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Old 06-10-2017, 05:06 AM
pmgnicol pmgnicol is offline
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38spl loaded to 357mag....possible??? 38spl loaded to 357mag....possible??? 38spl loaded to 357mag....possible??? 38spl loaded to 357mag....possible??? 38spl loaded to 357mag....possible???  
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Hi there. I have a S&W686-6 with a 6inch barrel and currently shoot 158gn rn projectiles and 5.5gns of AP70 powder. This is good enough for me to meet minor power factor for IPSC comps. What I want to know is...is it possible to load 38spl cases to 357mag loads. Having checked the ADi website for 357mag cases I would need 6.3gns of AP70 to meet power factor for major. The 38spl cases still have loads of room in them to accommodate 6.3gns. Its less than a grain higher than what I am shooting now and I am seeing no adverse effects on the cases, primers etc at present. It would be amazing to be able to up my powder charge in 38spl to major power factor. Any thoughts........
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Old 06-10-2017, 05:18 AM
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It is possible.

It is not the greatest idea in the world. For one thing, there's always the chance then, of forgetting and dropping a Magnum'd .38 Spl into a .38 revolver. For another, your ammo might get mixed up. For a third, somebody else might come to get a hold of a box of your Magnum'd .38 loads, and use them in a .38 revolver.

For all of the potential Bad Things That Can Happen, buying some used .357 Magnum brass, or a bag of 500 brand-new cases from Starline is cheap insurance.

As a side note, I would also suggest taking velocities from reloading data with a grain of salt. It may be less, it may be more. A chronograph can be had pretty cheaply.
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Old 06-10-2017, 06:48 AM
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Ditto for what Wise A said.

Especially that bit about not believing what you see in reloading data. For example Vihtavouri uses a "6.5 inch" barrel for their 38 special data but it must be the fastest 6.5 inch barrel on the planet because what I've seen across my chronograph with my 6 inch Dan Wesson 15-2 is over 150 fps under what Vihtavouri's data would indicate.
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Old 06-10-2017, 07:48 AM
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Skeeter Skelton was doing what you ask about years ago. He wrote several articals on his 357 mag loads, in 38 spl brass, using 2400 powder. An internet search should turn up what you are looking for.
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Old 06-10-2017, 08:11 AM
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Wise_A's advise about says it. My Wife has a J frame and a LCR. She knows 38spl fits her revolvers. She doesn't know what all the numbers are that I've written on the ammo boxes.
357mag cases new or once fired, will be cheap insurance. If nothing else also you'll avoid the carbon build up before the cylinder throat.
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Old 06-10-2017, 08:50 AM
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Thomasinaz's suggestion is good
Do a search....read about it


From searches, the Forum knowledge base results list several particulars
Only using new 38 special cases
357 cases availability
Seating long
Crimping in different locators on the bullet
And many more....

My thought
Keep it simple
Use 357 cases in 357 guns and 357 load data
38 special cases in 38 special guns and 38 special load data

I shoot a 686 6 inch and buying 1000 new Starline 357 cases makes reloading life so simple. So many issues just disappear!
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Old 06-10-2017, 09:04 AM
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There have been previous threads about this, and indeed it is possible, except bullets should be seated out a bit to enlarge the available case volume under the bullet. The principal reason that .357 cases are made longer is so that they cannot be fully chambered in a weaker .38 Special revolver.
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Old 06-10-2017, 09:17 AM
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Yes ago I did not have hardly any 357 mag cases and was too poor to buy any . I loaded up 38 spl cases using older load data to approx 357 mag levels . I did notice it shortened case life but I had so many 38 spl cases it really didn't matter . They were shot out of my model 19 .
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Old 06-10-2017, 11:51 AM
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Anything is "possible" Is it advisable or safe is another question.

Yes you can load 38 special to NEAR 357 mag levels but due to the 38 spl being a bit shorter you need to allow for that. So at LEAST a 10% reduction in 357 powder charges would be wise.

Brian Pearce has a spiel about it in some magazine

Also depends a lot on what powder(s) you use.

Trying to "read" handgun brass for "signs of over pressure" is really like tea leaves.
The probable only sign over over pressure will be a major Kboom,

I have never used AP70 (n) but per ADI it is kinda/sorta around the same speed as Unique and Universal within 5%
For whatever that's worth.
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Old 06-10-2017, 12:37 PM
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Even though I'm the only one to use my reloads, I'm a bit uneasy loading 38 up to 357 or even +P levels. I have 3, 38 Special revolvers but only one 357 Magnum and I wouldn't want to run a "hot+" round through my snubs.

