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Old 04-25-2017, 11:09 PM
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Default A true, full length resizing die?

I recently ran into a "new" problem, after several years of hand loading. I have a new Springfield EMP 4 in 9mm that will not feed 80% of my hand loads. I am using the Hornady titanium nitride 9mm die set. Any and all of my loads made with this sizing die have always worked/fed into any of my 9mm pistols...until now. It seems that the die is not a true FL sizer. There is a small bulge/ring around the case approx. 3/16" up from the base. It happens with any headstamp brass. I have the die/press set according to manufactures recommendations IE, base of die hitting shell plate with just enough pressure to slightly "deflect" the plate. Strangely, some rounds function normally. The bad ones fail to seat in my case gauge. Running them through a Lee FCD helps about 30% of the ones that fail the first (sizing die only) time. The rest will not feed. It makes for a pretty serious jam-up. Jacketed or lead, no matter.
Again, all produced ammo feeds in all my other 9mm pistols. Do I need to have a smith open up the chamber a .001" or so? Or do I need a true FL sizing die? Does such an animal exist?
This is the first time I have run into anything like this.

Thanks!
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Old 04-26-2017, 01:09 AM
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Default There is something called......

A small base die that sizes the whole case to minimum size. Could be the chamber is really tight. If it's that tight, I'd consider getting a gunsmith to run a reamer into it.

Afer years of good reloading, my 30-06 cartridges have been off for quite a while now. I've corrected several problems but there always seem to be more with my method or the gun. Cartridges that test fine in the gauge don't chamber easily. I just took my rifle apart and cleaned it in case it was causing misfires. The gun's fine, I think I got a bad box of primers. The primers dent, but don't go off in two different guns. I've almost giveln up rifle because it's so frustrating.
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Old 04-26-2017, 01:28 AM
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After ensuring case mouths not flared with plunk test, I would think about the dies. I have bought "bad" brand new dies. I would call the manufacturer.

WILDPIG
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Old 04-26-2017, 02:11 AM
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This is a more common problem than you'd think, especially with 9 mm. All so-called "straight wall" cases have some degree of taper. The 9mm has a lot, relatively speaking. Carbide dies have a fairly small ring of carbide whose inside diameter is, at best a compromise. Generally speaking, the carbide ring will typically size the majority of the case to much smaller specs than ideal. Your flaring die then opens up the case mouth. If you've used carbide enough, you know the ugly look of a loaded round with the tight middle and the bulge above and below. Because of the more pronounced taper of the 9mm case, this carbide ring has to be made with a bit more surface area to help compensate. That's why the list price on a set of 9mm carbide dies is often higher than for other cartridges.
Your pistol, like most 1911 types, very likely has an unsupported chamber right at the feed ramp. So, your fired cases come out oversized at the base, especially with warmer loads.
The next problem with carbide dies is that, due to the brittle nature of the carbide, they cannot be allowed to hit the shell holder. So, that rear oversized base is left unsized.

Nothing is broken or out of spec. You just have an unfortunate combination of circumstances.
Your best option is to get a plain old all-steel non-carbide sizing die. These are cut to match the taper of the cartridge according to SAAMI specifications.
Of course, you'll have to lube your cases.
On the up-side, you'll get ammo that generally is, according to statistical evidence, more accurate.

I've found that 9mm all steel dies by RCBS and Redding to hold true to SAAMI specs, be propery heat treated for long life, and nicely polished for ease of use.

In any case, opening up the chamber of your pistol will just make matters worse.

I hope this helps,
Jim
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Old 04-26-2017, 02:56 AM
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I had that problem now I use a Lee bulge buster with a 9mm Makrof factory crimp die with the crimp removed. A lot of videos on youtube about this set up.
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Old 04-26-2017, 03:14 AM
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Your description seems to match that of casings that were originally fired in a Glock....

My Dillon dies in my 550b seem to have no problem ironing "Glocked" casings.

Redding also makes a push through die ( Redding GRX die) specifically for casings fired in guns with unsupported chambers.

Randy
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Old 04-26-2017, 06:44 AM
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EGW (Evolution Gun Works) contracts with Lee for dies that size just about down to the extractor groove.

EGW Gun Parts

I had the same problem with bulged brass in .38 Super not wanting to feed in a very tightly chambered new Colt Commander. This die eliminated all the problems and now all my reloads will go into a check die.

Bought one for loading 10mm and will be buying another for 9mm...

Bob

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Old 04-26-2017, 09:00 AM
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Default How many reloads in this brass?

