Smith & Wesson Forum

Go Back   Smith & Wesson Forum > Ammunition-Gunsmithing > Reloading
o

Notices

Reloading All Reloading Topics Go Here


Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old 06-17-2017, 07:24 AM
kbm6893 kbm6893 is offline
SWCA Member
No Room for Error in .380 No Room for Error in .380  
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Pennsylvania
Posts: 6,625
Likes: 636
Liked 6,861 Times in 2,541 Posts
Default No Room for Error in .380

I load 9MM and .38 now. I weigh every single charge and will
Continue to do that. I want to start loading .380. I'm going to be using HP38 powder and a 100 grain RNFP bullet from Xtreme Bullets. The data from the Hodgon website shows a minimum load of 2.9 and a maximum load of 3.1. Not much room for error. I usually load middle of the road, which would be 3.0 grains, but that's only .1 grains away from maximum.

Also, the load on their web site is for a FMJ bullet. The extreme bullet is a lead bullet copper plated, so I should be using lead bullet data. I have other manuals but just don't have them
Next to me as I type this. Any other recommendations would be appreciated.

Last edited by kbm6893; 06-17-2017 at 07:28 AM.
Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old 06-17-2017, 07:38 AM
Granddad's Avatar
Granddad Granddad is offline
Member
No Room for Error in .380 No Room for Error in .380 No Room for Error in .380 No Room for Error in .380 No Room for Error in .380  
Join Date: Aug 2012
Location: FL W Coast
Posts: 322
Likes: 48
Liked 82 Times in 56 Posts
Default

I've used the same powder and bullet. I settled on a 3.0 gr charge with an OAL of 0.975". Shot out of an LCP, I had no function issues, accuracy was good, and no signs of overpressure.
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old 06-17-2017, 08:24 AM
OKFC05 OKFC05 is offline
Member
No Room for Error in .380 No Room for Error in .380  
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Oklahoma
Posts: 8,158
Likes: 3,605
Liked 5,199 Times in 2,172 Posts
Default

I have an old Hornady manual that goes up a half grain more than that, which I have shot in a Sig 230. Your 3.0gr load is moderate.
__________________
Science plus Art
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old 06-17-2017, 08:33 AM
rockquarry rockquarry is online now
Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Posts: 7,552
Likes: 4
Liked 8,885 Times in 4,121 Posts
Default

Lyman has a cast bullet only manual and their regular manual that has both jacketed and cast bullet data. That might be a good place to start or at least use for comparison and reference.
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old 06-17-2017, 08:43 AM
Wee Hooker Wee Hooker is offline
Member
No Room for Error in .380 No Room for Error in .380 No Room for Error in .380 No Room for Error in .380 No Room for Error in .380  
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: New England, USA
Posts: 4,468
Likes: 3,068
Liked 4,294 Times in 1,610 Posts
Default

Your using FMJ data for a plated bullet so you have a little margin built in.
( My learned rule of thumb is to use mid /upper range load data for cast bullets when using plated.)
That said, a narrow gap in load window my indicate your powder choice may not be the best for this application. ( Especially true with such a small amount of powder.)
Personally, after running tests with several powders I found Unique to produce the best accuracy and least recoil in my 38 loads. It also has a larger range of acceptable loads.
hth
__________________
Dave
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old 06-17-2017, 10:09 AM
rockquarry rockquarry is online now
Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Posts: 7,552
Likes: 4
Liked 8,885 Times in 4,121 Posts
Default

I've loaded cast bullets only for several .380s. Bullets have ranged in weight from a 93 grain RCBS round nose to a Lyman 104 grain flat nose to a SAECO 122 grain flat nose, all cast from wheelweight alloy and sized to .356". Powders included 231, Unique, Blue Dot, Herco, and Bullseye. Best (most accurate) loads with all bullet weights used 231 powder.
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old 06-17-2017, 10:40 AM
yep380 yep380 is offline
Member
No Room for Error in .380 No Room for Error in .380 No Room for Error in .380 No Room for Error in .380 No Room for Error in .380  
Join Date: Mar 2014
Posts: 481
Likes: 593
Liked 485 Times in 223 Posts
Default

FWIW, I've loaded berry's and xtreme plated 380 bullets with Titegroup. There wasn't a lot of room for error there either. I've found that Titegroup is my most consistent powder for metering.

