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Old 05-13-2017, 11:39 AM
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Recently I have noticed some bulging about 3/16" above the rim
I am using starting loads , 155 gr Extreme lead, usually power pistol, stock barrel.
I have found bulges on range brass fired by early gen Glocks but never noticed it on my fired rounds. the only thing I can think of is having too tight crimps increasing the pressure.
any other ideas ?
thanks
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Old 05-13-2017, 12:48 PM
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I believe that the case bulge issue is determined by the barrel. The chamber specifically, as the early glocks had an unsupported chamber. The case head was open/exposed on its lower half and would bulge from the pressure.

Which glock model are you using? From what I see, barrels are plentiful for those glocks.

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Old 05-13-2017, 01:41 PM
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More information would be very helpful.

Because you are using lead bullets I can only assume that you aren't shooting these reloads in a Glock. Because Glock has a widespread reputation for leading severely with lead bullet due to the use of octagonal rifling. If you are using these in a Glock plan on about 12-24 hours to clean the leading out of your barrel and do not shoot this pistol anymore until you have that barrel perfectly clean.

Second, if you are using the Speer #8 load manual stop using it. The #8 manual has a reputation for having many loads over pressure. Personally I prefer to use at least 3 sources of load data when working up a new load and usually go with the lowest starting load of the 3 for my first samples.

Finally double check the charge weight and overall length that you are using are actually correct. Because sometimes we can see something that actually isn't what was printed, especially if you have a tendency for dyslexia.

As for "overcrimping" a lead bullet in a brass case, I do not think that is at all possible with the taper crimp typical to the 40 caliber. However if you do crimp the case too small you could have an improper headspacing issue where the case is actually going past the headspace ledge in the chamber and you are "pinching" the case neck in the rifling. I would expect that if this is what is happening a close examination of the top of the case will show "scars" left by the rifling in your barrel.
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Old 05-13-2017, 01:46 PM
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Check your chamber dimensions. My 4013TSW has a fairly loose chamber and the fired brass bulges out slightly above the rim. I had the barrel replaced one time on S&W's dime and the new chamber was just as loose. I ordered a new one online and it came with the same chamber dimensions as the first two. I just run the bulged brass through my reloading dies and don't worry about it. My loads tend to be slightly above mid-range powder charges. Believe it or not, my Ruger KP944 has a much tighter chamber and I don't get any bulging.

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Old 05-13-2017, 03:47 PM
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scooter123, the .40 S&W wasn't even a dream in someone's eye when Speer #8 was published, so your warning doesn't hold, man.

As for your problem, NJM15, I don't know why you are suddenly experiencing this problem. I take it that you have been loading for this pistol you are suddenly seeing this problem with for a while and all of a sudden you are seeing bulged brass with lower power loads, right? Have you been shooting Power Pistol with other bullets with no problems in this pistol? I don't think a taper crimp could cause bulged brass; headspace issues yes but not bulged brass.

One thing you could look at is to get a Lee Bulge Buster and run your 40 brass through it before reloading. Maybe the brass you are using already has a certain amount of bulge and it's just showing more now. I wish I could help more, but I don't own a 40 or reload for them either.
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Old 05-13-2017, 04:01 PM
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The Glock bulge occurs because the feed ramp extends too deep into the chamber like below. Glock fixed the feed ramp problem and the manufactures made the cases thicker.



If your bulge is around the entire base of the case you might have a large diameter chamber. Or thinner cases with a base diameter at minimum SAAMI diameter.

I have Gen 3 Glock 17 and Glock 22 and do not have any bulge problems.

We need more info on what pistol, your bullets and load.

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Old 05-13-2017, 04:21 PM
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Exclamation Bulge on the left would render that case 100% UN-RELOADABLE...