The OP doesn't say how many reloads the brass has been through. Regardless, the best way I know to cure the problem is to have the brass remanufactured by someone with the correct press. The press that does this pushes the case all the way through the die and in the process resizes it from the mouth all the way to the rim, tightening the primer cup as well. Normally, folks that offer this service only do large quantities of brass. When I had my 45 brass done several years ago I had all 15000 pieces done at one time...two 5 gallon buckets worth. Cost me about $60 but considering it all feeds through my Dillon 1050 like new and chambers perfectly, it was money well spent.
Keith
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Old 04-26-2017, 10:05 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rwsmith View Post
A small base die that sizes the whole case to minimum size. Could be the chamber is really tight. If it's that tight, I'd consider getting a gunsmith to run a reamer into it.
Yep, you and SuperMan have me looking at the EGW undersized die. I should have mentioned, the pistol flawlessly feeds any and all factory rounds. The chamber is tight, no doubt. But it appears to within spec.

Thanks.
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Old 04-26-2017, 10:09 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WILDPIG View Post
After ensuring case mouths not flared with plunk test, I would think about the dies. I have bought "bad" brand new dies. I would call the manufacturer.

WILDPIG
Thanks,
The dies in question are 8 yrs old. They have produced many thousands of really good ammo in the past. Still do as a matter of fact, all ammo from these dies work in any other pistol. One of my first thoughts was that after 10's of thousands of rounds, the die wore out. I did call Hornady. They said that if the die was bad, it wouldn't leave a (perfect) ring, it would be non-uniform in pattern. Seems to me that it would wear evenly around...IDK.
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Old 04-26-2017, 10:15 AM
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Originally Posted by 6string View Post
This is a more common problem than you'd think, especially with 9 mm.
Your pistol, like most 1911 types, very likely has an unsupported chamber right at the feed ramp. So, your fired cases come out oversized at the base, especially with warmer loads.
The next problem with carbide dies is that, due to the brittle nature of the carbide, they cannot be allowed to hit the shell holder. So, that rear oversized base is left unsized.

Nothing is broken or out of spec. You just have an unfortunate combination of circumstances.
Your best option is to get a plain old all-steel non-carbide sizing die. These are cut to match the taper of the cartridge according to SAAMI specifications.
Of course, you'll have to lube your cases.
On the up-side, you'll get ammo that generally is, according to statistical evidence, more accurate.

I've found that 9mm all steel dies by RCBS and Redding to hold true to SAAMI specs, be propery heat treated for long life, and nicely polished for ease of use.

In any case, opening up the chamber of your pistol will just make matters worse.

I hope this helps,
Jim
I have used the plunk test on (in?) the actual barrel. It seems to have quite a bit of support, more than most barrels really. And I do have two sets of older (but in great shape) steel 9mm dies. I have considered using them. I may end up using them for a few dozen cases, just to see what happens. But, the thought of lubing and re-cleaning as many cases as I use (approx. 12k-15k/yr) is not a pretty one.

Thanks.
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Old 04-26-2017, 10:17 AM
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I had that problem now I use a Lee bulge buster with a 9mm Makrof factory crimp die with the crimp removed. A lot of videos on youtube about this set up.
I have looked at that too. But for the number of cases I need to process, it probably wouldn't work for me. However, if it is the only solution...
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Old 04-26-2017, 10:21 AM
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Originally Posted by growr View Post
Your description seems to match that of casings that were originally fired in a Glock....

My Dillon dies in my 550b seem to have no problem ironing "Glocked" casings.

Redding also makes a push through die ( Redding GRX die) specifically for casings fired in guns with unsupported chambers.

Randy
I'd say that 85%-95% of the cases were originally mine. I have a unique (read, time consuming) way of marking my brass. There is some "other" brass mixed in of course. That said, I haven't shot my 9mm Glocks in a while, too many other new-ish guns being tested/shot. That's not to say that some of the brass being processed isn't old "stock", as I have probably 5k or more of fired 9mm brass. So it is possible that it has been Glocked!

Thanks.
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Old 04-26-2017, 10:26 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SuperMan View Post
EGW (Evolution Gun Works) contracts with Lee for dies that size just about down to the extractor groove.

EGW Gun Parts

I had the same problem with bulged brass in .38 Super not wanting to feed in a very tightly chambered new Colt Commander. This die eliminated all the problems and now all my reloads will go into a check die.

Bought one for loading 10mm and will be buying another for 9mm...

