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Old 06-08-2017, 09:12 AM
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Default Neck turning rifle brass

Wondering if anyone here neck turns thier rifle brass.
If you do, then why and what equipment do you use.
If you don't , then why not.
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Old 06-08-2017, 09:52 AM
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Forester trimmer and usually it is only done when reforming brass from another caliber.
A neck micrometer can show you if your brass is concentric and if not so then the bullet is entering the chamber in a less than perfectly square manner. Most of us cannot shoot well enough to measure the difference neck turning for centering fixes.
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Old 06-08-2017, 09:57 AM
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If you want to go the extra mile. I use K&M tools. For factory rifles all you do is true up the brass. That is just to take the high side off. I use a RCBS case master to measure thickness. If you remove to much, you will loose neck tension on your bullet. Neck turning is required on some tight neck chambers.
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Old 06-08-2017, 10:02 AM
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Most bench rest shooters will turn case necks more for wall thickness uniformity than anything else. If you are forming brass for caliber B from caliber A brass, it may, or may not, be necessary to thin the case necks depending on how much you squeeze the case and change the neck diameter. I have a Forster neck trimmer. It is always better to turn the outside of the neck than to ream the inside if it is necessary to thin the necks. You also need a tubing micrometer to measure wall thickness. I made my own.
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Old 06-08-2017, 11:43 AM
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I use a Foster set up but I only do my 30-06 and 22-250 cases
since they need the added accuracy down range.

As mentioned good measuring equipment is needed......
and a little bit goes a long ways, don't go crazy removing brass from your cases.

There is inside and outside neck trimmers so you will need to read up
on what and why each is done or if needed in your quest.

Some prefer one brand name case over the others but just try
to get a lot of one type and stay with them, for best results.

Trimming is only part of the accuracy program.
Primers, bullets, powders, OAL and fps are the other parts of the puzzle.

Have fun.
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Old 06-08-2017, 12:41 PM
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Accuracy improvement is not the only reason to turn necks. Some rifles with minimum chambers often require neck turning as a safety factor. With most factory rifles, however, neck turning is not usually required, but repeated heavy (but safe) loads may eventually cause a neck to thicken and turning will be necessary.

Cases normally only require minimal turning, maybe two-thirds of the neck will have brass removed. You can turn too much and ruin a case.

The general rule has been that if you can insert a bullet into the neck of a fired, unsized cased, there is adequate clearance and no neck turning is required. That's true, but, as brass ages, it loses some elasticity and a case neck may not "spring back" (if that's a proper reference) after firing, preventing the insertion of a bullet.

In such a situation, it may be best to do a chamber cast to get an exact measurement of the neck area and proceed from there.

I've turned case necks for a long time using a Forster tool. I've never inside reamed a neck and don't see a reason to ever do so, but there are exceptions to everything.
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Old 06-08-2017, 02:33 PM
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I trim, outside neck turn, primer hole uniform, and clean primer pockets on all My rifle brass. Noticeble difference in 22-250, not so much in 300 Weatherby. It makes me feel good that I have done everything to enhance accuracy and when I miss I know it's Me. I use Forster trimmer and neck sizer.
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Old 06-08-2017, 02:54 PM
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Just started neck turning about a year or so ago.

Neck turning .270 and .222 brass when it goes more than .020 out of round. Using an RCBS bench mount neck turn tool with an RCBS concentricety gage.

.270 brass generally runs about .013 neck wall thickness. Will take it as low as .0125 to "get it round". Necks generally seem to vary .013 - .015, in which case I turn them down to .013 to get rid of the high spots. Not really critical in a hunting rifle, makes more difference in long range cartridges.

Maybe not really necessary but it is fun.
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Old 06-08-2017, 03:16 PM
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Unless you have an tight neck chamber turning necks is a waist of time. Any improvement of 1 to 3 thousands will not effect accuracy in a standard SAAMI spec chamber. The only time it could be advantageous with a standard chamber is if the concentricity measurement or neck thickness is 5 thousands per side out. You need a neck concentricity gauge to measure that. Relative to a previous post, benchrest shooters turn necks because their chamber are tight neck reamed. Turning the necks with a 2 thousands per side clearance allows them the best alignment possible.
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Old 06-08-2017, 03:47 PM
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I only ever had to turn my necks for one rifle. Had a local guy that built custom bench rest rifles rebarrel one of my rifles. My rifle wasn't a bench rest rifle but apparently got the bench rest treatment when he chambered it. At least he told me when I picked it up that it had a tight neck and I would likely have to turn the necks. He even engraved the barrel with the dimensions. I couldn't chamber a round if I didn't turn the necks if I was using new brass.