...IMHO! Never have I ever seen any case that BAD!
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Old 05-13-2017, 04:33 PM
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Crimp isn't the issue, unless, as stated above, you are crimping so severely that the case mouth is actually entering the throat.
However, that being said, stop thinking that the taper crimp holds the bullet—it doesn't. It is really just to get rid of the case mouth flare.
Check out some factory rounds and you'll find there is really no crimp—just a straight case.
Finally, a starting load in one manual can be over max in another. Don't think that your lot of powder is the same as the test lot, or that your bullets are the same. Since the gun you are using, the cases you are using, the primers you are using, and the lot of powder differ, you can not possibly get the same results.
Check at least two manuals and start with the lowest start load.
From my manuals, I show that for 155gn lead bullets, start loads with Power Pistol range from 6.1-6.7gn and MAX loads range from 6.7-7.0gn.
From my own testing in my guns, I found 5.4gn of PP to be quite accurate with 155gn bullets. With a different lot of powder and other components, this might be too light to cycle a gun without a change in springs—but it works great in my two Paras and EAA Elite.

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Old 05-14-2017, 02:18 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NJM15 View Post
Recently I have noticed some bulging about 3/16" above the rim I am using starting loads , 155 gr Extreme lead, usually power pistol, stock barrel.

the only thing I can think of is having too tight crimps increasing the pressure. any other ideas ?
You didn't say what pistol this is in?

You didn't give us any details on your load either?

What COAL" are they loaded to? Some pistols have very little (chamber) leade & if you didn't do a "plunk test" to verify the bullet's not being jammed into the rifling, once chambered, I'd check that.

I'd suspect that being an issue before I'd suspect the taper crimp with a lead bullet.

.
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Old 05-14-2017, 08:09 AM
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Sorry,
forgot to say I am shooting a S&W M&P 40
I have the Lee .40 bulge buster and never felt much
resistance pushing one through as I have recently.
I have a storm lake ported barrel I will try next time to eliminate that possibility
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Old 05-14-2017, 08:24 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NJM15 View Post
Sorry,
forgot to say I am shooting a S&W M&P 40
I have the Lee .40 bulge buster and never felt much
resistance pushing one through as I have recently.
I have a storm lake ported barrel I will try next time to eliminate that possibility
I'd try different loads/ammo before I tried a new barrel. In fact, I'd run some factory ammo through it to determine if its the barrel or your hand loads.
If it's the barrel (which I tend to doubt), it goes back to S&W. If it's you hand loads, you need to change one thing at a time to diagnose the issue. I'd start with fresh brass, myself.
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Old 05-14-2017, 08:26 AM
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I must be doing something wrong. I shoot primarily lead reloads in my Glock 30 and have yet to find so much as a sliver of lead afterwards.
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Old 05-14-2017, 09:58 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bigedp51 View Post
If your bulge is around the entire base of the case you might have a large diameter chamber. Or thinner cases with a base diameter at minimum SAAMI diamer
This I think. Likely you are noticing because you are using different brass. My Shield 40 leaves a slight bulge all the way around some brands brass but not Rem or Winchester or Federal. Same thing with my P226. It is very likely the brass. Sort a few out and compare. This isn't bulging like the pics above it's more like swelling.
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Old 05-14-2017, 10:28 AM
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Aren't all (most) semi-auto chambers a bit oversized to allow a smooth transition of the new round into battery position? I know the older generation Glocks had the feed ramp cut further in the chamber bottom to minimize feed issues. I know the newer ones have a steeper ramp angle as an improvement to the original engineering. My G23 Gen 4 does not damage the casing any more than other handguns....that I can tell.

I knew of the "Glock Smile" when I bought my G23 over a year ago. I collected my spent brass for a year and couldn't see even a hint of a smile on any of my once-fired stuff. I started reloading back in January and I am fanatical about inspection of any spent brass as it works its' way to my bench. When I bought 1600 rounds of range brass is when I first saw a "smile" on any casing that I handled. I've attached a couple pics of my collection of inadequate brass that I set aside for recycling.

I've handled about 4200 spent casings and these pictures show my entire collection of brass that I won't load. I will continue my fanaticism with reloading preparation and I feel comfortable with that.

To the OP, I'm curious about your statement "Recently I have noticed some bulging about 3/16" above the rim". Is this observation based on science? All the straight walled casings that I have prepared for reloading have had some swelling that required resizing prior to flaring and charging.

