Smith & Wesson Forum

Go Back   Smith & Wesson Forum > >


Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old 04-19-2017, 06:02 PM
Triggernosis Triggernosis is offline
Member
How deep to set a SWC without a crimp groove? How deep to set a SWC without a crimp groove? How deep to set a SWC without a crimp groove? How deep to set a SWC without a crimp groove? How deep to set a SWC without a crimp groove?  
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Wilson, NC
Posts: 653
Likes: 47
Liked 88 Times in 64 Posts
Default How deep to set a SWC without a crimp groove?

Specifically this one: Hornady .358 swchp - Google Search
The Hornady manual only gives a minimum OAL for .357 Magnum and that would put the bullet well down into the case past the knurled section.
__________________
Tom
Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old 04-19-2017, 06:16 PM
Hang-Fire Hank Hang-Fire Hank is online now
Member
How deep to set a SWC without a crimp groove? How deep to set a SWC without a crimp groove? How deep to set a SWC without a crimp groove? How deep to set a SWC without a crimp groove? How deep to set a SWC without a crimp groove?  
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Central AZ
Posts: 309
Likes: 5
Liked 193 Times in 89 Posts
Default NOT A GOOD IDEA

I wouldn't shoot a 357 thru either a revolver or tube fed rifle if the bullet hadn't been crimped at the case mouth. Not sure about a heavy taper crimp. Maybe that would work, but test carefully.

Guaranteed without a crimp, the unfired bullets remaining in your rev chambers will move forward, possibly tying up the cylinder rotation. In a tube fed rifle, the recoil will dangerously push the bullets down into the cases of the remaining cartridges in the tube, creating extremely high pressure!

Hank M.
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old 04-19-2017, 06:36 PM
Triggernosis Triggernosis is offline
Member
How deep to set a SWC without a crimp groove? How deep to set a SWC without a crimp groove? How deep to set a SWC without a crimp groove? How deep to set a SWC without a crimp groove? How deep to set a SWC without a crimp groove?  
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Wilson, NC
Posts: 653
Likes: 47
Liked 88 Times in 64 Posts
Default

Perhaps I should save these bullets for plinking with the .38 then.
__________________
Tom
Reply With Quote
The Following User Likes This Post:
  #4  
Old 04-19-2017, 06:41 PM
Bosquebass's Avatar
Bosquebass Bosquebass is offline
Member
How deep to set a SWC without a crimp groove? How deep to set a SWC without a crimp groove? How deep to set a SWC without a crimp groove? How deep to set a SWC without a crimp groove? How deep to set a SWC without a crimp groove?  
Join Date: Apr 2015
Location: Ellis County, Texas
Posts: 158
Likes: 587
Liked 180 Times in 67 Posts
Default

I seat those bullets to the top of the knurled part and lightly roll crimp. I haven't had any trouble with them backing out doing it that way.
The bullets are swaged and soft so you don't want to push them too hard. Hornady 9th shows them at 950 fps max and I wouldn't push them as fast as that.
__________________
"I gots to know"

Last edited by Bosquebass; 04-19-2017 at 06:45 PM.
Reply With Quote
The Following User Likes This Post:
  #5  
Old 04-19-2017, 06:43 PM
Bosquebass's Avatar
Bosquebass Bosquebass is offline
Member
How deep to set a SWC without a crimp groove? How deep to set a SWC without a crimp groove? How deep to set a SWC without a crimp groove? How deep to set a SWC without a crimp groove? How deep to set a SWC without a crimp groove?  
Join Date: Apr 2015
Location: Ellis County, Texas
Posts: 158
Likes: 587
Liked 180 Times in 67 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Triggernosis View Post
Perhaps I should save these bullets for plinking with the .38 then.
That's where I use mine. It's a good shooting bullet at target velocities.
__________________
"I gots to know"
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old 04-19-2017, 06:47 PM
lebomm lebomm is offline
Member
How deep to set a SWC without a crimp groove? How deep to set a SWC without a crimp groove?  
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Seattle
Posts: 1,615
Likes: 27
Liked 533 Times in 317 Posts
Default

Go ahead and give 'em a moderate roll crimp with maybe .060" of knurl showing. These bullets are soft enough to allow it without buckling the case. Just make sure the OAL doesn't exceed cylinder length and keep velocity below about 1000 fps.