Just throwing out a recommendation for titegroup if you have the opportunity to pick some up or have some on hand; it's cheap, it works well and it meters well.
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old 06-17-2017, 11:32 AM
kbm6893 kbm6893 is offline
SWCA Member
No Room for Error in .380 No Room for Error in .380  
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Pennsylvania
Posts: 6,625
Likes: 636
Liked 6,861 Times in 2,541 Posts
Default

I'm not worried about the weights. I zero the scale and check with check weights before every session. I weigh every charge. HP38 drops perfectly every time and I'd rather stick with it since I also use it for .38 and 9MM.

I just want to be sure that the data on Hodgson's website with the fmj bullet is ok for the copper plated lead bullet from Xtreme bullets.
Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old 06-17-2017, 12:02 PM
Nevada Ed's Avatar
Nevada Ed Nevada Ed is offline
US Veteran
No Room for Error in .380 No Room for Error in .380 No Room for Error in .380 No Room for Error in .380 No Room for Error in .380  
Join Date: Nov 2012
Location: Reno Nv
Posts: 13,376
Likes: 3,183
Liked 12,712 Times in 5,669 Posts
Default

I stopped loading with the very small 9mm case.
I just could not imagine trying to load a tiny little 380 auto....

As far as the Xtreme data........
they just want to try to keep that bullet under 1200fps.

I had their 1200 rated bullet up to 1350fps in a 5" 9mm and there
were no copper "Flakes" on the target......
I just did not have a heavy coated bullet at the time of the test.

Have fun with that 380.
Reply With Quote
  #10  
Old 06-17-2017, 12:39 PM
m657's Avatar
m657 m657 is offline
Member
No Room for Error in .380 No Room for Error in .380 No Room for Error in .380 No Room for Error in .380 No Room for Error in .380  
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: sunny Orygun
Posts: 2,910
Likes: 392
Liked 307 Times in 195 Posts
Default

I too dislike loading 380 cases and avoid such as much as possible. Still, it seems like every decade or so I've found reason to load up another supply as I like shooting the round.

Since my notes are currently unavailable I can only relate from memory a few observations:

somehow I've developed preference for 95 RNL and 100 plated Berrys;

found in my little clutch of 9mmKurtz, that the upper margin of the load tables gives me far less issue with FTE than even cleaving the difference in a few tenths of grain, so I load my powder choice at the published maximum part of the chart;

one of my little darlins' actually gave me a faster stage time in speed steel than the standard pistols I had been using;

as far as I'm concerned, it really isn't worth the effort to pick up those tiny cases after a few reloads;

as I practice for better POI with my 9KurtzOblasters, my POI group improves with my 9x19 loads---go figure;
__________________
Dum vivimus Vivamas
Reply With Quote
  #11  
Old 06-17-2017, 12:43 PM
mikld's Avatar
mikld mikld is online now
Member
No Room for Error in .380 No Room for Error in .380 No Room for Error in .380 No Room for Error in .380 No Room for Error in .380  
Join Date: May 2012
Location: S. Orygun
Posts: 2,461
Likes: 1,962
Liked 1,827 Times in 987 Posts
Default

FWIW, I have a couple thoughts. First, what's wrong with the starting load? Perhaps they are called "starting loads" for a reason. And second, I too don't care for the small "windows" of min-max for some powders and most of the time I'll seek a powder that has more "wiggle room". There is no down side to starting low and even keeping the loads low (the 380 won't benefit for an increase of 100 fps and it's not a "target round" so accuracy isn't an issue). For safety's sake I'd just load for function and keep loads on the low side...
Reply With Quote
The Following User Likes This Post:
  #12  
Old 06-17-2017, 12:49 PM
rwsmith's Avatar
rwsmith rwsmith is offline
Member
No Room for Error in .380 No Room for Error in .380 No Room for Error in .380 No Room for Error in .380 No Room for Error in .380  
Join Date: Dec 2012
Location: (outside) Charleston, SC
Posts: 30,907
Likes: 41,495
Liked 29,150 Times in 13,779 Posts
Default With the velocities that you get.....

Quote:
Originally Posted by Granddad View Post
I've used the same powder and bullet. I settled on a 3.0 gr charge with an OAL of 0.975". Shot out of an LCP, I had no function issues, accuracy was good, and no signs of overpressure.
With the velocities that you will get in a short .380 you won't have to worry about the limits of plated bullets.