Bob
I am thinking about getting the 9mm EGW die. I actually forgot about them. I have one in 40 S&W that I bought when I had several thou. bullets that wanted to "slip" in two brands of cases. That die fixed the problem. To this day, I still separate those two (FC and R-P) brands of 40 from all others. I still have a few thousand of the bullets left, they only go into the brass sized w/the EGW die.

Thanks.
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Old 04-26-2017, 10:30 AM
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Originally Posted by cprher View Post
The OP doesn't say how many reloads the brass has been through. Regardless, the best way I know to cure the problem is to have the brass remanufactured by someone with the correct press. The press that does this pushes the case all the way through the die and in the process resizes it from the mouth all the way to the rim, tightening the primer cup as well. Normally, folks that offer this service only do large quantities of brass. When I had my 45 brass done several years ago I had all 15000 pieces done at one time...two 5 gallon buckets worth. Cost me about $60 but considering it all feeds through my Dillon 1050 like new and chambers perfectly, it was money well spent.
Keith
Most of my brass has been loaded many times. How many? Can't tell you. I just check them after cleaning and process them as needed. I can tell when/if a case splits when resizing it.

Interesting, the bulk "reforming" of used brass. Did you find a place locally? Or did you need to send it out? The price of shipping that much brass could add substantially, to the overall cost.

Thanks.
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Old 04-26-2017, 11:22 AM
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If the pocket's are deep this is what you need.
Case-Pro 100
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Old 04-26-2017, 12:26 PM
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Posts No.s 4 and 8 IMHO sum up the apparent problem and offer again IMHO, the best solution. If you are using
and working with 10,000 rounds of brass that have been fired many times, the push thru reconditioning is the way to go about once a year for your brass.

FWIW, I wouldn't touch that pistol's chamber with anything except cleaning tools. ...........
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Old 04-26-2017, 12:33 PM
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You can try to rid cases of any bulges around the base with a Lee Precision Reloading Bulge Buster Kit

Lee Precision Reloading Bulge Buster Kit 90487 | eBay
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Old 04-26-2017, 12:37 PM
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IMHO, the LEE Bulge Buster kit and the Makarov FCD is the only way to go especially if you also shoot 45acp &/or 40 S&W...

Cheers!

P.S. I couldn't find a Redding 9mm G-RX anywhere: do they even make one?

P.S.S. Xtreme reprocessed brass is all cleaned, full length sized, pockets inspected, etc. They have a brass credit/exchange service as well, although I've never felt the need.
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Old 04-26-2017, 12:41 PM
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Before you waste any money on anything, try borrowing a set of different sizing dies. NOT HORNADY. The only dies I have ever had problems with were Hornady. I've used RCBS and Redding for around 35 years, without finding any gun they wouldn't function in. I used to own a couple sets of Hornady, .243 and 32 long/327 but I threw away the .243 and hate it every time I have to use the .32's (which I will replace at some point). The 32's are Titanium Nitride and I still have to lube most rounds to keep from sticking cases in the die. Never with carbide RCBS.
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Old 04-26-2017, 01:53 PM
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Before you waste any money on anything, try borrowing a set of different sizing dies. NOT HORNADY. The only dies I have ever had problems with were Hornady. I've used RCBS and Redding for around 35 years, without finding any gun they wouldn't function in. I used to own a couple sets of Hornady, .243 and 32 long/327 but I threw away the .243 and hate it every time I have to use the .32's (which I will replace at some point). The 32's are Titanium Nitride and I still have to lube most rounds to keep from sticking cases in the die. Never with carbide RCBS.
I've gotta say, I've not been too impressed with the Hornady dies either. Not that they've been horrible, but I have them in 11 different calibers and at some point, most of them have given me some problems. I.E., De-cap pins getting loose, bending the rod they're on. Hornady has always taken care of it, they have sent me several pins, rods and the little cap that holds them together. Other little things too. I have started buying dies from RCBS and some Lee too. The Lee's that I have were bought for magnum versions of the 38 (357) and 44 die sets I use. Some rifle calibers too.
I am going to run a bunch through my old RCBS steel die...with lube of course. That, and I'm really considering the EGW "reducing" die. I like the results from the one I have in 40 S&W.
It all seems to be a heck of an inconvenience for one pistol! Every other one I have (several in 9mm!) will take anything popped out of those dies.
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Old 04-26-2017, 02:02 PM
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IMHO, the LEE Bulge Buster kit and the Makarov FCD is the only way to go especially if you also shoot 45acp &/or 40 S&W...

Cheers!

P.S. I couldn't find a Redding 9mm G-RX anywhere: do they even make one?