Larry

Last edited by lebomm; 04-19-2017 at 06:56 PM.
Reply With Quote
The Following 2 Users Like Post:
  #7  
Old 04-19-2017, 07:08 PM
H Richard's Avatar
H Richard H Richard is offline
US Veteran
How deep to set a SWC without a crimp groove? How deep to set a SWC without a crimp groove? How deep to set a SWC without a crimp groove? How deep to set a SWC without a crimp groove? How deep to set a SWC without a crimp groove?  
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: West Central IL
Posts: 15,606
Likes: 6,391
Liked 8,031 Times in 3,672 Posts
Default

That bullet is inappropriate for a magnum load. There are plenty of other bullets available. Use them for standard or target velocity 38 loads.
__________________
H Richard
SWCA1967 SWHF244
Reply With Quote
The Following User Likes This Post:
  #8  
Old 04-19-2017, 07:11 PM
rockquarry rockquarry is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Posts: 756
Likes: 2
Liked 469 Times in 276 Posts
Default

Use a taper crimp die. Seat the bullet where you want it and put just enough crimp on it to prevent movement. This will require a little experimentation, but once done, it won't have to be repeated.
Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old 04-19-2017, 07:33 PM
STORMINORMAN STORMINORMAN is offline
Member
How deep to set a SWC without a crimp groove? How deep to set a SWC without a crimp groove? How deep to set a SWC without a crimp groove? How deep to set a SWC without a crimp groove? How deep to set a SWC without a crimp groove?  
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: Pacific NW
Posts: 172
Likes: 21
Liked 45 Times in 34 Posts
Lightbulb Uh, depends upon your definition & the significance of "minimum"

Quote:
Originally Posted by Triggernosis View Post
Specifically this one: Hornady .358 swchp - Google Search
The Hornady manual only gives a minimum OAL for .357 Magnum and that would put the bullet well down into the case past the knurled section.
Significance of the "minimum" length has to do with pressure concerns.

You can load "long" to basically (within reason) whatever O.A.L. will correspond to the cannelure and "fit" in the revolver cylinder. You might loose a few f.p.s., but...

Cheers!
Reply With Quote
  #10  
Old 04-19-2017, 08:50 PM
Nevada Ed's Avatar
Nevada Ed Nevada Ed is offline
Member
How deep to set a SWC without a crimp groove? How deep to set a SWC without a crimp groove? How deep to set a SWC without a crimp groove? How deep to set a SWC without a crimp groove? How deep to set a SWC without a crimp groove?  
Join Date: Nov 2012
Location: Reno Nv
Posts: 5,704
Likes: 157
Liked 2,908 Times in 1,538 Posts
Default

I figured to let a few post before I said any thing.

First off, if you see a bullet and its body and tip...........
you should be able to figure out where it needs to "FIT" in the case.
I am not slapping hands here............. but one needs to have a basic
knowledge of the correct OAL of a bullets maximum and minimum settings.

1.58" is the maximum....
you have the minimum...........if you have ANY loading manuals.

Do what you think is right.........
it is only a stinking lead bullet.
Reply With Quote
The Following User Likes This Post:
  #11  
Old 04-19-2017, 10:00 PM
lebomm lebomm is offline
Member
How deep to set a SWC without a crimp groove? How deep to set a SWC without a crimp groove?  
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Seattle
Posts: 1,615
Likes: 27
Liked 533 Times in 317 Posts
Default

[QUOTE=STORMINORMAN;

You can load "long" to basically (within reason) whatever O.A.L. will correspond to the cannelure and "fit" in the revolver cylinder. You might loose a few f.p.s., but...


Norman; the Hornady swaged SWC has no cannelure.