Also, Xtreme bullets are very high quality and the plating is pretty darn tough.
__________________
"He was kinda funny lookin'"
Reply With Quote
  #13  
Old 06-17-2017, 01:03 PM
H Richard's Avatar
H Richard H Richard is offline
US Veteran
No Room for Error in .380 No Room for Error in .380 No Room for Error in .380 No Room for Error in .380 No Room for Error in .380  
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: West Central IL
Posts: 22,758
Likes: 18,437
Liked 22,313 Times in 8,245 Posts
Default

HP38 and 231 are the same powder. I use 231, 2.7 gr. and a 95 gr JRN. It works well. I also don't like reloading the tiny cases, but do load on a single stage and weigh every 5-10 loads after establishing the setting on my RCBS measure. Always check your OAL for the actual bullet you are loading.
__________________
H Richard
SWCA1967 SWHF244
Reply With Quote
The Following User Likes This Post:
  #14  
Old 06-17-2017, 04:26 PM
STORMINORMAN STORMINORMAN is offline
Member
No Room for Error in .380 No Room for Error in .380 No Room for Error in .380 No Room for Error in .380 No Room for Error in .380  
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: Pacific NW
Posts: 2,107
Likes: 1,154
Liked 1,383 Times in 835 Posts
Default

kbm6893: Hodgdons also shows 2.7gr for this bullet and 700-X. <-(PERIOD) That's NO CHOICE. Older IMR data for this powder goes much higher.

The answer to your specific question as to 3.0 of W231 and a plated 100gr Xtreme is that it will be fine if it also reliably cycles your pistol. I've loaded thousands of 100gr Xtremes and Berrys with that exact load and COL. Shoots great in my Kahr, an older AMT Backup, my friends Colt Mustang 380, a couple different LCPs as well.

Cheers!

P.S. I don't necessarily agree with milkd that the 380ACP is somehow "not a TARGET ROUND" or that "accuracy isn't important", either. Exactly what other calibers fit this classification: maybe 22lr (not powerfull enough?), how's about 500 S&W Magnum (too powerful?)...? If I'm shooting at a target at the range or carrying my Kahr I want every round to be as accurate and reliable as possible. That goes for EVERY caliber I own.
Reply With Quote
The Following User Likes This Post:
  #15  
Old 06-17-2017, 05:40 PM
m657's Avatar
m657 m657 is offline
Member
No Room for Error in .380 No Room for Error in .380 No Room for Error in .380 No Room for Error in .380 No Room for Error in .380  
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: sunny Orygun
Posts: 2,910
Likes: 392
Liked 307 Times in 195 Posts
Default

whenever I actually get around to 'bench rest-testing' for group size, my little gaggle of 380s are as accurate as any pug-nosed pistol I have.

I'd assume the slide velocity is especially challenged by the laws of physics; while I know of Mustang Colts that will cycle a lower-end round, direct experimentation with the longer 'Colt.gov 380' proved more sensitive to that extra couple 1/10 g of several powders. Kicking the load up even those .1-.2g made this little darlin' virtually 100% reliable.
__________________
Dum vivimus Vivamas
Reply With Quote
  #16  
Old 06-17-2017, 07:35 PM
muddocktor's Avatar
muddocktor muddocktor is offline
Member
No Room for Error in .380 No Room for Error in .380 No Room for Error in .380 No Room for Error in .380 No Room for Error in .380  
Join Date: Oct 2014
Location: South Louisiana
Posts: 5,346
Likes: 11,606
Liked 9,018 Times in 3,192 Posts
Default

If you have some Accurate #2, I've found it to work very well in 380 Auto. And looking at the downloadable Accurate data, for the 100 grain bullets it's a bit more forgiving than 231/HP38. They show 2.7-3.2 grains for Rainier 100 grain RN plated and 2.8-3.2 for the Berry's 100 grain RNHB plated bullets. Of those 2, the Rainier would be closest to your Extreme bullets I would think.

