL and kept seating deeper, but even then when I got it flush with the hood of the barrel it didn't 'plunk' in and it was pretty short at this point.

These reloads shot fine out of my 625 45acp revolver.

It's just not making sense to me on the 'why' part, a little help please on this issue.
Thanks
Karl

**I want to thank the kind folks at Berry's for the quick follow up phone call to respond to my email. Impressive customer service for sure. Thank you Jason from Berry's Bullets!**

Last edited by ontargetagain; 04-12-2017 at 11:49 PM.
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Old 04-12-2017, 01:32 PM
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Chambering problem in Shield 45 with Berry's THP bullet Chambering problem in Shield 45 with Berry's THP bullet Chambering problem in Shield 45 with Berry's THP bullet Chambering problem in Shield 45 with Berry's THP bullet Chambering problem in Shield 45 with Berry's THP bullet  
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Originally Posted by ontargetagain View Post
So far my Shield 45 has been wonderful and exceeds my expectations. I have shot factory 230 RN FMJ and Extreme 200gr SWC plated with not a single issue.

However the other day I picked up some Berry's Target Hollow Points, 200gr bullets. Berry's lists max OAL at 1.275, I loaded to 1.1950, they dropped in the Lyman case gauge easily, they fired in my friends Ruger 1911 as well as another 1911.

Attempted to chamber in the first round into my Shield and the slide did not go into full battery and jammed pretty tight. I ejected the round, inspected and tried another with the same result. Looking closer there was noticeable scuffing on the edge where the tape of the nose meets the straight wall of the side. I thought maybe there could have been too much crimp and it expanded the bullet at this point being a plated bullet but I measured and they were still .451 at the edge. I pulled the barrel from the shield and sure enough they don't drop in, I tried another dummy round at max COL and kept seating deeper, but even then when I got it flush with the hood of the barrel it didn't 'plunk' in and it was pretty short at this point.

These reloads shot fine out of my 625 45acp revolver.

Forget the case quage, and other guns. Also the Berry Max COL (That is SAAMI spec) Berry does not give load data

but even then when I got it flush with the hood of the barrel it didn't 'plunk' in and it was pretty short at this point.


It's just not making sense to me on the 'why' part, a little help please on this issue.
Thanks
Karl

What length is that??

I have not used that specific bullet but similar and you COL should be around 1.20 to 1.205 with a taper crimp at say .470 at the case mouth.

If you try to plunk even with shorter length and not have a taper crimp on it will not chamber.

Sometimes it only takes a teeny tiny bit of wither the seating or crimp.
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Old 04-12-2017, 02:09 PM
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Chambering problem in Shield 45 with Berry's THP bullet Chambering problem in Shield 45 with Berry's THP bullet Chambering problem in Shield 45 with Berry's THP bullet Chambering problem in Shield 45 with Berry's THP bullet Chambering problem in Shield 45 with Berry's THP bullet  
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It's probably a combination of little things adding up. The one thing I've noticed in these guns is little or no throat and a snug chamber.
The no throat has the chamber ending and the rifling starting , that's why the rounds will fit the chamber gauge but will not fit in this gun. Try to find a bullet similar in profile and diameter to the factory bullets that do function. I have a tight 45 acp that will not chamber any ammo loaded with a bullet over .451 ". Sized .452 and it's a no go, size that same bullet .451 and they will function.
Another solution is to have the barrel throated , this will give you some more room to work with.
Gary
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Old 04-12-2017, 02:19 PM
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Chambering problem in Shield 45 with Berry's THP bullet Chambering problem in Shield 45 with Berry's THP bullet Chambering problem in Shield 45 with Berry's THP bullet Chambering problem in Shield 45 with Berry's THP bullet Chambering problem in Shield 45 with Berry's THP bullet  
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Any time there is a fit problem, measure! Measure the diameter of the cartridge in question to see where it is too big. Measure the cartridge after each step of the process to determine when the problem arises. and use the barrel of your gun as a "gauge". If diameters are in tolerence, mark the bullet and case, insert it into the chamber and remove to see where the cartridge is too big...
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Old 04-12-2017, 04:27 PM
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Chambering problem in Shield 45 with Berry's THP bullet Chambering problem in Shield 45 with Berry's THP bullet Chambering problem in Shield 45 with Berry's THP bullet Chambering problem in Shield 45 with Berry's THP bullet Chambering problem in Shield 45 with Berry's THP bullet  
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Default I had a similar problem....