Larry

Last edited by lebomm; 04-19-2017 at 10:06 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #12  
Old 04-19-2017, 11:04 PM
STORMINORMAN STORMINORMAN is offline
Member
How deep to set a SWC without a crimp groove? How deep to set a SWC without a crimp groove? How deep to set a SWC without a crimp groove? How deep to set a SWC without a crimp groove? How deep to set a SWC without a crimp groove?  
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: Pacific NW
Posts: 172
Likes: 21
Liked 45 Times in 34 Posts
Thumbs up Larry: you are 100% correct...!

Larry: You are correct, and neither does their Cowboy 140gr... Remember, the OP was talking about the bullet being "...well down in the case PAST THE KNURLED SECTION".

Nor do the majority of the many plated rounds (but not all)...

But many cast bullets do, and some even have more than one. My point was that the "minimum" is just that: if there is, as Nevada Ed points out, a "body and a tip" one should be able to see how much of the bullet actually needs to be in the case and if it does not approach the minimum for that specific bullet, just load these revolver rounds a bit "long".

Most of the time a correct and minimum expansion will provide enough neck tension that an overly aggressive roll crimp (if any) won't be needed, except in true magnum loadings.

Cheers!
Reply With Quote
  #13  
Old 04-20-2017, 01:40 AM
BruceM's Avatar
BruceM BruceM is offline
Member
How deep to set a SWC without a crimp groove? How deep to set a SWC without a crimp groove? How deep to set a SWC without a crimp groove? How deep to set a SWC without a crimp groove? How deep to set a SWC without a crimp groove?  
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: Southeast Wisconsin
Posts: 1,488
Likes: 4
Liked 406 Times in 240 Posts
Default

Quote:
Use a taper crimp die. Seat the bullet where you want it and put just enough crimp on it to prevent movement. This will require a little experimentation, but once done, it won't have to be repeated.
Taper crimp dies were never meant to be used to apply a crimp which will prevent bullet movement because taper crimps are not suited for that. They are meant to remove case mouth flare required for proper bullet seating. Seat the bullet so the shoulder is just enough below the case mouth to allow you to apply a small amount of roll crimp. This is not an unusual practice as the 173 grain Lyman 358429 must be seated and crimped in this manner in order for the loaded round to fit in the cylinder of the N-Frame S&W M27 and M28 revolvers along with their pre-model number counterparts.

This bullet is designed for low velocity loads so there is little chance of the bullet jumping the crimp if there is the proper amount of neck tension to begin with. The heavy lifting in preventing bullet setback or crimp jumping in .44 magnum and lesser rounds is provided by neck tension and not crimping. The crimp in those revolver rounds is the last line of defense not the first in preventing bullet movement. The sizing die and expander work hand in hand to accomplish this. The sizer must reduce the case diameter with all brands of brass to the point that an expander is necessary to increase the case I.D. slightly. Then an expander which is at least .002" smaller than the bullet diameter is used to open up the case I.D.. In heavy kicking rounds the expander might need to be .003" smaller than bullet diameter. Not flaring the case mouth is not a substitute for proper case neck expansion.

Bruce

Last edited by BruceM; 04-20-2017 at 02:09 AM.
Reply With Quote
  #14  
Old 04-20-2017, 05:51 AM
Engineer1911's Avatar
Engineer1911 Engineer1911 is offline
US Veteran
How deep to set a SWC without a crimp groove? How deep to set a SWC without a crimp groove? How deep to set a SWC without a crimp groove? How deep to set a SWC without a crimp groove? How deep to set a SWC without a crimp groove?  
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Augusta, GA
Posts: 4,317
Likes: 4,083
Liked 3,067 Times in 1,494 Posts
Default

Factory lead swaged bullets are so soft that a roll crimp can be used with the bullet shoulder sticking out of the case mouth. The case won't buckle because the is no cannelure.

