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Old 06-16-2017, 04:20 PM
SLT223 SLT223 is offline
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Default Leading with xtreme plated 148 DEWC

Gun is a 620. Load xtreme 148 over 3gr Tight Group. All was fine until the round rount got north of 200. The gun was rather hot and I started noticing ouffs of smoke...like the kind you get with lead...I used taper crimp inly with these.

Here's what the recessed crown looked like after shooting:





Yes, that is lead.

Here's what a 620 crown looks like clean for comparison:



How did I manage this?

Last edited by SLT223; 06-18-2017 at 04:34 PM.
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Old 06-16-2017, 05:35 PM
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For one, Titegroup burns extremely hot, and I would not use it with lead myself.
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Old 06-16-2017, 06:13 PM
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I've shot lots of Xtreme plated bullets out of revolvers and semi-autos and the only time I've had leading problems I found I was cutting or scrapping the plating off. Maybe your taper crimp is cutting through. Pull a bullet and see what it looks like. Their SWC or RNFP bullet has no crimp band and I've got to be careful not to roll crimp right through the plating.
I'm holding off ordering more of their plated revolver bullets. Without the crimp band and a good roll crimp my stouter mag loads seem to be dirtier than when I use a coated SWC with a good roll crimp. I think I'm getting better powder burn with that roll crimp.
Love their plated semi-auto bullets.
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Old 06-16-2017, 06:27 PM
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The xtreme 148 grain DEWC's I looked at were swaged lead then copper plated. That means it is a soft core with a thin plating.
The 3.0 grains of Titegroup (the Hodgdon powder right) should not be a problem. It sounds spot on for that bullet and target loads.
I honestly believe it's the barrel rifling. The new ECM process S&W uses can leave a bit rough and they lead until enough jacketed bullets are fired or unless they are fire lapped or hand lapped smooth.
I shoot this load in an old model 64 (made in 1973) the barrel is very smooth from years of shooting and this load with fairly soft cast lead WC's shows not one speck of leading.
I was going to buy a new model 66 when they came out but the fellow doing the review experienced the same lead build up with cast bullets . He scoped it carefully and concluded the EDM process that makes the lands and grooves were the problem , since it wasn't his gun he didn't try lapping it . It did OK with all jacketed bullets, he didn't test plated but plated are not that hard. I didn't buy the new model 66 because all I shoot is cast lead.
Try shooting a bunch of jacketed and maybe do a fire lapping .
Your load doesn't lead like that in my 1973 model 64 , something's else is going on. Good luck .
Gary

Last edited by gwpercle; 06-18-2017 at 04:52 PM.
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Old 06-16-2017, 06:33 PM
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Gw, you just reminded me I got 158 hardcast coated to jump the EDM "grooves" in this gun two years ago. I think the plating is getting banged up when the EDM rifling fails to fully grab the slug.

Edit:
This gun is a tack driver with all other xtreme bullets. It's seen over 10k Xtreme flat point and SWC's. Those are not soft lead, and have caused nothing but accuracy.

Last edited by SLT223; 06-16-2017 at 06:50 PM.
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Old 06-16-2017, 06:51 PM
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You have a hot burning powder with a bullet that is outrunning the lube.
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Old 06-16-2017, 08:10 PM
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Quote:
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You have a hot burning powder with a bullet that is outrunning the lube.
Negative Ghostrider. The bullet is plated.
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Old 06-16-2017, 09:02 PM
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That crown looks very deep.As soon as the bullet's base gets in it,the gasses are blowing by and cause the leading.

I'd try regular lubed bullets with 2.8 Titegroup and if it doesn't improve,I'd probably call it a ''jacketed bullet barrel''.
Qc
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Old 06-16-2017, 09:31 PM
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I've used Titegroup for over 15 years now and have never had Leading like that. I get a very slight amount in the Forcing Cone and a little in the ends of the Cylinder's Charge Holes but never get any at the tip of the barrel.

I load mild loads for target shooting and use 2.7 grains of the Titegroup under 148 grain lead WC's. I use 3.2 grains with 158 grain RNL. Never a problem like your picture shows.