Quote:
Originally Posted by ontargetagain View Post
So far my Shield 45 has been wonderful and exceeds my expectations. I have shot factory 230 RN FMJ and Extreme 200gr SWC plated with not a single issue.

However the other day I picked up some Berry's Target Hollow Points, 200gr bullets. Berry's lists max OAL at 1.275, I loaded to 1.1950, they dropped in the Lyman case gauge easily, they fired in my friends Ruger 1911 as well as another 1911.

Attempted to chamber in the first round into my Shield and the slide did not go into full battery and jammed pretty tight. I ejected the round, inspected and tried another with the same result. Looking closer there was noticeable scuffing on the edge where the tape of the nose meets the straight wall of the side. I thought maybe there could have been too much crimp and it expanded the bullet at this point being a plated bullet but I measured and they were still .451 at the edge. I pulled the barrel from the shield and sure enough they don't drop in, I tried another dummy round at max COL and kept seating deeper, but even then when I got it flush with the hood of the barrel it didn't 'plunk' in and it was pretty short at this point.

These reloads shot fine out of my 625 45acp revolver.

It's just not making sense to me on the 'why' part, a little help please on this issue.
Thanks
Karl
I had the same problem with some 9mm bullets in compact guns due to short chambers and bullets without a profile that was tapered enough. I'll save you the grief and suggest that you load them shorter, almost to minimum length if necessary.

Talk about SHORT AOL. I finally found that it was recommended to load these to 1.06". That's .06" over SAAMI minumum for the cartridge. I actually had to load them even shorter to get them to run, trouble free. There were some defects in the coating that would cause interference even at this short length. No more of those bullets for me.

Getting reloads that would run in my various guns, compact, full size, even carbine takes a combination of AOL and powder charge to work in all of them that varies widely with the type of bullet I use..

PS: I know how it feels to have a large percentage of rounds short of going into battery by about 1/16" but be so jammed into the lands of the barrel that it takes a LOT to get them ejected, sometimes even pulling the bullet. Doesn't make for a fun time at the range.
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Old 04-12-2017, 09:33 PM
ontargetagain ontargetagain is offline
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Chambering problem in Shield 45 with Berry's THP bullet Chambering problem in Shield 45 with Berry's THP bullet Chambering problem in Shield 45 with Berry's THP bullet Chambering problem in Shield 45 with Berry's THP bullet Chambering problem in Shield 45 with Berry's THP bullet  
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Rule3
Gary
Mikld
rwsmith

You guys are pretty much spot on with your understanding of the issue and how to correct it. A phone call from Jason at Berry's that I missed but he was kind enough to leave a message agrees that the COL for this bullet was too long and yes the bullet was impeding into the lands/grooves which was the hang up.
I ended up seating a dummy round to 1.114 to get it to plunk and sit properly in my barrel. A lot of this was my fault as my Hodgdon reload info for a Speer JHP was 1.155 that I overlooked 'duh'

Ahhhhhhh the learning curve is fun! Thanks to all of you for chiming in, great info. This Shield is my first 'small gun' and apparently things are different as mentioned by rwsmith in compact guns as far as where the lands/grooves are in relation to the indexing of the cartridge mouth.

And by the way, these were my first rounds load up with IMR Target powder and so far I really like the stuff, clean burning, lower felt recoil and a nice fill in volume in the cartridge and meters pretty well in my cheapie Lee powder drop.
Once again, thank you all for the help
Karl

Last edited by ontargetagain; 04-12-2017 at 09:35 PM.
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Old 04-12-2017, 10:14 PM
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Chambering problem in Shield 45 with Berry's THP bullet Chambering problem in Shield 45 with Berry's THP bullet Chambering problem in Shield 45 with Berry's THP bullet Chambering problem in Shield 45 with Berry's THP bullet Chambering problem in Shield 45 with Berry's THP bullet  
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Default Glad you got it....