Beyond that one particular instance I don't see any need to turn the necks on any cases. I've had other rifles that would repeatedly shoot sub .5 MOA groups or better and I didn't do anything extra special with that brass.
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Old 06-08-2017, 04:06 PM
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I inside-neck turn my 40-XB-fired 6mm Rem cases with a Lee Target Loader.

I have an FN LAR (.308 Win) for which I reload, but of course I full length resize for that every time, and don't sweat case necks.

I have two 7mm pistols, a 7mm-08 H-S Precision and a 7mm BR XP-100, and load for both with Wilson dies. I'm not using up bullets very fast in either. I have plenty of cases for the 7mm-08, and a small stock of Hornady factory cartridges, which are just about as accurate as my my own. Obviously, my once-fired cases don't need turning, and even my older cases haven't needed any help yet.

I only have 100 BR cases, and I have reloaded 50 of them quite a few times. No issues yet. If I have to start neck turning, it will be probably be here, and then I'd be set for both pistols. At age 72, I'm not so sure that the problem will ever come up.

Further, deponent sayeth not.
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Old 06-08-2017, 05:03 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by firearmsunlimited View Post
Unless you have an tight neck chamber turning necks is a waist of time. Any improvement of 1 to 3 thousands will not effect accuracy in a standard SAAMI spec chamber. The only time it could be advantageous with a standard chamber is if the concentricity measurement or neck thickness is 5 thousands per side out. You need a neck concentricity gauge to measure that. Relative to a previous post, benchrest shooters turn necks because their chamber are tight neck reamed. Turning the necks with a 2 thousands per side clearance allows them the best alignment possible.
I agree 100%

You must be almost as smart, good looking and modest as I am.
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Old 06-08-2017, 05:13 PM
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I have a 22BR custom rifle, with a tight chamber. Forming brass is as simple as neck sizing, BUT the Lapua brass is actually 6BR Norma and the chamber is 22BR Remington. The real difference is the case wall thickness. Norma uses "No Turn" necks of .015 thickness, and Remington chambers use "Turn" necks of .010 thickness. So when I acquired the rifle I made up 200 brass and I've been doing fine for 12 years.

If using the 6BR Norma brass to make 7BR Remington cases, you MAY not need to turn them, How worn was the ream when they chambered your XP?

I have looked at my 6PPC (Sako Varminter) and I have 1.75ish/1000" clearance on each side, it is a little tight but I don't Red Line my Varmint loads. I really don't know how accurate this rifle is, at 200 yards everything is still way smaller than a dime!

My other "wildcat" is a 6x284. Norma 6.5x284 brass works great with only neck sizing and trim to length. It has won matches out past 500 yards, If it works - don't fix it!

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Old 06-08-2017, 05:18 PM
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I inside-neck turn my 40-XB-fired 6mm Rem cases with a Lee Target Loader.

I have an FN LAR (.308 Win) for which I reload, but of course I full length resize for that every time, and don't sweat case necks.

I have two 7mm pistols, a 7mm-08 H-S Precision and a 7mm BR XP-100, and load for both with Wilson dies. I'm not using up bullets very fast in either. I have plenty of cases for the 7mm-08, and a small stock of Hornady factory cartridges, which are just about as accurate as my my own. Obviously, my once-fired cases don't need turning, and even my older cases haven't needed any help yet.

I only have 100 BR cases, and I have reloaded 50 of them quite a few times. No issues yet. If I have to start neck turning, it will be probably be here, and then I'd be set for both pistols. At age 72, I'm not so sure that the problem will ever come up.