One thing to remember is that with the decreased case capacity the pressures in a 38 Special case, using the same charge as used in a 357 Magnum case, will be much higher...

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Old 06-10-2017, 01:05 PM
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I load, and shoot 38/44, never have had a problem. All ammo boxes are marked as to the load, and guns for use.

Also keep in mind that S&W proofs their handguns to MUCH higher pressure than SAAMI, IIRC somewhere around 50K. When the 38/44 was a factory round it was advertised that Colts could handle them. The Colt Official Police was built on a .41 caliber frame. Not only did they advertise them for the OP, they also advertised the small Police Positive safe for use of the 38/44.

As I have pointed out before I was friends with a detective who carried factory 38/44 in his duty J frame. Not sure how much he shot it with the hot loads but I do know of one occasion, his gun did not blow up. Nor did it show any indication of becoming out of time from one round.

Even standard ammo puts wear on a gun, though it could take a century before that wear is noticed. The hotter the ammo the quicker the wear, minimal use of hot ammo is doubtful to blow a gun up. Unless something is wrong with the gun in the first place.

38/44 tends to give impressive results with less pressure than .357, could be that less powder is needed for the same velocity. IIRC the pressure for 38/44 was around 25K CUP, far below than .357 standard pressure. I doubt I am the only one to clock random factory ammo at much higher velocity than possible for a correct load. Or much less, though so far I have not had a factory squib, but some damn weak ones. I weigh every single charge on 38/44 loads, well all loads.

If a person is shooting from a gun rated for 35K, then 25K is not going to be dangerous. Reloads should never passed to anybody in any load unless the source is well known. Use common sense, and make wise decisions. Remember that we are not responsible for your decisions, no matter how much free advice we give.
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Old 06-10-2017, 01:11 PM
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I only go as far as maximum recommended 38spl loads out of my 357 guns.. my 38spl guns get turned down 38spl loads.

But as noted above, I don't want to confuse the issue.
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Old 06-10-2017, 01:17 PM
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Seems to me I loaded 38 special nickel to 38/44 data and fired in 357 revolver. Maybe cross check this for your self. I think this is 357 lite.
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Old 06-10-2017, 01:30 PM
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I think there's a misconception that all 357 magnums revolvers are stronger than 38spl revolvers. The main difference in 38sp,l and 357 mag is case length. The extra case length reduces pressure. While you can cram the same amount of powder in a spl case there isn't any room left over or not enough room to dampen the pressure spike that would occur when it is fired. Take the very strong GP 100 for example. Both 38spl and 357 mag versions of this gun are virtually the same with exception of the cylinder length. While these guns have the same metallurgy and are the same dimensionally ( except for the length of the chambers) , Ruger will tell you never to load anything past +P power levels.. This is all because of the lack of leftover space within the 38spl case after you load a magnum charge of H110 or W296 into it. Short answer is yes, it can be done, but how many times before you run out of luck and hurt yourself?
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Old 06-10-2017, 02:53 PM
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The cylinder length on the GP100 is the same between 38spl, and 357. The only difference is the reaming of the chambers. Ruger heat treats all their guns to the same specs. I would guess that S&W does so also, it just doesn't make sense to have two separate processes for the same frame. Companies are not going to spend more money to make a weaker frame.

The problem with the K frame is the undercut forcing cone. If a 1930's Colt Police Positive can handle 25k CUP I would bet the modern K frame can in limited use.
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Old 06-10-2017, 03:54 PM
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"Also keep in mind that S&W proofs their handguns to MUCH higher pressure than SAAMI, IIRC somewhere around 50K. When the 38/44 was a factory round it was advertised that Colts could handle them. The Colt Official Police was built on a .41 caliber frame. Not only did they advertise them for the OP, they also advertised the small Police Positive safe for use of the 38/44."