This points to that fact that compact or subcompact guns have little tolerance for variations in ammo. Being primarily for SD, loading a cartridge to SAAMI specs isn't a guarantee that it is going to work well. For SD a round that's PROVEN to work in THAT GUN is vitally important.

RN being usually the most universally reliable bullet, I loaded those smallball jobs and expected them to work no problem. It ended up taking about a month to get to the bottom of the problem. Like I said, even loading at the recommend AOL I immediately ran into bad trouble, prying cartridges out of the chambers. Not a fun way to shoot.
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Old 04-12-2017, 10:48 PM
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Chambering problem in Shield 45 with Berry's THP bullet Chambering problem in Shield 45 with Berry's THP bullet Chambering problem in Shield 45 with Berry's THP bullet Chambering problem in Shield 45 with Berry's THP bullet Chambering problem in Shield 45 with Berry's THP bullet  
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Originally Posted by rwsmith View Post
This points to that fact that compact or subcompact guns have little tolerance for variations in ammo. Being primarily for SD, loading a cartridge to SAAMI specs isn't a guarantee that it is going to work well. For SD a round that's PROVEN to work in THAT GUN is vitally important.

RN being usually the most universally reliable bullet, I loaded those smallball jobs and expected them to work no problem. It ended up taking about a month to get to the bottom of the problem. Like I said, even loading at the recommend AOL I immediately ran into bad trouble, prying cartridges out of the chambers. Not a fun way to shoot.
Yes on knowing for sure your SD gun is reliable with the ammo you have in it. Unfortunately SD ammo is really pricey so I often wonder how many folks just assume it it going to work when they need it to vs have run at least 100 rounds of it through the gun. I see some of those fancy bullets like the R.I.P and wonder if they are reliable feeders or not. Very cool bullet I must say.

That was the first time I had a slide jam up though I primarily shoot revolvers so it is likely more common than I know of. I walked out of the shooting stall and got an experienced range officer who had seen it before and cleared it for me, of which I had to do the second time when I tried to feed the next round LOL
This all was a good lesson for me, the jam, the problem and resolve.
Karl
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Old 04-13-2017, 09:56 AM
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Chambering problem in Shield 45 with Berry's THP bullet Chambering problem in Shield 45 with Berry's THP bullet Chambering problem in Shield 45 with Berry's THP bullet Chambering problem in Shield 45 with Berry's THP bullet Chambering problem in Shield 45 with Berry's THP bullet  
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Now a concerning thought about ending up at 1.114 for bullet depth to make this work in the Shield. Sure it not plunks in nicely but am I going to create too much internal pressure now? I am going to give Berry's a call and inquire. Might simply be the wrong bullet to use in this gun.
I'll update when I speak to them..............
Karl
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Old 04-13-2017, 12:28 PM
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Chambering problem in Shield 45 with Berry's THP bullet Chambering problem in Shield 45 with Berry's THP bullet Chambering problem in Shield 45 with Berry's THP bullet Chambering problem in Shield 45 with Berry's THP bullet Chambering problem in Shield 45 with Berry's THP bullet  
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Originally Posted by ontargetagain View Post
Now a concerning thought about ending up at 1.114 for bullet depth to make this work in the Shield. Sure it not plunks in nicely but am I going to create too much internal pressure now? I am going to give Berry's a call and inquire. Might simply be the wrong bullet to use in this gun.
I'll update when I speak to them..............
Karl
If your charge is a maximum one drop back to a mid range , or starting load if that makes you feel better, and work back up .
If you are not loading a maximum charge, lets say your load is halfway between starting and max. , a little shorter OAL is not going to cause a huge spike in pressure. It will go up but should not be catistrophic , a mid or start load will keep you out of trouble.
Gary
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Old 04-13-2017, 01:22 PM
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Chambering problem in Shield 45 with Berry's THP bullet Chambering problem in Shield 45 with Berry's THP bullet Chambering problem in Shield 45 with Berry's THP bullet Chambering problem in Shield 45 with Berry's THP bullet Chambering problem in Shield 45 with Berry's THP bullet  
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Originally Posted by gwpercle View Post
If your charge is a maximum one drop back to a mid range , or starting load if that makes you feel better, and work back up .
If you are not loading a maximum charge, lets say your load is halfway between starting and max. , a little shorter OAL is not going to cause a huge spike in pressure. It will go up but should not be catistrophic , a mid or start load will keep you out of trouble.
Gary
I have room from Max load Gary. After talking to Berry's it was suggested to fire a few and inspect for any signs of high pressures. I will probably just work these through the Shield the 50 or so I have loaded and use another bullet better designed to fit the barrel throat of this gun. I'm usually a slightly above minimum load to 2/3rd's of max. This was a good learning experience overall for me
Thanks much for all your input as well as the others too
Karl
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Old 04-13-2017, 02:15 PM
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Chambering problem in Shield 45 with Berry's THP bullet Chambering problem in Shield 45 with Berry's THP bullet Chambering problem in Shield 45 with Berry's THP bullet Chambering problem in Shield 45 with Berry's THP bullet Chambering problem in Shield 45 with Berry's THP bullet  
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There is very little that one can tell about over pressure in handgun ammo. Kinda like reading tea leaves, Usually the only tell is a major failure!!. You can not read primers. Some revolvers perhaps hard extraction but in a semi, not so much.