Last edited by chief38; 06-16-2017 at 09:32 PM.
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Old 06-18-2017, 02:28 PM
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Confirmed: It's the ECM rifling. This afternoon my 66-1 launched them sans issue.
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Old 06-18-2017, 02:38 PM
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So it can't possibly be the recessed crown because the 66 has one, too?

Maybe, "it's the gun."
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Old 06-18-2017, 03:08 PM
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Originally Posted by mike campbell View Post
So it can't possibly be the recessed crown because the 66 has one, too?

Maybe, "it's the gun."
Of course it's the gun. The rifling is part of the gun isn't it?

We are talking about plated bullets. You have to break the copper plating before you can have a leading issue.

ECM rifling is almost as smooth shouldered as polygnal. It's no wonder to me the gun can't shoot lead or swaged plated worth a poop.

I will reiterate, the gun exhibits no issues and is a tack driver with all other xtreme plated bullets.

Last edited by SLT223; 06-18-2017 at 04:51 PM.
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Old 06-18-2017, 03:25 PM
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This is just one of the many reason I'll never buy Titegroup again.
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Old 06-18-2017, 03:42 PM
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This is just one of the many reason I'll never buy Titegroup again.
Again bullets are plated...no exposed lead....unless the plating is broken.

My 66-1 shot these rounds perfectly.
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Old 06-18-2017, 04:56 PM
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Been playing around with some Titegroup to see if I could find a better load than Bullseye. Just ran some Berrys and Xtreme plated DEWC, HBWC and SWC up to 3.5 gr. Also tried some Missouri Coated DEWC as well. Very light crimp from my Lee Factory Crimp Die. Shot a total of around 600 bullets between 2 guns. Absolutely no leading in my 6" mod 686 or 3" mod 66. Both barrels look like they've been shot with jacketed bullets. I'm guessing too tight of a crimp which did cause me a few minor issues when I went from lead to plated. Didn't like the Titegroup as well as I do Bullseye but it didn't perform bad.
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Old 06-18-2017, 05:09 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SLT223 View Post
Confirmed: It's the ECM rifling. This afternoon my 66-1 launched them sans issue.
I was confused about the term EDM and ECM , the new method S&W uses to rifle it's barrel.
I had read in a review it was EDM- Electrical Discharge Machining...which sounded right.
But I kept seeing references to a ECM process - Electro Chemical Machining ! So what is it EDM - ECM, Po-tay-toe , po-tot-toe ?
Turns out S&W uses the ECM process to rifle barrels !
I read the explanation of how both processes work and don't understand any of it....lets just say it ain't how they did it back when S&W guns were made ....lets just say the way I like them ! ECM may be a fast and profital way to make guns but the shooting results of lead in a new production model 66 stopped me from buying it. My old model 64 will do me just fine. Sometimes new isn't better.
Gary
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Old 06-18-2017, 05:30 PM
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Originally Posted by gwpercle View Post
I was confused about the term EDM and ECM , the new method S&W uses to rifle it's barrel.
I had read in a review it was EDM- Electrical Discharge Machining...which sounded right.
But I kept seeing references to a ECM process - Electro Chemical Machining ! So what is it EDM - ECM, Po-tay-toe , po-tot-toe ?
Turns out S&W uses the ECM process to rifle barrels !
I read the explanation of how both processes work and don't understand any of it....lets just say it ain't how they did it back when S&W guns were made ....lets just say the way I like them ! ECM may be a fast and profital way to make guns but the shooting results of lead in a new production model 66 stopped me from buying it. My old model 64 will do me just fine. Sometimes new isn't better.
Gary
I agree! It's definitely not a perfect process either. I picked up a new 3-5-7 Talo 3 inch at an LGS, and there was almost no discernible rifling whatsoever. I wonder how that one could even hold onto an FMJ at 1000fps +?
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Old 06-18-2017, 06:51 PM
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Interesting. I understand the ECM process has been used at least 10 years now. I have 3 S&W revolvers that fall into that time frame. My 686 (2013) and 627 (2016) have both run many hard cast lead bullets without excessive leading. As mentioned when I did have a leading problem it was with Xtreme SWC's and RNFP's and I was roll crimping through the cannelure band. SLT223 - You mention where you've not had this problem with any other Xtreme bullet. On their web site I'm not finding where they say it's made any different from the others. Did I miss that?
My new 69 has so far seen nothing but Xtreme 240gr. RNFP's and again, no signs of leading. Also, the rifling in all 3 are not rough at all. Comparing them to an older 629 the only difference I can notice is the edges of the lands might not be as sharp.
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Old 06-18-2017, 07:16 PM
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Interesting. I understand the ECM process has been used at least 10 years now. I have 3 S&W revolvers that fall into that time frame. My 686 (2013) and 627 (2016) have both run many hard cast lead bullets without excessive leading. As mentioned when I did have a leading problem it was with Xtreme SWC's and RNFP's and I was roll crimping through the cannelure band. SLT223 - You mention where you've not had this problem with any other Xtreme bullet. On their web site I'm not finding where they say it's made any different from the others. Did I miss that?
My new 69 has so far seen nothing but Xtreme 240gr. RNFP's and again, no signs of leading. Also, the rifling in all 3 are not rough at all. Comparing them to an older 629 the only difference I can notice is the edges of the lands might not be as sharp.
I see where you are reading that. I was getting it from Gw in post #5. Made sense to me since I've launched their SWC's and FP's at magnum velocity with great success. Maybe Gw can clarify. I'll defer to him
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Old 06-19-2017, 03:19 AM
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Default Leading using Xtreme's 44 bullets