Like the gentlemen stated above, the 40SW cartridge headspaces on the case mouth. I think a Lee FCD would help you feel more secure with your crimping step. Read, Read some more, and then Read it again.
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Old 05-14-2017, 10:31 AM
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Glock OEM barrels are STILL unsupported. Some of the aftermarket one's are fully supported.
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Old 05-14-2017, 10:56 AM
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I have been shooting and reloading for a Glock 23 for over 10 years with no bulge related failures. I use the 23 for steel plate, USPSA, and other competitive shoots as well as frequent practice drills. The "bulge" I experience is much less severe than the one pictured above.

As far as leading is concerned, I have had no major issues with commercial hard cast 180 grain bullets. I did experience major leading and tumbling issues using reclaimed wheel weights run thru a Lee 180grain Alox type mold. Problems were experienced with both the Glock factory and a Wolf after market barrel. As long as I stay with the commercial hard cast bullets I have only minimal leading that cleans up easily at the end of a shoot. I clean usually after about 250 to 300 rounds fired.
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Old 05-14-2017, 01:20 PM
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I run all 40 through a Bulge Buster. I never get the pimple of the actual Glock problem but rather a general bulge too close to the case head for the dies to otherwise affect. I concluded that this was caused by the case ejecting while still under pressure, i.e the nature of the beast, not designed to support reloadng. My problem was mostly Kahr rather than Glock. Kahr chambers in my guns are unforgiving, so I just use a cartridge gauge. It's just easier to precondition everything and load to standard dimensions.
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Old 05-14-2017, 04:23 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BZimm View Post
Aren't all (most) semi-auto chambers a bit oversized to allow a smooth transition of the new round into battery position?
SAAMI has chamber dimension specifications but that doesn't mean some aren't looser than others. As I mentioned in my previous post, my Ruger has a much tighter chamber than my 4013TSW and it chambers just fine without bulging the cases. My 4013TSW measures out-of-spec and I could not get S&W to answer my question as to whether their chambers are supposed to meet SAAMI specs....
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Old 05-14-2017, 05:22 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PR24 View Post
Glock OEM barrels are STILL unsupported. Some of the aftermarket one's are fully supported.
They say a picture is worth a thousand words........

Glock fixed the problem years ago and the cartridge cases were made thicker.



I have gen 3 Glock 17 and Glock 22 and do not have a bulge problem.

Bottom line, the only Glocks with a bulge problem are owned by people who do not reload and don't know Glock will replace the barrel.
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Old 05-14-2017, 05:40 PM
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FWIW, Lee 2nd edition says to never use reloads of 40 S&W in Glocks or other guns with unsupported barrels. Whether that means the newer Glocks are safer is questionable. Supposedly the "bulge buster" does not solve the problem and perhaps this is the cause of the infamous Glock Kaboom. More knowledgeable persons are perhaps able to respond.
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Old 05-14-2017, 06:48 PM
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If the true Glock bulge is resized the case will deform and blow out at the weakened point at the base.



I still run all my .40 S&W range pickup brass through a Lee bulge buster. This is like using a small base die and returning it to minimum SAAMI dimensions.

I also bought a Lee 9mm makarov carbide factory crimp die as a bulge buster for 9mm. "BUT" it reduced the rim diameter .002 and none of the range pickup brass benefited or needed this treatment.
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Old 05-16-2017, 02:30 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 427mach1 View Post
SAAMI has chamber dimension specifications but that doesn't mean some aren't looser than others. As I mentioned in my previous post, my Ruger has a much tighter chamber than my 4013TSW and it chambers just fine without bulging the cases. My 4013TSW measures out-of-spec and I could not get S&W to answer my question as to whether their chambers are supposed to meet SAAMI specs....
One of the things I do with any new/used purchase is to go thru it & document clearances/dimensions. I too noticed my 4013TSW & 4056TSW pre-rails have noticeably larger chamber openings (the case head end) at .438" & .437" respectively using pin gages. Much larger than my 4006, 4013, or Shorty 40, at .429", .430" & .429" respectively.