Even though you may not be using Accurate powder they tested the same bullet and see what there COL is.

Flat nose or similar HP bullets are going to be shorter than a typical longer nose 9mm bullet, The pointy end of those bullets will fit the barrel better than a short fat profile.
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Old 04-13-2017, 02:42 PM
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Chambering problem in Shield 45 with Berry's THP bullet Chambering problem in Shield 45 with Berry's THP bullet Chambering problem in Shield 45 with Berry's THP bullet Chambering problem in Shield 45 with Berry's THP bullet Chambering problem in Shield 45 with Berry's THP bullet  
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Default It wouldn't hurt to drop back....

It wouldn't hurt to drop back on the powder load, and work it back up in .2 gr increments.

I think this is better loading procedure than 'try it and see what happens'.
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Old 04-13-2017, 02:53 PM
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Chambering problem in Shield 45 with Berry's THP bullet Chambering problem in Shield 45 with Berry's THP bullet Chambering problem in Shield 45 with Berry's THP bullet Chambering problem in Shield 45 with Berry's THP bullet Chambering problem in Shield 45 with Berry's THP bullet  
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Quote:
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There is very little that one can tell about over pressure in handgun ammo. Kinda like reading tea leaves, Usually the only tell is a major failure!!. You can not read primers. Some revolvers perhaps hard extraction but in a semi, not so much.

Even though you may not be using Accurate powder they tested the same bullet and see what there COL is.

Flat nose or similar HP bullets are going to be shorter than a typical longer nose 9mm bullet, The pointy end of those bullets will fit the barrel better than a short fat profile.
I don't see the Berry's THP bullet on the Western Powder web data but the Berry's 200gr FP and HP is same profile I believe ......and it is listed at 1.205 OAL
So I am at 1.114. I don't know the correlation of pressure increase due to this so it is not worth taking the chance. Thanks for making me think it again I might get lucky with one or two or three and the fourth or fifth might be the end of luck...........and luck with reloading isn't an area I wish to chance

Heck, I think I will just pull the 50 rounds I made up and break them back down and load them up for my revolver at the 1.205. At least now I fully understand the situation that created the problem and it is of no fault of S&W or Berry's but a responsibility of the reloader to understand and it was a 'first' for me to deal with and I take it as a good lesson and one that will make me more aware with any load on a new gun.

And I know nothing about reading Tea leaves? LOL
Karl
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