Just just ran across a similar situation.

I've been using Xtreme's bullets for a long time without issue in my S&W's with EDM/ECM rifling... until a few weeks ago when I loaded up some work-up loads using Xtreme's 240gr RNFP for my new M69.

All taper crimped. I've loaded many hundreds of these & with powder charges that I have tested the most accurate. All in the 1000-1100 fps range.

I started noticing lead deposits on the chamfered muzzle of the new M69, & my 629-6 I was shooting as a comparison. The 629 had rifle leading the last ~2" of the barrel. The M69 had it just the last <1". Both had it splattered on the muzzle too. The 629 was the worst.

I just reloaded (100) more work-up loads & gave them extra light taper crimps. I've never had this with any Xtreme bullets before. I've always used a moderate taper crimp. If they still have the same trouble I have to assume something changed with how they're making the bullets? Don't know, this is strange.

I'm going to the range this week to try them.

.
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Old 06-19-2017, 09:21 AM
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Originally Posted by BLUEDOT37 View Post
Just just ran across a similar situation.

I've been using Xtreme's bullets for a long time without issue in my S&W's with EDM/ECM rifling... until a few weeks ago when I loaded up some work-up loads using Xtreme's 240gr RNFP for my new M69.

All taper crimped. I've loaded many hundreds of these & with powder charges that I have tested the most accurate. All in the 1000-1100 fps range.

I started noticing lead deposits on the chamfered muzzle of the new M69, & my 629-5 I was shooting as a comparison. The 629 had rifle leading the last ~2" of the barrel. The M69 had it just the last <1". Both had it splattered on the muzzle too. The 629 was the worst.

I just reloaded (100) more work-up loads & gave them extra light taper crimps. I've never had this with any Xtreme bullets before. I've always used a moderate taper crimp. If they still have the same trouble I have to assume something changed with how they're making the bullets? Don't know, this is strange.

I'm going to the range this week to try them.

.
I think it might time for us to start mic'ing the bullets. If they worked fine before and not now, maybe the diameters are a bit on the skinny side as of late? If not that l, maybe the plating chnaged? I have plenty of their .429's and .357's of current production and older. Ill bust out the calipers this evening.
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Old 06-19-2017, 09:50 AM
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Do all of these guns have counterbored muzzles ? Is this some new design feature? My last new S&W was my 22-5 about 6 - 7 years ago, and its muzzle doesn't look like that.

Larry
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Old 06-19-2017, 10:22 AM
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Do all of these guns have counterbored muzzles ? Is this some new design feature? My last new S&W was my 22-5 about 6 - 7 years ago, and its muzzle doesn't look like that.

Larry
Larry what you are looking at in this thread is the old two piece barrel set up found on the 620, alloy 520, 619, and the lat model 64's. That being said I dont think the muzzle design is a contributing factor here.

Last edited by SLT223; 06-19-2017 at 10:51 AM.
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Old 06-20-2017, 12:54 AM
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I think it might time for us to start mic'ing the bullets.
If not that l, maybe the plating chnaged?
Actually I had (re)checked them for a different reason last week & they (the latest lot received) mic'd right at my originally documented measurement for this bullet, .4296", so that's okay.