These bullets fired at 357 mag velocities will quickly convert a 0.357" rifled barrel to a 0.347" smoothbore. You now have a training opportunity in lead removal from a gun barrel.
__________________
S&WCA # 2533, Inactive
Reply With Quote
The Following 2 Users Like Post:
  #15  
Old 04-20-2017, 06:19 AM
Wise_A Wise_A is offline
Member
How deep to set a SWC without a crimp groove? How deep to set a SWC without a crimp groove? How deep to set a SWC without a crimp groove? How deep to set a SWC without a crimp groove? How deep to set a SWC without a crimp groove?  
Join Date: May 2016
Posts: 1,022
Likes: 648
Liked 1,185 Times in 526 Posts
Default

I would leave a bit of shoulder exposed--.060" sounds right. That's about the thickness of a quarter. Then I would very lightly crimp with whatever my normal .38 Spl / .357 Magnum die was. And then I would not load it to .357 Magnum pressures because it's a swaged lead bullet and not a hardcast.

Since you're not loading it to .357 Magnum pressures, you'd also be fine seating the shoulder to the depth of the case mouth and then roll crimping over it. My objection to that method is that you'd be asking for the case mouth to shave lead from the shoulder, to gain a crimp you don't need.

For a full-power LSWC load, you want a hardcast lead bullet. That's about 18 Brinell. They're available from Summers Enterprises (which only makes 18 Brinell bullets), and Missouri Bullet (look under .357 Magnum and not .38 Spl).
Reply With Quote
  #16  
Old 04-20-2017, 07:37 AM
rwsmith's Avatar
rwsmith rwsmith is offline
Member
How deep to set a SWC without a crimp groove? How deep to set a SWC without a crimp groove? How deep to set a SWC without a crimp groove? How deep to set a SWC without a crimp groove? How deep to set a SWC without a crimp groove?  
Join Date: Dec 2012
Location: (outside) Charleston, SC
Posts: 20,182
Likes: 23,584
Liked 15,590 Times in 7,942 Posts
Default That is a swaged bullet......

it's very soft and will lead in revolvers over around 1000 fps. Worse in rifles.

Get a cast semi wadcutter. I'd prefer coated. The same crimp applies as people mentioned above would work.

If you load them in a tubular mag and don't want them pushing deeper, get an 'M' die.
__________________
"He was kinda funny lookin'"
Reply With Quote
  #17  
Old 04-20-2017, 09:37 AM
gnystrom gnystrom is offline
Member
How deep to set a SWC without a crimp groove? How deep to set a SWC without a crimp groove? How deep to set a SWC without a crimp groove? How deep to set a SWC without a crimp groove? How deep to set a SWC without a crimp groove?  
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: MN
Posts: 978
Likes: 167
Liked 658 Times in 319 Posts
Default

If those were mine I would load then into 38 cases with a light taper crimp. I suspect these are soft lead so be prepared to do some lead removal from your barrel if you get the velocity a bit too high. Frankly I gave up on lead and switched to plated bullets years ago.
Lots of people worry about taper crimps but I shoot tens of thousands of plated bullets both 38 sp. and light loaded .357's using a light taper crimp. I have never had any issues at all. In fact, a heavy taper crimp will cause a lot more problems than a light one.
YMMV, my 2¢
Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
What is the difference between a roll crimp and a taper crimp? Retired LTC, USAR Reloading 24 06-15-2016 04:10 PM
Missouri #1 Ranger bullet crimp groove stan v Reloading 10 04-17-2016 03:44 PM
Modifying Hardcast Crimp Groove Homesteader Reloading 10 02-05-2015 03:46 PM
Roll crimp better for 45acp revolver vs taper crimp? YamaLink Reloading 15 01-07-2013 02:54 AM
Looking for .45 Auto Rim hard cast w/crimp groove??? Realzebub45 Reloading 9 10-31-2012 07:15 AM

Powered by vBadvanced CMPS v3.2.3
smith-wessonforum.com tested by Norton Internet Security smith-wessonforum.com tested by McAfee Internet Security

All times are GMT -4. The time now is 03:31 AM.


© S-W Forum, LLC 2000-2015
Smith-WessonForum.com is not affiliated with Smith & Wesson Holding Corporation (NASDAQ Global Select: SWHC)