Maybe by the late 90's, when these were made, those good reamers from the early 90's were all worn out.

That said, I've never experienced any negative side effects from it with mine. I see SAAMI specs are .4284" +.004".

.
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Old 05-16-2017, 07:57 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BLUEDOT37 View Post
One of the things I do with any new/used purchase is to go thru it & document clearances/dimensions. I too noticed my 4013TSW & 4056TSW pre-rails have noticeably larger chamber openings (the case head end) at .438" & .437" respectively using pin gages. Much larger than my 4006, 4013, or Shorty 40, at .429", .430" & .429" respectively.

Maybe by the late 90's, when these were made, those good reamers from the early 90's were all worn out.

That said, I've never experienced any negative side effects from it with mine. I see SAAMI specs are .4284" +.004".

.
Those dimensions look similar to what I measured and I haven't noticed any side effects, either. My 4013TSW was very early in the TSW production, November 1996 and I don't know if they used the same reamers as the earlier, non-TSW chambers. With TSW production going through 2005, I would think they would have replaced worn out reamers at some point as they aren't that expensive! I think they intentionally ran the chambers big on the TSW.
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Old 05-16-2017, 04:14 PM
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Thank you for the photograph bigedp51.

My concern with "Glocked" brass, whether or not a Bulge Buster die is used or not, is that the brass was stretched out and thus made thinner in the unsupported area and that thinning cannot be uniformly restored by simply applying conpressive force from outside the case.

That's why I measure the case diameter of all brass just above the head and discard those cases that exceed SAAMI maximum dimensions.

The way I look at it, 9mm, 40S&W, 45ACP are all common enough and cheap enough that I'd rather throw out 25% of an order of brass than take my chances being maimed by a Kaboom.
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Old 05-16-2017, 05:16 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hdwhit View Post
Thank you for the photograph bigedp51.

My concern with "Glocked" brass, whether or not a Bulge Buster die is used or not, is that the brass was stretched out and thus made thinner in the unsupported area and that thinning cannot be uniformly restored by simply applying conpressive force from outside the case.

That's why I measure the case diameter of all brass just above the head and discard those cases that exceed SAAMI maximum dimensions.

The way I look at it, 9mm, 40S&W, 45ACP are all common enough and cheap enough that I'd rather throw out 25% of an order of brass than take my chances being maimed by a Kaboom.
If you do not know what the case diameter was before it was fired what you are doing could be over kill. At the Brian Enos's Forums many of the competitive shooters use range pickup brass. They load these cases until they split or have over sized primer pockets.

And most reloaders use their rifle brass until they have over sized primer pockets or a cracked neck. And rifle calibers are loaded to much higher pressures and we use small base dies to size the base more just like a bulge buster die.

Base diameter after firing is used to judge pressure, "BUT" the amount the base expands depends on the hardness of the brass. I have had factory loaded Federal .223 cases with over sized primer pockets after the first firing.

If your resized case pass a "plop" test in a case gauge the case is not over sized.
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Old 05-22-2017, 09:40 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NJM15 View Post
Recently I have noticed some bulging about 3/16" above the rim
I am using starting loads , 155 gr Extreme lead, usually power pistol, stock barrel.
I have found bulges on range brass fired by early gen Glocks but never noticed it on my fired rounds. the only thing I can think of is having too tight crimps increasing the pressure.
any other ideas ?
thanks
The only different thing I did was increase the crimp, so I went back to a lighter crimp and the cases have only a very small bulge just above the rim that was always there. they run through the buster with little or no resistance. I don't know if that is feasible or not but it worked for me. the moral of the story is leave everything the way it is if it works, experimenting can lead you in a different direction. I will try to post pictures if I can get a good close up.
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Old 06-01-2017, 11:44 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NJM15 View Post
Sorry,
forgot to say I am shooting a S&W M&P 40
I have the Lee .40 bulge buster and never felt much
resistance pushing one through as I have recently.
I have a storm lake ported barrel I will try next time to eliminate that possibility
I'm using the bulge buster also. It works. The only thing I worry about is weakening the brass at the point the bulge was swaged back. I toss brass that has been through the bulge buster after the 4th loading.
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Old 06-02-2017, 01:48 AM
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As a side note;
My brand-new Shield 9mm shows the same bulge on brand-new IMI 115 gr. EX-STAR rounds.
Maybe the rnds are a little hot for the Shield.
Gonna sell the Shield when I get around to it anyway.
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Old 06-02-2017, 01:57 AM
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Default Seating depth.....