If you don't have any Accurate #2, you might want to try it out. It meters great (even better than 231) and gives good results. I've been using it since the 90's in 9MM for plinking/target loads and tried it out in the 380 Auto a couple of years ago and it worked well for me there too.
Reply With Quote
  #17  
Old 06-20-2017, 12:17 PM
mikld's Avatar
mikld mikld is online now
Member
No Room for Error in .380 No Room for Error in .380 No Room for Error in .380 No Room for Error in .380 No Room for Error in .380  
Join Date: May 2012
Location: S. Orygun
Posts: 2,461
Likes: 1,962
Liked 1,827 Times in 987 Posts
Default

Jes thinking; I haven't seen a 380 pistol that lends itself to target shooting as all the ones I've seen are less than a hand full and most fit in a pocket and few, have barrels longer than 3". I can't remember any factory ammo with other than round nose bullets, mostly FMJ. So this is why I stated it's not a "target round". I too reload every round as it I were going to shoot it in world class competition but I don't expect much accuracy from some rounds/guns and 380 is one. I can keep all my shots in a 3"-4" group at 25' with my 380 which ain't considered "target accuracy"...

Last edited by mikld; 06-20-2017 at 12:18 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #18  
Old 06-20-2017, 04:02 PM
TomkinsSP's Avatar
TomkinsSP TomkinsSP is offline
Member
No Room for Error in .380 No Room for Error in .380 No Room for Error in .380 No Room for Error in .380 No Room for Error in .380  
Join Date: May 2017
Location: E of America's Great Lake
Posts: 2,774
Likes: 1,416
Liked 4,377 Times in 1,654 Posts
Default

There are big .380s. Star and Llama made 'em for places you can't legally own service caliber weapons. BDAs aren't tiny. Although small, ponys, micros and 238s can deliver some accuracy at short range.
__________________
Certified Curmudgeon
Reply With Quote
  #19  
Old 06-20-2017, 05:54 PM
ameridaddy ameridaddy is offline
US Veteran
No Room for Error in .380 No Room for Error in .380 No Room for Error in .380 No Room for Error in .380 No Room for Error in .380  
Join Date: Nov 2014
Location: central Virginia
Posts: 2,890
Likes: 13,146
Liked 6,891 Times in 2,087 Posts
Default

I use AA#5 with both 95 and 100 gr bullets. It has a range in several manuals from 3.3 to 5.0 or 5.1gr.
3.3 would not cycle my sig P238, ended up with an accuracy load of 4.9 gr and average 837 fps from 2.75" bbl in the P238. Very pleasant to shoot, no pressure signs, and AA#5 meters like a dream from my LNL measure and my old Lyman #55.
Reply With Quote
  #20  
Old 06-20-2017, 07:13 PM
rockquarry rockquarry is online now
Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Posts: 7,552
Likes: 4
Liked 8,885 Times in 4,121 Posts
Default

I guess "target accuracy" is a relative term, but in my experience, good cast bullet loads from a Walther or Makarov will group inside of 4"-5" at 25 yards and should shoot far better than that at 25 feet. It's difficult to get a true accuracy perspective at such a short distance. I don't recall loading jacketed bullets; they may be more accurate than cast, but not necessarily so.
Reply With Quote
  #21  
Old 06-21-2017, 01:23 PM
mikld's Avatar
mikld mikld is online now
Member
No Room for Error in .380 No Room for Error in .380 No Room for Error in .380 No Room for Error in .380 No Room for Error in .380  
Join Date: May 2012
Location: S. Orygun
Posts: 2,461
Likes: 1,962
Liked 1,827 Times in 987 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by TomkinsSP View Post
There are big .380s. Star and Llama made 'em for places you can't legally own service caliber weapons. BDAs aren't tiny. Although small, ponys, micros and 238s can deliver some accuracy at short range.
Jes for my info; when was the last Star or Llama in 380 (or 9mm Browning, 9mm Short, 9x17 or 9mm Corto) produced and sold in the US? I've only seen them in books, never for sale...

Last edited by mikld; 06-21-2017 at 01:25 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #22  
Old 06-21-2017, 02:02 PM
STORMINORMAN STORMINORMAN is offline
Member
No Room for Error in .380 No Room for Error in .380 No Room for Error in .380 No Room for Error in .380 No Room for Error in .380  
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: Pacific NW
Posts: 2,107
Likes: 1,154
Liked 1,383 Times in 835 Posts
Default

Well, there are some very fine Beretta's & CZ83's, along with the Walther PK380, and almost every major ammo manufacturer now includes a personal defense loading (or two, sometimes!) in 380acp. Take a look at the ballistics101.com website and go to that caliber for many choices.