Further, deponent sayeth not.
Model520fan why were you compelled to ream the inside of the necks?
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Old 06-08-2017, 06:14 PM
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Accuracy improvement is not the only reason to turn necks. Some rifles with minimum chambers often require neck turning as a safety factor. With most factory rifles, however, neck turning is not usually required, but repeated heavy (but safe) loads may eventually cause a neck to thicken and turning will be necessary.

Cases normally only require minimal turning, maybe two-thirds of the neck will have brass removed. You can turn too much and ruin a case.

The general rule has been that if you can insert a bullet into the neck of a fired, unsized cased, there is adequate clearance and no neck turning is required. That's true, but, as brass ages, it loses some elasticity and a case neck may not "spring back" (if that's a proper reference) after firing, preventing the insertion of a bullet.

In such a situation, it may be best to do a chamber cast to get an exact measurement of the neck area and proceed from there.

I've turned case necks for a long time using a Forster tool. I've never inside reamed a neck and don't see a reason to ever do so, but there are exceptions to everything.
Wow, I'm not quite sure where some of your hypotheses came from but ... First, a "minimum" chamber neck refers to the minimum dimension as listed by SAAMI. SAAMI minimum reamed necks do not required brass neck turning in order to chamber. Second, neck turning has nothing to do with safety. Chamber pressures are not effected by the case neck to chamber neck dimension. In a tight neck chamber (one reamed tighter than SAAMI minimum spec) if sufficient clearance is not allowed extraction of the fired case will be the resulting problem. Third, turning a case neck 2/3 is the invitation for the dreaded inside neck donut to happen. As the brass flows it will stop where the neck turning stopped and migrate to the inside of the neck. This severely impacts accuracy. To turn necks correctly the neck is turned to the neck shoulder junction and just kisses the shoulder without cutting into it. Fourth, case necks do not thicken due to brass flow from firings. Fifth, even if a chamber cast is done what would the alternative be? I've never seen brass for sale that advertise thick neck walls. All factory gun chambers are reamed to SAAMI maximum dimensions and it is not possible to experience a tight neck issue.
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Old 06-08-2017, 07:26 PM
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Neck turning can mitigate a potentially dangerous high pressure situation should there be inadequate neck clearance.

Regarding the 'donut"... my explanation was poor. By turning 2/3rds, I was referring not to case neck length, but to circumference. Rather than turn the entire neck down to clean metal, I set the cutter to cut about 2/3, a very light cut. A heavier cut could be required, but this amount often works well. Yes, turning 2/3 of the case neck length will guarantee a donut.

Case necks thicken from brass flow.

Chamber cast could be used to provide dimensions if needed with a problem chamber. I have never run into this.

With the first firing of any brass, it is probably unlikely that a tight neck problem would exist. Possible with subsequent firings.

I stand by my original comments, all of which have a good basis. I respect your right to express your opinions, even if I may not agree. I will assume you have much experience, probably far greater than mine regarding neck turning and your statements are based on this experience.
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Old 06-08-2017, 07:27 PM
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Neck turning can mitigate a potentially dangerous high pressure situation should there be inadequate neck clearance.

Regarding the 'donut"... my explanation was poor. By turning 2/3rds, I was referring not to case neck length, but to circumference. Rather than turn the entire neck down to clean metal, I set the cutter to cut about 2/3, a very light cut. A heavier cut could be required, but this amount often works well.

Case necks thicken from brass flow.

Chamber cast could be used to provide dimensions if needed with a problem chamber. I have never run into this.

With the first firing of any brass, it is probably unlikely that a tight neck problem would exist. Possible with subsequent firings.

I stand by my original comments, all of which have a good basis. I respect your right to express your opinions, even if I may not agree. I will assume you have much experience, probably far greater than mine regarding neck turning and your statements are based on such.
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Old 06-08-2017, 07:59 PM
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I've never felt the need. Maybe I haven't taken my shooting seriously enough over the last 55 yrs. My Springfields, most Mausers and commercial rifles have generally performed enough over minimum requirements for their ultimate applications (hunting, range practice and just fun shooting). The varying results I've had from fiddling w/different loads have been satisfying enough that I've not been impelled to squeeze every last 1/4 minute of group size out of 'em. Sometimes I trim to length or swage primer crimps, especially when reforming, but turning ? nah.