P.S.S. Xtreme reprocessed brass is all cleaned, full length sized, pockets inspected, etc. They have a brass credit/exchange service as well, although I've never felt the need.
I just bought some of the Xtreme brass, in 30-30 and 7.62x39 (I have a CZ bolt gun in 7.62x39...SWEEEEET!!!) and it was pretty decent. A few mangled cases in each bag. But they give you a few (2?) extra in each also.
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Old 04-26-2017, 03:09 PM
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I have this issue with my Springfield 1911/9. it has a very tight match chamber. I pretty much cull all the foreign brand brass. I use an older set of RCBS dies with zero chamfer, sizer touching the shell plate with a bit of cam over. I still get about 1% that won't fit a case gage or my chamber. Those go into a box for my Glocks. A pass thru sizer might help, but not willing to go the extra step, yet.
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Old 04-26-2017, 03:45 PM
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I have this issue with my Springfield 1911/9. it has a very tight match chamber. I pretty much cull all the foreign brand brass. I use an older set of RCBS dies with zero chamfer, sizer touching the shell plate with a bit of cam over. I still get about 1% that won't fit a case gage or my chamber. Those go into a box for my Glocks. A pass thru sizer might help, but not willing to go the extra step, yet.
Well, it looks like I am not the only one with the Springfield blues! No, not really blues, just a bit of a challenge is all. As far as a pass thru die goes, I have read (Lee bulge buster kit,


) that due to the slight taper of the 9mm case, no real pass thru die exists for 9mm. Which have you seen?
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Old 04-26-2017, 04:47 PM
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Most of my brass has been loaded many times. How many? Can't tell you. I just check them after cleaning and process them as needed. I can tell when/if a case splits when resizing it.

Interesting, the bulk "reforming" of used brass. Did you find a place locally? Or did you need to send it out? The price of shipping that much brass could add substantially, to the overall cost.

Thanks.
Before moving to Virginia I lived in Maryland and shot with Neil Kravitz, owner of NSK Sales, PO Box 49 - Boring MD 21020-0049, Tel: 410.833.2100 Fax: 410.833.2101. His website is NSK Sales. He did all of my brass remanufacturing and some of my reloading, mostly 38 Special practice ammo. It's been years since he has done this for me, but contact him and see what he recommends. He's very knowledgeable and may have an easy fix for you.

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Old 04-26-2017, 04:51 PM
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Well, it looks like I am not the only one with the Springfield blues! No, not really blues, just a bit of a challenge is all. As far as a pass thru die goes, I have read (Lee bulge buster kit, Amazon.com : Lee Precision Model LP90487 Bulge Buster Kit : Gunsmithing Tools And Accessories : Sports & Outdoors) that due to the slight taper of the 9mm case, no real pass thru die exists for 9mm. Which have you seen?
Why don't you reach out to Neil Kravitz at NSK Sales, PO Box 49 - Boring MD 21020-0049, Tel: 410.833.2100 Fax: 410.833.2101 and see what he recommends. He remanufactured all of my 45 ACP brass in the past and I'm pretty certain he did 9mm as well. All except the stuff shot through Glocks.
Keith
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Old 04-26-2017, 10:43 PM
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A true, full length resizing die? A true, full length resizing die? A true, full length resizing die? A true, full length resizing die? A true, full length resizing die?  
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I lubed and sized 200 cases using one of my old steel 9mm die sets. I like to buy old sets (when the price is right...$10-$15 per set) just to have the extra seater die for different bullet profiles.
I probably have a duplicate set, or two, for most of what I load.
Funny thing is, I never considered using the "true" full length sizing dies that I already had. Good thing I kept all the old case lube sprays, and even an old lube pad or two!
Kinda like a throw back to the days when all I used was a SS press, I can run batches of this one step and bag them up to be used later on in the progressive. I am still considering the EGW die...
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Old 04-26-2017, 10:44 PM
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A true, full length resizing die? A true, full length resizing die? A true, full length resizing die? A true, full length resizing die? A true, full length resizing die?  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cprher View Post
Why don't you reach out to Neil Kravitz at NSK Sales, PO Box 49 - Boring MD 21020-0049, Tel: 410.833.2100 Fax: 410.833.2101 and see what he recommends. He remanufactured all of my 45 ACP brass in the past and I'm pretty certain he did 9mm as well. All except the stuff shot through Glocks.
Keith
I may do just that...thanks!
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Old 05-01-2017, 03:30 PM
bigedp51 bigedp51 is offline
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Reloading dies and chambers vary in size, as an example I have a standard Lee .223 die that will reduce the case diameter more than my RCBS small base die.