A very interesting series of videos also documments the 380ACP Ammo Quest.

My personal factory favorites are the Freedom Arms 90gr. XTP loading (as in the "NEW" version) and Fiocchi's loading of that same bullet: it includes nickel plated cases as a bonus!

Cheers!
Reply With Quote
  #23  
Old 06-21-2017, 02:23 PM
kbm6893 kbm6893 is offline
SWCA Member
No Room for Error in .380 No Room for Error in .380  
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Pennsylvania
Posts: 6,625
Likes: 636
Liked 6,861 Times in 2,541 Posts
Default

Well, I just got .380 dies and hornady lock and load bushings. I like using those. Just twist the dies in and out. No unscrewing needed. I have 500 Xtreme 100 grain RNFP bullets on the way. I'll load 5 2.9 grains and 5 3.0 grains using my HP38. If the 2.9 function I'll stick with them just to be safe. Just looking to punch paper. I really gotta get better with this Bodyguard. At 10-12 feet they're all nice and tight. Step back to over 8 yards and the patterns really open up. Still torso hits but not great. I know it's a self defense gun but I'd like to get better. With my Ruger Lc9S or Shield, at 15 yards the group is no bigger than the size of my palm, and usually much smaller.
Reply With Quote
  #24  
Old 06-21-2017, 02:35 PM
patrickd patrickd is offline
Member
No Room for Error in .380 No Room for Error in .380 No Room for Error in .380 No Room for Error in .380 No Room for Error in .380  
Join Date: Aug 2014
Posts: 413
Likes: 342
Liked 445 Times in 203 Posts
Default

There's no room for error in either 9mm or 380. Those two small case 35 cal rounds are pretty high pressure even on the low end of the charge tables. Double up on them and you're in big trouble..
Reply With Quote
  #25  
Old 06-21-2017, 09:57 PM
Wise_A Wise_A is offline
Banned
No Room for Error in .380 No Room for Error in .380 No Room for Error in .380 No Room for Error in .380 No Room for Error in .380  
Join Date: May 2016
Posts: 3,121
Likes: 2,661
Liked 4,324 Times in 1,793 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by patrickd View Post
There's no room for error in either 9mm or 380. Those two small case 35 cal rounds are pretty high pressure even on the low end of the charge tables. Double up on them and you're in big trouble..
You would be hard-pressed to double-up any powder in 9mm, much less .380. There's simply not enough volume in the case with even the densest, most fine-grained powders, without powder spilling out all over the bench. Most charges are very nearly 100% fill to nearly compressed anyway. So unless you're reloading blindfolded, double charges aren't the big concern.

Furthermore, a few tenths of a grain isn't going to kaboom any remotely suitable cartridge. In fact, most of the powders commonly used in 9mm, including faster selections like Bullseye, will burn quite happily well above 9mm proof load pressures. Similarly, most modern 9mms are more than capable of digesting an odd handful of above-pressure ammunition. Remember how hot the NATO-spec 9mm FMJ ammo was back in the day? Turns out it was loaded to levels we would later refer to as "9mm Major", and which sanctioning bodies would later ban as being unsafe. But plenty of people fed their pistols such a diet--not a great idea, or even something you'd want to do, but not a finger-removing activity.

No, the danger of 9mm and .380 Auto is OAL. There's so little case volume that seating a bullet too deep--especially a heavier bullet like the 147-grain 9mm--reduces the case capacity and increases pressure dramatically. Ditto for bullet setback.

Frankly, I consider 9mm to be one of the easiest cartridges to reload successfully.
Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
WebGL Error walkinghorse FORUM OFFICE 0 03-26-2016 05:26 PM
ID 10 T Error...need some help Security isa Myth Smith & Wesson SD & Sigma Pistols 2 12-21-2014 06:29 PM
Model 36 error ?? dolan2 S&W Revolvers: 1961 to 1980 7 08-08-2013 02:10 PM

Powered by vBadvanced CMPS v3.2.3
smith-wessonforum.com tested by Norton Internet Security smith-wessonforum.com tested by McAfee Internet Security

All times are GMT -4. The time now is 04:37 PM.


Smith-WessonForum.com is not affiliated with Smith & Wesson Holding Corporation (NASDAQ Global Select: SWHC)