Larry

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Old 06-09-2017, 12:11 AM
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"I've turned case necks for a long time using a Forster tool. I've never inside reamed a neck and don't see a reason to ever do so, but there are exceptions to everything.

External neck turning results in a much more uniform wall thickness than neck reaming. Not sure why anyone would want/need to do inside reaming. I have never known of anyone who did it that way.

In the world of bench rest shooting, absolute uniformity in all things is very important, but some factors are more significant than others. At the top are two - determining precisely what the optimum cartridge OAL is for a specific bullet and load, and having uniform case lengths. There are many others of decreasing importance, including flash hole, neck wall thickness, and case weight uniformity. Books have been written about all this stuff for those who are so inclined. But all those BR guys want one hole groups at 100 and 200 yards. Most of us don't need anywhere near that degree of precision.

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Old 06-09-2017, 05:32 AM
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Neck Reaming: I have 1960 era RCBS cartridge forming die sets, that the neck wall thickness was done from the inside with a reaming die and hand crank ream. It was more precise than anything available back then.

I once converted about 250 223 cases into 200 30 Mauser cases in about 60 or 70 minutes. First band saw the 223 neck and shoulder off and FL sizing in a 30 Mauser die. The neck was about 3 times too thick and the case mouth jagged, plus way too long. With a Forrester case Trimmer and using a .307/.308 ream as a pilot, Trim to length. I ruined several cases due to haste, but like I said I was done in like 20 seconds a case.

Good neck turning, takes about a minute to remove .005 or so neck wall thickness with a power attachment on the Forrester system. In Cartridge conversions you often have .015 to .025 to remove. That would take a very long time per case. Most military weapons don't need that kind of precision, but if you did, you could ream it thick, and then turn the outside. The hand neck turning tools take much longer!

A what most people don't know, is that the cutter rides up and down the neck several times. (2 to 8 passes, depending) You do it until nothing comes off. Reaming, especially power reaming is a one pass operation. It boils down to, "How much precision do you really need?"

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Old 06-09-2017, 08:22 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by firearmsunlimited View Post
Unless you have an tight neck chamber turning necks is a waist of time. Any improvement of 1 to 3 thousands will not effect accuracy in a standard SAAMI spec chamber. The only time it could be advantageous with a standard chamber is if the concentricity measurement or neck thickness is 5 thousands per side out. You need a neck concentricity gauge to measure that. Relative to a previous post, benchrest shooters turn necks because their chamber are tight neck reamed. Turning the necks with a 2 thousands per side clearance allows them the best alignment possible.
Thanks all for your comments. And I agree with the above statement.
I asked the question because, after investing in measuring and turning equipment, my experience using a factory barrel and chamber has not justified the effort - at least at ranges up to 200 yards. I have not seen an improvement in accuracy or cartridge performance between turned and non turned cases using the same loading. I'm shooting a 6.5x55mm using RL22 and Nosler match 140 JSPBT in groups of ten rounds. It's lots of fun tinkering with the equipment and I've learned much but the return on the effort as to improved cartridge performance isn't there.
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Old 06-09-2017, 09:10 AM
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. I'm shooting a 6.5x55mm using RL22 and Nosler match 140 JSPBT in groups of ten rounds. It's lots of fun tinkering with the equipment and I've learned much but the return on the effort as to improved cartridge performance isn't there.
The very first work I did with neck turning was many years ago with the 6.5x55mm. I had a custom 6.5x55 rifle built with a Mauser action and a Douglas barrel. At the time I was making 6.5 brass from .30-'06 brass, and the case neck walls were too thick. As a result I was getting high pressures and sticky extraction. So I started turning necks of the re-formed cases and that problem was solved. The only problem is that the base of the 6.5 brass is a little fatter than the .30-'06. For the first shot, I would run a thin strip of masking tape around the .30-'06 base to act as a chamber centralizer, then the case fire-formed uniformly to fit the chamber. After that, I neck-sized only. It worked well. That rifle is long gone, but I still have two other 6.5x55 rifles.
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Old 06-09-2017, 10:45 AM
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The only neck reaming/turning I do is for completion of cartridge conversions. The brass being too thick in the neck after being reformed into another caliber requiring it to be thinned in one way or another.
Usually I just use my lathe to turn the outside of the necks down.
Quick and simple and w/a couple of adj on the lathe locked down you can make repetitive cuts very quickly.
Just made up a bunch of 256Gibbs Magnum (Mannlicher) cases from 30-06 and used that method along with a shortened 6.5 Swede die.