A Lee bulge buster is a push through carbide die that will size the base of the case to SAAMI minimums. Meaning your cases do not have to have a "bulge" to use this die. And this die will simply size the case your normal die never touches.

And when you use range pickup brass you always run the chance of picking up cases fired in a larger diameter chamber.

All my range pickup brass is run through a bulge buster for pistol brass and a small base die for rifle brass.

And remember after sizing the case wants to "spring back" to its fired diameter.

I buy bulk once fired Lake City 5.56 and 7.62 brass and all of it is sized first with a small base die. I also pause for 4 seconds at the top of the ram stroke to reduce brass spring back.

NOTE, for once fired 7.62 machine gun brass you can use a .45 acp carbide die as a "bulge buster". And then use a small base die to finish the sizing operation. I was told about this in the CMP forum and the sizing effort is greatly reduced. The .45 acp die is setup as a standard die with a shell holder and is not a push through operation like the bulge buster.

Last edited by bigedp51; 05-01-2017 at 03:37 PM.
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  #30  
Old 05-01-2017, 04:18 PM
Bayou52 Bayou52 is offline
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Originally Posted by JHB51 View Post
I had that problem now I use a Lee bulge buster with a 9mm Makrof factory crimp die with the crimp removed. A lot of videos on youtube about this set up.
I would suggest the same thing to the OP. In fact, I use the Lee Bulge Buster die kit routinely for 45 acp. This die is used after the case has been FL sized and has the effect of "uniforming" the brass at the web and the rim where the shell holder prevents insertion into the sizing die.

Since I shoot a lot of range pick-ups, using this die assures that each case will fit smoothly and flush in the case gauge.

Bayou52
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  #31  
Old 05-02-2017, 02:35 PM
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Titanium nitride isn't carbide. It's a coating that can wear out pretty fast. I have a set for 9mm and I don't like those dies. They leave a pronounced dark coloration on my cases like the coating is coming off on the cases. I have to lube my cases or the friction on the stroke is like breaking a lug nut on a wheel. Somebody gave me those dies and I'm about to chuck them. Notice that no other die maker uses that coating.

I would just invest in a new set of dies and save yourself a lot of grief. No more Hornady dies for me. They're a bullet company and should stick to bullets.
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  #32  
Old 05-03-2017, 12:01 PM
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I only read the first 10 or so posts, but have you tried turning the die in one or two more turns on the turret or plate. I had the same type problem with loading 9mm in a Springfield Armory range officer. Adjusted the die 1 1/2 turns all was right with the world.
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  #33  
Old 05-03-2017, 03:54 PM
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Originally Posted by carpriver View Post
I only read the first 10 or so posts, but have you tried turning the die in one or two more turns on the turret or plate. I had the same type problem with loading 9mm in a Springfield Armory range officer. Adjusted the die 1 1/2 turns all was right with the world.
It is as far down as it will go. It deflects the plate to a stopping point, no further travel downward, on the full upstroke. As it is, that is way more than needed with any other caliber/sizing die.
No, I'll end up with something else. Maybe RCBS, maybe Redding.
Maybe Dillon! I have their 357 Sig die set and it is great!
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  #34  
Old 05-03-2017, 03:57 PM
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As far as bulge busters go, I have only found the Lee buster. And it specifically states not for 9mm.
What are you guys using?
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Old 05-08-2017, 10:50 PM
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If you know a guy with a lathe, you can turn the die down some where it meets the shell holder.....

Sometimes a few .001s will get you where you need to be!!!

If you can't get it done for free (or really cheap), EGW makes really great stuff. I've been using their reloading/gun parts for years!!!!
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  #36  
Old 05-09-2017, 11:58 PM
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I've solved the problem with my EMP. The cases that were sized on the old steel RCBS die worked flawlessly. That, and I did spring for the EGW undersized die. I put 100 hand loads down range today without incident. The Lee/EGW undersized die does take a bit more effort to size the cases. I recently started experimenting with bootlegged case lube. I followed the recipes found online and it works beautifully. From now on, all my 9mm cases will be lubed and run thru the EGW die. Woo-hoo!!
Bye-bye, Hornady 9mm die!!!
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  #37  
Old 05-10-2017, 01:16 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ceapea View Post
As far as bulge busters go, I have only found the Lee buster. And it specifically states not for 9mm.
What are you guys using?
For 9mm Luger use a 9mm Makarov FCD
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