Seating will raise pressures very quickly if seated to deep. Crimp MAY raise the pressure a little in a bullet crimped over the shoulder (revolvers) but nowhere near as much as too deep seating will.
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Old 06-02-2017, 03:50 PM
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Looking at the SAAMI chamber and cartridge drawings you can have .0114 difference between maximum chamber diameter and minimum case diameter above the extractor groove.

I do not have any .40 S&W photos but below is a example of case base diameter.

Below are two .303 British cases fired in the same Enfield rifle. The Greek HXP case on the right is a smaller diameter than the Prvi Partizan case. And the HXP case had further to expand to meet the chamber walls and "bulged" more when fired.

The Prvi Partizan case has a larger base diameter and is .010 thicker in the base area and did not bulge. Meaning case construction and its base diameter governs how much the case can bulge when fired.



Bottom line, if your cases are at or near minimum SAAMI diameter you will see more bulge around the entire base of the case. And measuring the cases with a vernier caliper will give you more information.

When the OP said he pushed these cases through his bulge buster with little resistance it tells a story. If you have a fat chamber and skinny brass you will have a bulged case. And if for some reason you have higher than normal chamber pressure it will increase the amount of bulge.
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Old 06-02-2017, 07:40 PM
hdwhit hdwhit is offline
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Quote:
bigedp51 wrote:
If you do not know what the case diameter was before it was fired what you are doing could be over kill.
I acknowledge that I'm erring on the side of caution.

It is not necessary for me to know the "before" diameter of the case. If the brass is larger than SAAMI maximum for the case diameter at the head, it has stretched beyond its elastic limit. And that means it has stretched by a greater amount than I care to deal with.

Quote:
At the Brian Enos's Forums many of the competitive shooters use range pickup brass. They load these cases until they split or have over sized primer pockets.
So?

Pistol cases that aren't oversize at the head enter my reloading stream and are reloaded and shot until they split or are lost in the weeds.

Apart from saying that some anonymous shooters on another forum apparently don't measure their cases before putting them into their reloading streams and then do exactly the same thing that I do, I fail to see your point.

Quote:
And most reloaders use their rifle brass until they have over sized primer pockets or a cracked neck.
Again, whether someone uses a case until the neck cracks has nothing to do with whether the case is expanded at the case head.

Rifle cases that aren't oversize at the head enter my reloading stream and are reloaded and shot until they split at the neck, have loose primer pockets or are lost in the weeds. Most are lost in the weeds before their fifth firing so I rarely encounter any neck splits with rifle cartridges.

But, I think you miss the point of the process. It has nothing to do with how long brass is reloaded, it has to do with the dimensions it has when I first receive it.

As indicated in the post you take issue with, I am familiar with the Lee Bulge Buster die and the concept of its operation. Because of the thinning of the case wall that occurs when brass is stretched more than it should, I do not believe that conventional resizing or the Bulge Buster is a reliable, safe approach to dealing with oversize cases. I measure them using SAAMI maximum as the maximum amount of deformation acceptable to me. Any brass fired in an unsupported chamber (i.e. Glocked brass) will not pass this test. Brass fired from an open bolt will likely not pass the test. Other cases fired in abnormally loose chambers likewise will not pass the test.

I've been reloading for 38+ years and have never had a case-related failure, so if proceeding out of an abundance of caution keeps me and my guns safe and intact, it seems a small price to pay.

Last edited by hdwhit; 06-02-2017 at 07:44 PM.
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