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Old 06-16-2017, 04:20 PM
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Default Leading with xtreme plated 148 DEWC

Gun is a 620. Load xtreme 148 over 3gr Tight Group. All was fine until the round rount got north of 200. The gun was rather hot and I started noticing ouffs of smoke...like the kind you get with lead...I used taper crimp inly with these.

Here's what the recessed crown looked like after shooting:





Yes, that is lead.

Here's what a 620 crown looks like clean for comparison:



How did I manage this?

Last edited by SLT223; 06-18-2017 at 04:34 PM.
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Old 06-16-2017, 05:35 PM
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For one, Titegroup burns extremely hot, and I would not use it with lead myself.
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Old 06-16-2017, 06:13 PM
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I've shot lots of Xtreme plated bullets out of revolvers and semi-autos and the only time I've had leading problems I found I was cutting or scrapping the plating off. Maybe your taper crimp is cutting through. Pull a bullet and see what it looks like. Their SWC or RNFP bullet has no crimp band and I've got to be careful not to roll crimp right through the plating.
I'm holding off ordering more of their plated revolver bullets. Without the crimp band and a good roll crimp my stouter mag loads seem to be dirtier than when I use a coated SWC with a good roll crimp. I think I'm getting better powder burn with that roll crimp.
Love their plated semi-auto bullets.
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Old 06-16-2017, 06:27 PM
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The xtreme 148 grain DEWC's I looked at were swaged lead then copper plated. That means it is a soft core with a thin plating.
The 3.0 grains of Titegroup (the Hodgdon powder right) should not be a problem. It sounds spot on for that bullet and target loads.
I honestly believe it's the barrel rifling. The new ECM process S&W uses can leave a bit rough and they lead until enough jacketed bullets are fired or unless they are fire lapped or hand lapped smooth.
I shoot this load in an old model 64 (made in 1973) the barrel is very smooth from years of shooting and this load with fairly soft cast lead WC's shows not one speck of leading.
I was going to buy a new model 66 when they came out but the fellow doing the review experienced the same lead build up with cast bullets . He scoped it carefully and concluded the EDM process that makes the lands and grooves were the problem , since it wasn't his gun he didn't try lapping it . It did OK with all jacketed bullets, he didn't test plated but plated are not that hard. I didn't buy the new model 66 because all I shoot is cast lead.
Try shooting a bunch of jacketed and maybe do a fire lapping .
Your load doesn't lead like that in my 1973 model 64 , something's else is going on. Good luck .
Gary

Last edited by gwpercle; 06-18-2017 at 04:52 PM.
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Old 06-16-2017, 06:33 PM
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Gw, you just reminded me I got 158 hardcast coated to jump the EDM "grooves" in this gun two years ago. I think the plating is getting banged up when the EDM rifling fails to fully grab the slug.

Edit:
This gun is a tack driver with all other xtreme bullets. It's seen over 10k Xtreme flat point and SWC's. Those are not soft lead, and have caused nothing but accuracy.

Last edited by SLT223; 06-16-2017 at 06:50 PM.
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Old 06-16-2017, 06:51 PM
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You have a hot burning powder with a bullet that is outrunning the lube.
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Old 06-16-2017, 08:10 PM
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You have a hot burning powder with a bullet that is outrunning the lube.
Negative Ghostrider. The bullet is plated.
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Old 06-16-2017, 09:02 PM
Qc Pistolero Qc Pistolero is offline
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That crown looks very deep.As soon as the bullet's base gets in it,the gasses are blowing by and cause the leading.

I'd try regular lubed bullets with 2.8 Titegroup and if it doesn't improve,I'd probably call it a ''jacketed bullet barrel''.
Qc
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Old 06-16-2017, 09:31 PM
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I've used Titegroup for over 15 years now and have never had Leading like that. I get a very slight amount in the Forcing Cone and a little in the ends of the Cylinder's Charge Holes but never get any at the tip of the barrel.

I load mild loads for target shooting and use 2.7 grains of the Titegroup under 148 grain lead WC's. I use 3.2 grains with 158 grain RNL. Never a problem like your picture shows.

Last edited by chief38; 06-16-2017 at 09:32 PM.
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Old 06-18-2017, 02:28 PM
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Confirmed: It's the ECM rifling. This afternoon my 66-1 launched them sans issue.
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Old 06-18-2017, 02:38 PM
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So it can't possibly be the recessed crown because the 66 has one, too?

Maybe, "it's the gun."
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Old 06-18-2017, 03:08 PM
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Originally Posted by mike campbell View Post
So it can't possibly be the recessed crown because the 66 has one, too?

Maybe, "it's the gun."
Of course it's the gun. The rifling is part of the gun isn't it?

We are talking about plated bullets. You have to break the copper plating before you can have a leading issue.

ECM rifling is almost as smooth shouldered as polygnal. It's no wonder to me the gun can't shoot lead or swaged plated worth a poop.