I've shot a lot of these, without issues, so I'm really surprised at this. Will update later.

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Old 06-20-2017, 07:28 AM
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SLT223, a question for you. Are you combining Seating and Crimping into one operation or doing these steps separately. I ask because I have had so many issues trying to combine seating and crimping that I won't every try using a combined setup again. One issue I encountered when trying to Seat/Crimp 45 ACP JACKETED bullets was that as the Taper Crimp started to engage the rim would "bite" into the jacket on the bullet and shave a ring of copper from the jacket. Sometimes that shave ring could actually be grabbed with tweezers and stripped from the bullet. Another issue was from using a RN Seating Stem (all I had) with Hornady XTP HP bullets, the bullet would actually Stall going into the case any further and the remaining stroke of the press closed up the hollow point in the bullet by a noticeable amount.

I'm just wondering if you are using a combined Seat/Crimp if you aren't actually "breaking" the plating by doing this. BTW, I learned early on that trying to combine seat and crimp in 357 Magnum led to a lot of buckled cases so any revolver caliber I load today is always seated and crimped in separate operations.
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Old 06-20-2017, 07:33 AM
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Scooter, that's god thought. I'm actually seating and crimping on separate stages. Nonetheless, I should pull a couple and see what they look like. I've know xtreme plating be tough stuff in the past.
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Old 06-20-2017, 07:35 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BLUEDOT37 View Post
Actually I had (re)checked them for a different reason last week & they (the latest lot received) mic'd right at my originally documented measurement for this bullet, .4296", so that's okay.

I've shot a lot of these, without issues, so I'm really surprised at this. Will update later.

.
Once I replace the battery in my digital caliper, I'll double check. I agree with you that I think something has changed. Thank you for sharing your finding.
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Old 06-24-2017, 12:51 AM
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The short story. Made it to the range yesterday & I got some leading again. The very light taper crimp didn't change the problem. Seems to be velocity related, but something doesn't add up.

The long story...

First off, I checked & these bullets were purchased over a year ago so they are not recent purchases/production inventory.

I retested Xtreme's "standard plated" 44 Mag 240gr P-RNFP (.4296") bullets (rated to 1200fps) using CFE-P in Remington 44 Mag cases & CCI-300 primers with a very light taper crimp. I verified the crimp, for possible plating damage, by pulling one before I started & it made only a faint mark in the middle of the cannelure's serrations. I first started using this bullet back in early 2015.

I first tried this combination back in Aug-2015 with 10.2 & 11.0gr CFE-P with no problems noted in my log book. A few weeks ago I expanded the range of the CFE-P to 10.0, 10.5, 11.0, 11.5, & 12.0grs to try in my new snubby M69. I loaded (20) of each weight & took my 629-6 Classic 5" along for comparison.

I based the corresponding MVs for each charge on this article, "Handloading the New S&W M69 L-Frame 44 Magnum" - Handloader #293, which listed the combination of CFE-P & Speer's 240gr DeepCurl (formerly Gold Dot Handgun Hunting, an electrochemically plated/bonded bullet).

From a 4-1/4" M69, Brian Pearce's article chrono'd:

CFE-P
10.0gr = 982 fps
11.0gr = 1037 fps &
12.0gr = 1079 fps

Hodgdon Online Manual lists the following using a 8.275" bbl:

Berry's 220gr P-FP, 10.9gr/CFE-P = 1197mv @ 23.3K psi
Nosler 240gr JHP, 12.0gr/CFE-P = 1304mv @ 35K psi

If you adjust Hodgdon's 8" bbl. MV down, to approximate a 4" bbl. MV by subtracting 50fps per inch velocity lost, ~200fps, you get pretty close numbers.

I fired (10) of each powder weight in the M629, then the M69. I rated each load for leading using "0" - "5" to denote it's severity; 0= no leading, 1= slight trace, 2= trace, etc, & 5= very heavy. After each batch of (10) rounds was fired I checked the muzzle & rifling for leading & cleaned/removed any leading before firing the next batch.

10.0gr = no leading visible in either revolver

10.5gr = started to see some lead splatter on the camfered crown of both revolvers. Slight trace in rifling in 629; none in the 69. This load was accurate though.