It even goes beyond that. Back in the 1930s the ammunition manufacturers advertised that .38/44 ammunition could be used in any sound .38 Special revolver, warning only that the recoil would be heavier if used in lighter framed revolvers. Many, many people back then, especially cops, used .38/44 ammunition in whatever .38 revolvers they had. I don't remember reading anything about Ka-Booms resulting from that practice, but it probably did accelerate wear.
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Old 06-10-2017, 04:15 PM
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If you are truly sure that you and you alone would be using this over pressure ammo this might be an OK idea.
If there is a possibility not probability but a possibility that anyone other than you may use this ammo I don't see it as a good idea.
I am pretty careful about my loads but I wouldn't trust myself to be positive of what every individual .38 bullet pressure is whenever I pick one up.
Brass is cheap enough insurance that no one will drop one into an older .38 J frame. A much safer option to me.
40 years ago one of my less than diligent friends blew up a brand new Chief's Special with a high pressure .38. It was in an indoor range and the top strap was never found. He was lucky it didn't get buried in his forehead.
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Old 06-10-2017, 05:38 PM
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I think WiseA sums it up pretty well.
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Old 06-10-2017, 06:06 PM
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The ".357 load in a .38 casing" Skelton used did not use just any bullet. It was a cast SWC with TWO crimping grooves. Seat and crimp the bullet in the lower groove and the resulting, longer cartridge had about the same powder space as a .357 casing with the same bullet. Seat and crimp the bullet in the upper groove and the resulting shorter cartridge had about the same powder space as a .38 Special.

That particular bullet was designed that way because, back then, .357 brass was new, scarce and expensive while .38 Special was like white on rice.

People forget or never knew; Skelton and the others weren't doing this with just ANY bullet.
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Old 06-10-2017, 06:16 PM
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Yes, you can probably load 38spl to 357 levels, but you could also load it to grenade levels too, why? Buy a gun in caliber that performs at the level you seek, not try to make something it isn't.
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Old 06-10-2017, 06:39 PM
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If I am not mistaken Keith was doing it before there was a .357 magnum. Plus guns were specifically made for 38-44 in the 1930's. Colt medium frame, and S&W large frame. If a person has a gun that is built to 38-44 standards it is completely up to them to load however they choose.

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Old 06-10-2017, 07:12 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thomasinaz View Post
Skeeter Skelton was doing what you ask about years ago. He wrote several articals on his 357 mag loads, in 38 spl brass, using 2400 powder. An internet search should turn up what you are looking for.
The secrete to what he did was using bullets cast from Lyman mould #358156. It has two crimping grooves. The upper was for use in 357 magnum cases, the lower was for use as with 38 special cases. The bullet would be seated out farther giving similar case capacities as with hard to come by 357 magnum cases.
You could safely load magnum loads in 38 special cases and the bullet being seated farther out kept it from being chambered and fired in a 38 special revolver.
The real danger in loading up magnum loads in a special case is when they find their way into and are fired in a 38 special gun....especially an older one or a J-frame .
The Lyman #358156 was the very first 38 cal. mould I bought and it covered a lot of different uses, very versatile and was the only 38 mould I had for years for two 38 specials and one 357 magnum.
Your idea can be done, I've done it for years , but it has to be done correctly ...use the right bullet and seat them to the correct depth.
Gary

Last edited by gwpercle; 06-13-2017 at 12:06 PM. Reason: spelling
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Old 06-10-2017, 07:26 PM
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Yes it can be done, with a 38 case, to reach 357 loadings.

Lets say you have four boxes of these on you shelf along with
ten to twelve regular boxes or standard 38 special ammo.
Maybe even a 100 plastic box pack as well.........

I just posted my " not for the squeamish" post.

Now if this happens to you, and one box breaks open......
you will now need to toss them or......
"Do you fell lucky", "Well do you" ?
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Old 06-10-2017, 07:52 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nevada Ed View Post
Yes it can be done, with a 38 case, to reach 357 loadings.

Lets say you have four boxes of these on you shelf along with
ten to twelve regular boxes or standard 38 special ammo.
Maybe even a 100 plastic box pack as well.........

I just posted my " not for the squeamish" post.

Now if this happens to you, and one box breaks open......
you will now need to toss them or......
"Do you fell lucky", "Well do you" ?
Ever hear of powder coating, makes sorting those rounds easy.
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Old 06-10-2017, 08:30 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Walkingwolf View Post
If I am not mistaken Keith was doing it before there was a .357 magnum.