I will reiterate, the gun exhibits no issues and is a tack driver with all other xtreme plated bullets.

Last edited by SLT223; 06-18-2017 at 04:51 PM.
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Old 06-18-2017, 03:25 PM
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This is just one of the many reason I'll never buy Titegroup again.
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Old 06-18-2017, 03:42 PM
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This is just one of the many reason I'll never buy Titegroup again.
Again bullets are plated...no exposed lead....unless the plating is broken.

My 66-1 shot these rounds perfectly.
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Old 06-18-2017, 04:56 PM
Eddietruett Eddietruett is offline
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Been playing around with some Titegroup to see if I could find a better load than Bullseye. Just ran some Berrys and Xtreme plated DEWC, HBWC and SWC up to 3.5 gr. Also tried some Missouri Coated DEWC as well. Very light crimp from my Lee Factory Crimp Die. Shot a total of around 600 bullets between 2 guns. Absolutely no leading in my 6" mod 686 or 3" mod 66. Both barrels look like they've been shot with jacketed bullets. I'm guessing too tight of a crimp which did cause me a few minor issues when I went from lead to plated. Didn't like the Titegroup as well as I do Bullseye but it didn't perform bad.
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Old 06-18-2017, 05:09 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SLT223 View Post
Confirmed: It's the ECM rifling. This afternoon my 66-1 launched them sans issue.
I was confused about the term EDM and ECM , the new method S&W uses to rifle it's barrel.
I had read in a review it was EDM- Electrical Discharge Machining...which sounded right.
But I kept seeing references to a ECM process - Electro Chemical Machining ! So what is it EDM - ECM, Po-tay-toe , po-tot-toe ?
Turns out S&W uses the ECM process to rifle barrels !
I read the explanation of how both processes work and don't understand any of it....lets just say it ain't how they did it back when S&W guns were made ....lets just say the way I like them ! ECM may be a fast and profital way to make guns but the shooting results of lead in a new production model 66 stopped me from buying it. My old model 64 will do me just fine. Sometimes new isn't better.
Gary
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Old 06-18-2017, 05:30 PM
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Originally Posted by gwpercle View Post
I was confused about the term EDM and ECM , the new method S&W uses to rifle it's barrel.
I had read in a review it was EDM- Electrical Discharge Machining...which sounded right.
But I kept seeing references to a ECM process - Electro Chemical Machining ! So what is it EDM - ECM, Po-tay-toe , po-tot-toe ?
Turns out S&W uses the ECM process to rifle barrels !
I read the explanation of how both processes work and don't understand any of it....lets just say it ain't how they did it back when S&W guns were made ....lets just say the way I like them ! ECM may be a fast and profital way to make guns but the shooting results of lead in a new production model 66 stopped me from buying it. My old model 64 will do me just fine. Sometimes new isn't better.
Gary
I agree! It's definitely not a perfect process either. I picked up a new 3-5-7 Talo 3 inch at an LGS, and there was almost no discernible rifling whatsoever. I wonder how that one could even hold onto an FMJ at 1000fps +?
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Old 06-18-2017, 06:51 PM
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Interesting. I understand the ECM process has been used at least 10 years now. I have 3 S&W revolvers that fall into that time frame. My 686 (2013) and 627 (2016) have both run many hard cast lead bullets without excessive leading. As mentioned when I did have a leading problem it was with Xtreme SWC's and RNFP's and I was roll crimping through the cannelure band. SLT223 - You mention where you've not had this problem with any other Xtreme bullet. On their web site I'm not finding where they say it's made any different from the others. Did I miss that?
My new 69 has so far seen nothing but Xtreme 240gr. RNFP's and again, no signs of leading. Also, the rifling in all 3 are not rough at all. Comparing them to an older 629 the only difference I can notice is the edges of the lands might not be as sharp.
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Old 06-18-2017, 07:16 PM
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Interesting. I understand the ECM process has been used at least 10 years now. I have 3 S&W revolvers that fall into that time frame. My 686 (2013) and 627 (2016) have both run many hard cast lead bullets without excessive leading. As mentioned when I did have a leading problem it was with Xtreme SWC's and RNFP's and I was roll crimping through the cannelure band. SLT223 - You mention where you've not had this problem with any other Xtreme bullet. On their web site I'm not finding where they say it's made any different from the others. Did I miss that?
My new 69 has so far seen nothing but Xtreme 240gr. RNFP's and again, no signs of leading. Also, the rifling in all 3 are not rough at all. Comparing them to an older 629 the only difference I can notice is the edges of the lands might not be as sharp.
I see where you are reading that. I was getting it from Gw in post #5. Made sense to me since I've launched their SWC's and FP's at magnum velocity with great success. Maybe Gw can clarify. I'll defer to him
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Old 06-19-2017, 03:19 AM
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Default Leading using Xtreme's 44 bullets

Just just ran across a similar situation.