11.0gr = some lead splatter on the crown of both revolvers. Slight trace in rifling in 629; none in the 69. This load was accurate though too.

11.5gr = lead splatter on the crown of both revolvers. Trace in rifling in 629; none in the 69

12.0gr = lead splatter on the crown of both revolvers. Trace in rifling in 629; none in the 69

Again, this time, the 629 had more leading in the rifling. At it's worst, a fairly uniform thin film on the last couple inches of the grooves & lands. The 69 essentially had none, only a faint glitter of lead in the corner of the grooves, nothing I would deem a problem, though continued shooting, without cleaning might have gotten worse. The 629 definitely would have gotten worse. In fact accuracy declined last time before I noticed the leading problem.

It's worth noting that the 69's EDM/ECM rifling is more sharply defined (squared) than the 629's which has softer, more rounded, looking rifling.

I also shot (20) rounds, in the 629, loaded with 10.5gr/LongShot, ~1045fps, & it had slight traces of leading showing too. Same bullets but were loaded over a year ago when I worked up that load.

Assuming "Handloader's" chrono readings are correct, I still don't understand why I'm seeing this problem since the bullets are rated to 1200fps. I've never had this with any of the other (4) calibers I use Xtreme's bullets in & several are loaded to similar speeds.

I'm guessing that the shorter barrel length of the 69 was the reason it had minimal leading in the rifling while the longer barrel of the 629 made more velocity & it's leading was in the last couple inches of the barrel? Maybe the rifling had a bearing on it too?

I still have some old Unique & Bluedot loads on-hand that I can try again too but it looks like I'll need to lower the velocity on future loads to avoid this issue. Odd.

Lastly, isn't it strange Xtreme makes heavy plated bullets, rated to 1500fps, for 9mm, 40S&W, 38/357, & 45ACP, but not in .44 caliber?

.
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Old 06-24-2017, 09:29 AM
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I have been recently setting my Xtreme and Berry's DEWC's flush and rolling the case mouth onto the radiused shoulder of the bullet. This eliminates the risk of breaking the plating. For me they have shot extremely well in my 6" 686 with HP38, Bullseye and Titegroup powders.

Just a thought to try perhaps to eliminate the variable on the crimp onto the plating, the Xtreme does have the knurled crimp ring where as the Berrys' is smooth plating with no specified crimp area.
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Old 06-24-2017, 11:47 AM
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BLUEDOT, any chance you measure the groove diamter of the two guns via slugging the bores? I suspect it's just a matter of the round shouldered ECM not holding onto the slug as well as the more crisp ECM rifling in the 69. Nonetheless, it would be interesting to compare groove diamters if possible.
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Old 06-25-2017, 03:12 AM
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...any chance you measure the groove diamter of the two guns via slugging the bores?
I use pin gages, a telescoping gage & a micrometer.

.

They're pretty close, as best as I can tell:

Mdl.......Bore.......Groove...Throats
69....... .4168"... .4296"... .4292"
629..... .4168"... .4292"... .4291"

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Old 06-25-2017, 09:23 AM
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I use pin gages, a telescoping gage & a micrometer.

.

They're pretty close, as best as I can tell:

Mdl.......Bore.......Groove...Throats
69....... .4168"... .4296"... .4292"
629..... .4168"... .4292"... .4291"

.
Awesome! The problem has to be related the the contour of the groove's shoulder. The rounded shoulder just cannot hold onto an accelerating bullet of a certain weight past a certain velocity. I have not had your problem in .44 with my 629-6, but I have been using their 200gr slugs which obviously have less rotational inertia than 240's. I have xtreme 240's, and plan to see what happens with loads that should be about 1100fps in the 5" 629-6. At this point I expect to see what you have described.
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Old 06-25-2017, 10:02 AM
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My 629 is a -5. Would it have ECM rifling? Comparing it and my 69, the 69 looks like it has more pronounced lands, especially at the crown where it looks like a star. Something changed between the two. Not surprised.
I'll tell you neither one suffers for accuracy.
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Old 06-25-2017, 09:42 PM
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I have been recently setting my Xtreme and Berry's DEWC's flush and rolling the case mouth onto the radiused shoulder of the bullet.
Karl
I do not recall ever seeing a wadcutter bullet sold in a commercial loading that was not roll crimped, probably 95 percent of the time over the end/shoulder and a few times into a crimp groove.
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Old 06-26-2017, 03:02 AM
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My 629 is a -5. Would it have ECM rifling? Comparing it and my 69, the 69 looks like it has more pronounced lands, especially at the crown where it looks like a star. Something changed between the two.
Yes, the 629 will have ECM/EDM rifling too.