On a couple of conversions,,303Brit to 6.5x53R for example, there is a ring of excess brass left inside the case neck at the junction of the neck and shoulder (donut?). The rest of the neck thickness is fine.
So w/o any fancy reamers and dies, I simply take the proper drill size (can't recall the letter) and run it down the neck to 'ream' that shoulder out.
Cringe factor is high when explained to high performance reloaders but it works fine. The brass then reloads easily and I usually toss it after 10 loadings. I use HXP 303 brass mostly.
I like to keep things simple, don't care to engage in benchrest type reloading techniques and 1" @ 100yrds is still the standard.
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Old 06-09-2017, 12:50 PM
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"I like to keep things simple, don't care to engage in benchrest type reloading techniques and 1" @ 100yrds is still the standard. "

One of the most misunderstood parts of shooting is what is meant by "1" @ 100 yards" and very few shooters really know what such a statement means. For example, how many shots are in that group? 3, 5, 10, or some other number? Is that 1" (extreme spread) derived from firing a single group or is it the average of multiple groups? And if it is an average of multiple groups, then how many groups? You may not believe it, but a SINGLE 10-shot group really contains 252 possible different five shot groups.

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Old 06-09-2017, 01:16 PM
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Quote:
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firearms-
Neck turning can mitigate a potentially dangerous high pressure situation should there be inadequate neck clearance.

Regarding the 'donut"... my explanation was poor. By turning 2/3rds, I was referring not to case neck length, but to circumference. Rather than turn the entire neck down to clean metal, I set the cutter to cut about 2/3, a very light cut. A heavier cut could be required, but this amount often works well.

Case necks thicken from brass flow.

Chamber cast could be used to provide dimensions if needed with a problem chamber. I have never run into this.

With the first firing of any brass, it is probably unlikely that a tight neck problem would exist. Possible with subsequent firings.

I stand by my original comments, all of which have a good basis. I respect your right to express your opinions, even if I may not agree. I will assume you have much experience, probably far greater than mine regarding neck turning and your statements are based on such.
In a standard SAAMI or minimum SAAMI reamed chamber it would be an impossibility for a tight neck issue to exist. If that were the case after resizing the bullet would simply drop into the case because if the outside neck diameter were equal to the chamber neck the inside neck diameter would be significantly larger than the bullet diameter.

Brass DOES NOT somehow magically migrate into the neck area UNLESS YOU PUT IT THERE by the resizing process or improper neck turning.

What dimension or measurement does your 2/3's formula represent? Normally reference to neck turning is stated in how many thousands of neck material is removed by the cutter.
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Old 06-09-2017, 01:31 PM
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Yes, neck turning or reaming using Forster equipment.

Only time it is done is when I form 30 Carbine brass into 5.7mm Johnson brass because the neck thickens during the forming process.
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  #27  
Old 06-09-2017, 01:49 PM
rockquarry rockquarry is online now
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The 2/3rds "formula" is merely an approximate starting point to insure an excess of material is not removed. However, that amount may be enough for some case necks so that clearance is safe.

Without setting up my equipment, I couldn't give a measurement. Neck turning is not a handloading procedure I perform on a regular basis. I may set up only a couple of times a year.

If you have suggestions as to how you do it, perhaps I can learn something and improve my methods.
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Old 06-09-2017, 02:02 PM
2152hq 2152hq is offline
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Originally Posted by DWalt View Post
"I like to keep things simple, don't care to engage in benchrest type reloading techniques and 1" @ 100yrds is still the standard. "

One of the most misunderstood parts of shooting is what is meant by "1" @ 100 yards" and very few shooters really know what such a statement means. For example, how many shots are in that group? 3, 5, 10, or some other number? Is that 1" (extreme spread) derived from firing a single group or is it the average of multiple groups? And if it is an average of multiple groups, then how many groups? You may not believe it, but a SINGLE 10-shot group really contains 252 possible different five shot groups.