In reading some background material on early magnums, I ran across some references that Keith severely damaged a number of guns with his experimenting. Sort of like the old "tighten the bolt until it snaps and then back off 1/4 turn."
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Old 06-10-2017, 08:39 PM
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Quote:
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In reading some background material on early magnums, I ran across some references that Keith severely damaged a number of guns with his experimenting. Sort of like the old "tighten the bolt until it snaps and then back off 1/4 turn."
Keith went past the factory 38-44, and he shot a LOT of rounds. Probably more than all of us put together.

We probably would not have the magnums if it wasn't Keith, and I am sure I know his response if there was an internet in his day.

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Old 06-10-2017, 10:15 PM
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Please don't load 38 Spl cases to 357 Mag levels. You can get a real good heavy 38 Spl +P "High Velocity" loading using 6 grs Power Pistol and 158 gr SWC cast. You'll get about 1,030 fps in 6 inch revolvers equally the old Remington 38 Spl Hi-Speed (38-44) loading of the 1960s...I've seen chronograph data confirming this (however, some of the 1930s vintage factory 38-44s were hotter...but that is another subject pretty much hashed out in this forum).

In addition, a 1,100 fps 38 Spl (11.0 grs 2400, 158 gr SWC) is doable in 6 inch tubes, but those are used only in my 357 Mag revolver. I'm not recommending nor suggesting that load to anyone, but it was once listed in Lyman data manuals.
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Old 06-10-2017, 11:58 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thomasinaz View Post
Skeeter Skelton was doing what you ask about years ago. He wrote several articals on his 357 mag loads, in 38 spl brass, using 2400 powder. An internet search should turn up what you are looking for.
What Skeeter was doing was loading one bullet, the Lyman 358156 with two crimp grooves, to 357 over all length with 38 spl brass. DO not substitute components and try to repeat this.
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Old 06-11-2017, 03:02 AM
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One other reason, not to do it, is not all 38 Special cases are strong enough especially if you have some wadcutter cases still in your inventory. All 357 case are designed for SAAMI's max. of 35K psi, but not 38 Special's.

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Old 06-13-2017, 07:27 AM
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Yep, some good feedback here for sure. There is no issue of mixing rounds up. I am the only user and very particular. My question was is it possible/ok with the load data that I have provided. All I am trying to do is find out if the 38spl brasses and the pistol can handle the 357 charges. This will allow me to run a major PF round that is still the same length as the 38spl which means my reload technique and times will not need to change and I wont have to readjust my dies from one to the other.
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Old 06-13-2017, 07:28 AM
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38spl loaded to 357mag....possible??? 38spl loaded to 357mag....possible??? 38spl loaded to 357mag....possible??? 38spl loaded to 357mag....possible??? 38spl loaded to 357mag....possible???  
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I just want to shoot 38spl major with the powder and projectiles that I currently use.
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Old 06-13-2017, 08:52 AM
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I just want to shoot 38spl major with the powder and projectiles that I currently use.
Your question is common and reasonable.

But the combination you want to use violates the Rules!
Refer to ADI's Handloaders Guide WARNING SECTION ITEM 1 BULLET 1
AND ITEM 2 on page 33 of the 6th edition

SAFETY AND WARNING RULES, JUST LIKE RANGE RULES ARE NOT TO BE IGNORED.

Anyone not willing to follow these rules, shouldn't be shooting at a range, nor be reloading.

Look at other powders and if you find a combination that works with different die settings....buy another set of dies.
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Old 06-13-2017, 08:59 AM
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Fair comment. As i cannot seem to get a conclusive answer to this issue i will load accordingly to 357 using 357 cases. The question i would ask tho is that according to the rules.......how are loads developed if not by some trial and error. Thanks.
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Old 06-13-2017, 09:10 AM
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The only way for YOU to tell is to load some Max +P 38 special loads and CHRONOGRAPH them to see if you meet your power factor.

As I mentioned above, a 10% reduction of 357 mag data (which may be around a 38 spl +P) is the max you should go.

Use new brass, and at your own risk!
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Old 06-13-2017, 09:28 AM
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Fair comment. As i cannot seem to get a conclusive answer to this issue i will load accordingly to 357 using 357 cases. The question i would ask tho is that according to the rules.......how are loads developed if not by some trial and error. Thanks.
Published Safe loads are generally developed with devices that read actual pressure. Most of us can't afford such equipment.
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Old 06-13-2017, 09:39 AM
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I have one comment about loading .38 SPL cases loaded to .357 Magnum ballistics: Learn to write with your weak hand!