Having chamfered almost all of my S&W revolvers now you can better see the outline of the rifling, like you said.

I didn't get a straight-on photo of my M69 but it has more pronounced lands too. I believe that while the one-piece & two-piece barrels have the same ECM/EDM rifling I think the operation must be done differently or by a different machine. The two-piece forcing cones are invariably done better too.

.

69 Combat Magnum - (chamfered muzzle)


.

629-6 Classic - (chamfered muzzle)


.

629-6 Classic - (chamfered muzzle)


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Old 06-26-2017, 03:06 AM
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SLT223: Have you been able to figure out anything on your leading issue?

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Old 06-26-2017, 06:25 AM
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There's another thread about crimp and velocity. Most are saying more crimp doesn't change powder burn or velocity. I thought more crimp would delay (how ever slight) the bullet exiting the case promoting powder burn. When doing magnum loads with 2400 powder I noticed much less powder residue after firing coated SWC's with a good roll crimp than the identical load but with plated RNFP (Xtreme) and a light roll crimp.
Anyway, as my stash of Xtreme bullets for revolvers dwindles down I'll most likely order coated to replace them. I find them a bit "less fussy" to load.
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Old 06-26-2017, 08:23 AM
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SLT223: Have you been able to figure out anything on your leading issue?

.
Not yet. I won't have a chance to shoot until next weekend. I think the plan is to load some sub and supersonic 200's and 240's and see what happens in 629-6. I'll bring along 629-1 w/broach cut for comparison.

It's rather intereting to see your 69 snub clearly has sharper grooves than the the 629-6. I wonder if that's deliberate so the barrel torquing tool can squarely contact the rifling for tightening the barrel to the frame?
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Old 06-27-2017, 12:28 AM
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I'll bring along 629-1 w/broach cut for comparison.

It's rather intereting to see your 69 snub clearly has sharper grooves than the the 629-6. I wonder if that's deliberate so the barrel torquing tool can squarely contact the rifling for tightening the barrel to the frame?
I guess I'll temporarily pull my 29-2 out of retirement to see how they do in it too. It's bore & groove (broached) dimensions are almost identical to the M69 but of course it has those .432" throats, typical for that era.

That's an interesting possibility.

. . .

I just loaded up some more test loads using Power Pistol to see where they start leading.

The last (1000) Xtreme 240gr bullets I bought got mixed in with the earlier purchase so they're no way to tell if the plating thickness changed.

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Old 07-18-2017, 02:46 AM
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Update to last post:

Re-tested loads using P-P =9.0 @ 987fps, & 9.5gr @ 1037, w/Xtreme 240gr P-RNFP bullet in 629 & 29-2.

Shot (10) rounds w/9.0gr in the 629 & no leading.

Shot (10) rounds w/9.5gr in 629 & it started leading. Shot the remaining (10) in the M29-2 & no leading.

Shot (10) rounds each w/16.0gr, 16.5gr & 17.0gr/2400 in 629 & no leading.

Shot the remaining (10) rounds with P-P/9.0gr in the 629, since it did not lead the first time, but this time it did lead !!

The only thing I can conclude is one of the last two boxes of (500) bullets had some bad quality plating on them. But since all the bullets got mixed together, after an initial inspection, I have no idea which one, or how many are the problem, so I'll have to treat them all as suspect now & load them down.

I ordered, & received, (100) Rainier 240gr P-FN & (100) Rainier 240gr P-HP bullets, rated to 1500fps. I loaded the P-FN with up to a max. of 10.5gr/P-P @ 1145fps, & 12.0gr/CFE-P @ 1079fps. Shot all (100) of the Rainier P-FN in the 629 & absolutely no leading at all, which should have been the same results I got from the Xtremes.

Don't ya' love it when you receive inconsistent quality.

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