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Old 06-04-2017, 09:26 PM
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Default Lyman Cast Data - 38 Spl +P WW231

My Lyman manual lists 5.2 grs WW231 and 160 gr 358311 bullet for its +P load. Sounds like a real good load, and I love the consistency and accuracy of WW231.

I have Bayou 158 gr polymer coated SWC's (a basic cast SWC profile bullet) which when loaded will have an overral length shorter than prescribed by the Lyman manual for it's 160 gr 358311.

Would you use the 358311 5.2 grs WW231 +P charge from the Lyman Manual with the 158 gr SWC Bayou?
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Old 06-04-2017, 10:26 PM
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I have no idea what is +P for a 160gr lead bullet but..

my 38 special in a 6" barrel with 4.7 grs of w231 powder
with a lead 158gr LHP bullet does 891 fps.

Unique kicks out 968 fps....... Blue Dot at 1124 fps.
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Old 06-13-2017, 07:22 AM
zeke zeke is offline
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I would look at one of the newer hodgen's annual manuals for updated pressures with 158 lswc in 38 special and 357 mag using 231.

If I wanted higher velocity's, would use 357 mag brass and loads for lower pressures and same velocity's.
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Old 06-13-2017, 11:05 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 38SPL HV View Post
My Lyman manual lists 5.2 grs WW231 and 160 gr 358311 bullet for its +P load. Sounds like a real good load, and I love the consistency and accuracy of WW231.

I have Bayou 158 gr polymer coated SWC's (a basic cast SWC profile bullet) which when loaded will have an overral length shorter than prescribed by the Lyman manual for it's 160 gr 358311.

Would you use the 358311 5.2 grs WW231 +P charge from the Lyman Manual with the 158 gr SWC Bayou?
The OAL really means nothing when it comes to pressure unless the bullet is into the rifling. What matters is how much case space the bullet takes up. If the bullets have the same length below the crimp groove making the seating depth of bullets the same, the pressures will be similar.

You can cast the same exact bullet with a round nose. Then flatten off the top which will make the OAL of the round different but if both are crimped to the crimp groove the pressures generated by both will be the same. The gun doesn't know what the OAL of a revolver round is.

Note: You should always start low and work up since all bullets are different. This is why a charge range is provided in load data.
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Old 06-13-2017, 10:35 PM
Wee Hooker Wee Hooker is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 38SPL HV View Post
My Lyman manual lists 5.2 grs WW231 and 160 gr 358311 bullet for its +P load. Sounds like a real good load, and I love the consistency and accuracy of WW231.

I have Bayou 158 gr polymer coated SWC's (a basic cast SWC profile bullet) which when loaded will have an overral length shorter than prescribed by the Lyman manual for it's 160 gr 358311.

Would you use the 358311 5.2 grs WW231 +P charge from the Lyman Manual with the 158 gr SWC Bayou?
It's always a good thing to start 10% or so below a hot load and work up. This is especially true when targeting high pressure loads as allot of margin is used up by design.
If it were me, I'd try 18 or so each test loads starting at 4.6 or so and moving up to published data in 0.2gr intervals while watching for signs of excessive pressure.
In the end,5.2 may/may not be OK. You could find an even better load while getting there though.
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Old 06-16-2017, 02:13 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wee Hooker View Post
It's always a good thing to start 10% or so below a hot load and work up. This is especially true when targeting high pressure loads as allot of margin is used up by design.
If it were me, I'd try 18 or so each test loads starting at 4.6 or so and moving up to published data in 0.2gr intervals while watching for signs of excessive pressure.
In the end,5.2 may/may not be OK. You could find an even better load while getting there though.
Most times that would be true but not with most handgun cartridges. By the time you see any pressure signs in the .38 Special +P pressures with be very high. Remember, the same or similar brass and primers can withstand over 35,000 PSI in the .357 Magnum.
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Old 06-16-2017, 03:14 PM
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None of this is worth arguing, but I do wonder about Lyman's recommendation. 5.2 / 231 may be at the top end of safe +P pressure in their test rig but could be excessive in some revolvers with #358311 or a similar bullet. Most load manuals do not suggest such a charge with a similar cast or swaged round nose or swc bullet with similar bearing length.

I've used a lot of 231 with cast bullets in the .38 Special for years. With #358311 and 4.8 / 231 (the heaviest charge I've tried), muzzle velocity in a 6" K38 was 921 fps, but accuracy was better at 4.5 grs.
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Old 06-16-2017, 03:44 PM
boatbum101 boatbum101 is offline
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With the tech advances in pressure measuring many of the accepted older loads are now deemed excessive . In Lymans # 43 with the 358311 160gr RN max loads were 6.0grs of Unique or 12.5grs of 2400 . 2 years later in Lyman # 45 they were reduced to a max of 5.4 Unique & 11.0 of 2400 . Lyman Cast Bullet Handbook # 4 shows 5.3 Unique as a max + P load & no 2400 loads are listed . Across the board many loads have been reduced . Rather this is due to max pressures being reduced or more accurate means of measuring is been a debate . European CIP data exceeds our SAAMI data . Are todays guns not as strong as yesteryears ? Anytime one chooses to exceed published load data you're in uncharted territory . So proceeding with extreme caution is highly reccomended . Handguns will not show pressure signs like a rifle will , sometimes it goes straight to catastrophic failure . A blownup gun is bad , personal injury is even worse . The old saw of starting 10% below published max & slowly working up is excellent advice .
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Old 06-16-2017, 03:48 PM
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While 231 may work for +P 38 Special, my experience has been that slower powders give better results.
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Old 06-16-2017, 05:12 PM
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I would have to go through my notes to be sure regarding overall performance of slower powders in comparison with 231. Generally, however, I've found powders like Unique, Universal, Herco, Power Pistol, HS-6, Blue Dot and maybe a couple of others have been a bit more specialized in application. Almost all of my work has been with cast bullets.

While I've gotten a very accurate load using one or two bullets with perhaps all of the slower powders, accurate loads with 231 has covered a broader range of bullets even if velocity may have suffered slightly. I've had about the same results with Bullseye as with 231, though Bullseye may be a little fast for some bullets if you want decent velocity.

I'm not criticizing the slower powders; pick a good bullet and do some experimentation. You'll likely get the velocity and accuracy you seek.
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Old 06-16-2017, 05:29 PM
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When 231 was marketed and sold by Winchester they published a reloading manual yearly. 4.5 grains of 231 with a 158 grain lead bullet was listed as max. standard while 4.7 grains of 231 with a 158 grain lead bullet was listed as max. +P for the 38 special.
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Old 06-16-2017, 07:51 PM
boatbum101 boatbum101 is offline
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W231 is an outstanding powder for 38 special target & standard pressure loads . If you want hotter loads a slower powder will give better results . Best attribute of W231 is it'll give you an acceptible load in just about any handgun cartridge you'd care to name . W231 is to handguns what 4895 is to rifles , it's beauty lies in its versatility . 3.1grs with a 148 HBWC or 4.5grs with a 158 lead SWC or RN are both accurate paper punching loads .
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Old 06-16-2017, 08:49 PM
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Not without working the load up slowly from 4.7 grains .
Loading up maximum +P loads , that may or may not be safe , is not a great idea. There are just too many variables that can cause the pressure to jump....you need to test that charge with your components.
In reloading the devil's in the details ... Load safe
Gary
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