I've been using Xtreme's bullets for a long time without issue in my S&W's with EDM/ECM rifling... until a few weeks ago when I loaded up some work-up loads using Xtreme's 240gr RNFP for my new M69.

All taper crimped. I've loaded many hundreds of these & with powder charges that I have tested the most accurate. All in the 1000-1100 fps range.

I started noticing lead deposits on the chamfered muzzle of the new M69, & my 629-5 I was shooting as a comparison. The 629 had rifle leading the last ~2" of the barrel. The M69 had it just the last <1". Both had it splattered on the muzzle too. The 629 was the worst.

I just reloaded (100) more work-up loads & gave them extra light taper crimps. I've never had this with any Xtreme bullets before. I've always used a moderate taper crimp. If they still have the same trouble I have to assume something changed with how they're making the bullets? Don't know, this is strange.

I'm going to the range this week to try them.

.
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Old 06-19-2017, 09:21 AM
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Originally Posted by BLUEDOT37 View Post
Just just ran across a similar situation.

I've been using Xtreme's bullets for a long time without issue in my S&W's with EDM/ECM rifling... until a few weeks ago when I loaded up some work-up loads using Xtreme's 240gr RNFP for my new M69.

All taper crimped. I've loaded many hundreds of these & with powder charges that I have tested the most accurate. All in the 1000-1100 fps range.

I started noticing lead deposits on the chamfered muzzle of the new M69, & my 629-5 I was shooting as a comparison. The 629 had rifle leading the last ~2" of the barrel. The M69 had it just the last <1". Both had it splattered on the muzzle too. The 629 was the worst.

I just reloaded (100) more work-up loads & gave them extra light taper crimps. I've never had this with any Xtreme bullets before. I've always used a moderate taper crimp. If they still have the same trouble I have to assume something changed with how they're making the bullets? Don't know, this is strange.

I'm going to the range this week to try them.

.
I think it might time for us to start mic'ing the bullets. If they worked fine before and not now, maybe the diameters are a bit on the skinny side as of late? If not that l, maybe the plating chnaged? I have plenty of their .429's and .357's of current production and older. Ill bust out the calipers this evening.
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Old 06-19-2017, 09:50 AM
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Do all of these guns have counterbored muzzles ? Is this some new design feature? My last new S&W was my 22-5 about 6 - 7 years ago, and its muzzle doesn't look like that.

Larry
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Old 06-19-2017, 10:22 AM
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Do all of these guns have counterbored muzzles ? Is this some new design feature? My last new S&W was my 22-5 about 6 - 7 years ago, and its muzzle doesn't look like that.

Larry
Larry what you are looking at in this thread is the old two piece barrel set up found on the 620, alloy 520, 619, and the lat model 64's. That being said I dont think the muzzle design is a contributing factor here.

Last edited by SLT223; 06-19-2017 at 10:51 AM.
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Old 06-20-2017, 12:54 AM
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I think it might time for us to start mic'ing the bullets.
If not that l, maybe the plating chnaged?
Actually I had (re)checked them for a different reason last week & they (the latest lot received) mic'd right at my originally documented measurement for this bullet, .4296", so that's okay.

I've shot a lot of these, without issues, so I'm really surprised at this. Will update later.

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Old 06-20-2017, 07:28 AM
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SLT223, a question for you. Are you combining Seating and Crimping into one operation or doing these steps separately. I ask because I have had so many issues trying to combine seating and crimping that I won't every try using a combined setup again. One issue I encountered when trying to Seat/Crimp 45 ACP JACKETED bullets was that as the Taper Crimp started to engage the rim would "bite" into the jacket on the bullet and shave a ring of copper from the jacket. Sometimes that shave ring could actually be grabbed with tweezers and stripped from the bullet. Another issue was from using a RN Seating Stem (all I had) with Hornady XTP HP bullets, the bullet would actually Stall going into the case any further and the remaining stroke of the press closed up the hollow point in the bullet by a noticeable amount.

I'm just wondering if you are using a combined Seat/Crimp if you aren't actually "breaking" the plating by doing this. BTW, I learned early on that trying to combine seat and crimp in 357 Magnum led to a lot of buckled cases so any revolver caliber I load today is always seated and crimped in separate operations.
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Old 06-20-2017, 07:33 AM
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Scooter, that's god thought. I'm actually seating and crimping on separate stages. Nonetheless, I should pull a couple and see what they look like. I've know xtreme plating be tough stuff in the past.
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Old 06-20-2017, 07:35 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BLUEDOT37 View Post
Actually I had (re)checked them for a different reason last week & they (the latest lot received) mic'd right at my originally documented measurement for this bullet, .4296", so that's okay.

I've shot a lot of these, without issues, so I'm really surprised at this. Will update later.

.
Once I replace the battery in my digital caliper, I'll double check. I agree with you that I think something has changed. Thank you for sharing your finding.
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