As a matter of personal policy, I don't overload .38 SPL. I don't underload* .357 magnum (below minimum specs). I don't give away hand loaded ammunition.

Powder that is too loose or too compressed can have unpredictable pressure spikes. Case capacity between .38 and .357 is nominal, but you can't be too safe.

I shoot pistol caliber carbines, including .357 Magnum. A light load might not push the bullet out of the barrel. If that happens it sounds like this -- "click". That's right, nada, no sound other than the hammer falling. You'll hear the next one okay.
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Old 06-13-2017, 10:03 AM
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Guys; In my post about the Skeeter load I didn't post any specifics as to powder charge or bullet. It ended with "An internet search should turn up what you are looking for". Skeeter's 357 level loads, in 38 brass, included several using other than the 358156. I figured the OP maybe never heard of Skeeter, and passed on the info to look up some of his writings on his 357 Magnum loads...... relax.
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Old 06-14-2017, 08:49 PM
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c/o post 37;

Relax..........

Most of us old timers know how "Skeeter" invented hot loads....
and also "Killed" many a fine S&W weapon, in his testings.

I just don't put my 38 brass to that high pressure, to get just four loads out of it, if lucky.
In 357 cases you can get ten or more loadings......

but then I am sort of low on money.
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Old 06-15-2017, 01:49 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pmgnicol View Post
All I am trying to do is find out if the 38spl brasses and the pistol can handle the 357 charges.
Apparently I've been using invisible ink again.

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Originally Posted by BLUEDOT37 View Post
One other reason, not to do it, is not all 38 Special cases are strong enough especially if you have some wadcutter cases still in your inventory. All 357 case are designed for SAAMI's max. of 35K psi, but not 38 Special's.
.
.
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Old 06-16-2017, 02:32 PM
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Just use nickel plated cases, like them auto-loaders do.
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Old 06-17-2017, 09:55 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thomasinaz View Post
Skeeter Skelton was doing what you ask about years ago. He wrote several articals on his 357 mag loads, in 38 spl brass, using 2400 powder. An internet search should turn up what you are looking for.
One of my next projects is to work up some of Skeeters loads for my 357 Mag. revolvers using my NOE clone of the Lyman Ray Thompson 358156 double crimp groove bullet. I've shot plenty of these in 357 Mag. cases but never in 38 spec. cases. I'm more interested in something along the lines of a +P+ loading. I have more once fired 38 special brass than I will ever wear out.




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Old 06-17-2017, 10:05 AM
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To my knowledge I have never read where Skeeter " killed " many a fine S&W revolver working up his loads . I have read many many of his writings and never found any statements of that . He and Elmer Keith , both have been tagged with that impression . I read of Elmer only destroying one gun , a Colt SAA on the 4th of July . Both successful writers that left us with much, even today . Let's be thankful for both of them and stop the internet myths .
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Old 06-17-2017, 10:25 AM
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To my knowledge I have never read where Skeeter " killed " many a fine S&W revolver working up his loads . I have read many many of his writings and never found any statements of that . He and Elmer Keith , both have been tagged with that impression . I read of Elmer only destroying one gun , a Colt SAA on the 4th of July . Both successful writers that left us with much, even today . Let's be thankful for both of them and stop the internet myths .
Couldn't have said it any better...
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Old 06-17-2017, 04:26 PM
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Me two................
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Old 06-17-2017, 05:44 PM
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Here is a few good reads on the Skeeter loads.

The Bullets of Skeeter Skelton

My Friend, The .357
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Old 06-17-2017, 06:46 PM
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Quote:
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Hi there. I have a S&W686-6 with a 6inch barrel and currently shoot 158gn rn projectiles and 5.5gns of AP70 powder. This is good enough for me to meet minor power factor for IPSC comps. What I want to know is...is it possible to load 38spl cases to 357mag loads. Having checked the ADi website for 357mag cases I would need 6.3gns of AP70 to meet power factor for major. The 38spl cases still have loads of room in them to accommodate 6.3gns. Its less than a grain higher than what I am shooting now and I am seeing no adverse effects on the cases, primers etc at present. It would be amazing to be able to up my powder charge in 38spl to major power factor. Any thoughts........
It's probably possible, but please promise to let me know when you are going to the range to test them. I will be sure to stay home that day. :-)
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