It's very simple,,
I set up a target at 100yds or meters,,what ever the range is paced off at.
I shoot my rifle at the target at least 5 shots for the grouping.
If the 5 shots are inside a 1 inch circle at that distance,,it's a one inch group at 100yrds/m.

If they touch the edge of the circle I score them as a 'hit',,just like in Bullseye shooting. If they don't, they are outside the circle and a 'miss'.
Not fooling anybody,,nothing to prove to anyone.
I have an empty clear plastic pill bottle in the range bag that is just about 1"d (close enough) that I put over the group to gauge it quickly.

When I tire of that, which is generally pretty quickly, I switch to another gun or go to shooting sticks and leaves on the berm.
Then go home with a smile and lots of empty cases to reload again w/nonprecision, non-stress inducing methods.
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Old 06-09-2017, 05:06 PM
ImprovedModel56Fan ImprovedModel56Fan is offline
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Model520fan why were you compelled to ream the inside of the necks?
Well, I wasn't exactly compelled, but let me explain what was going on and I think that you'll see why I was doing what I was doing.

First off, if you are familiar with the Lee Target Loader, you will be aware that the reaming is done on a case already (outside) neck sized by a glorified knockout die, while still in the die. The axis of the reamer in operation is determined by the die, not by a supported or unsupported case neck (in fact, of course, the case neck is very definitely supported). Thus the reamer will only ream when there is something there to ream, and the correctness of Lee's reamer size is confirmed by the bullet seating process. Of more concern is whether the neck sizing is to optimum dimensions, but in the case of the Lee, there is no choice.

After initial reaming of new cartridge cases, there is little or no reaming going on for at least a few uses of the cases, even though one does actually insert the reamer into the die and case neck.

Hope this answers your question. If something is not clear, ask, and maybe I'll do a better job of answering.
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Old 06-12-2017, 10:09 AM
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I never neck turn.
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  #31  
Old 06-18-2017, 12:46 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Model520Fan View Post
Well, I wasn't exactly compelled, but let me explain what was going on and I think that you'll see why I was doing what I was doing.

First off, if you are familiar with the Lee Target Loader, you will be aware that the reaming is done on a case already (outside) neck sized by a glorified knockout die, while still in the die. The axis of the reamer in operation is determined by the die, not by a supported or unsupported case neck (in fact, of course, the case neck is very definitely supported). Thus the reamer will only ream when there is something there to ream, and the correctness of Lee's reamer size is confirmed by the bullet seating process. Of more concern is whether the neck sizing is to optimum dimensions, but in the case of the Lee, there is no choice.

After initial reaming of new cartridge cases, there is little or no reaming going on for at least a few uses of the cases, even though one does actually insert the reamer into the die and case neck.

Hope this answers your question. If something is not clear, ask, and maybe I'll do a better job of answering.
That makes sense. Based upon your explanation it sounds more like a preventative measure operation.
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Old 06-18-2017, 01:00 PM
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Originally Posted by 2152hq View Post
It's very simple,,
I set up a target at 100yds or meters,,what ever the range is paced off at.
I shoot my rifle at the target at least 5 shots for the grouping.
If the 5 shots are inside a 1 inch circle at that distance,,it's a one inch group at 100yrds/m.

If they touch the edge of the circle I score them as a 'hit',,just like in Bullseye shooting. If they don't, they are outside the circle and a 'miss'.
Not fooling anybody,,nothing to prove to anyone.
I have an empty clear plastic pill bottle in the range bag that is just about 1"d (close enough) that I put over the group to gauge it quickly.

When I tire of that, which is generally pretty quickly, I switch to another gun or go to shooting sticks and leaves on the berm.
Then go home with a smile and lots of empty cases to reload again w/nonprecision, non-stress inducing methods.
FYI, If your 5 shots are within a 1" circle your group is actually smaller than 1". To figure group size you measure the distance to the outside edge of the furthest bullet holes and then subtract the diameter of the bullet. For example, if the two furthest bullet holes were touching the outside of the 1" circle and you were shooting a .243 bullet your group size would actually be .757
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