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Old 06-22-2017, 12:33 AM
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Black Powder Blank 12 gauge shotshells. Powder help? Black Powder Blank 12 gauge shotshells. Powder help? Black Powder Blank 12 gauge shotshells. Powder help? Black Powder Blank 12 gauge shotshells. Powder help? Black Powder Blank 12 gauge shotshells. Powder help?  
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Default Black Powder Blank 12 gauge shotshells. Powder help?

Looking at loading some blank 12 gauge shotshells with black powder for use in a single shot style shotgun (break action). Most recipes call for FFg (6 oz, I believe). Newer shotgun (about 3 years old).

Can I use FFFg? For whatever reason, FFg seems hard to find locally, but triple F is not. Do I need to modify the load any, or should it not be a problem since it is a "blank" with just an overshot card and a roll crimp?
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Old 06-22-2017, 12:56 AM
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I doubt your shotshell would hold 6 oz of black powder.

You have the load wrong.

Perhaps 6 drams?

Drams are a unit of volume (a dram of rum). About 1/8 fluid ounce.
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Old 06-22-2017, 03:15 AM
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It would take less fffg
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Old 06-22-2017, 05:12 AM
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Even 6 Drams of Black Powder would be a huge amount! A 4 dram eq. load is a really hot load.

When I make BP shot shells I only use about 90 grains of FFg w/1 ounce of shot. 200 would probably fill a 3" case to the crimp.

When you determine the charge of powder there will need to be a wad. In modern shot shell this is a plastic column and you could fill it with a wadded clump of tissue paper. In traditional shells the wad was a stack of felt or cork disks to take up volume and reduce felt recoil. Either of these will come out at several hundred to 1000 feet per second!

Black Powder has to be under compression to ignite properly, That is why loading presses have wad pressure adjustments, around 30 pounds of pressure is average. The roll or folded crimp holds this against the powder.

What is the purpose of these home made blanks? If it is just for noise on the 4th of July it is going to be pretty loud! my BP Sporting Clays loads are 50 to 75% louder than Smokeless loads! If it is for bird/goose scaring, it is a bigger pain in the butt than the birds! BP requires a thorough scrubbing after use (within a few hours). If these or for props in a movie or play (indoor or outdoor) these are dangerous! The smoke won't clear in time for the next act. (People have DIED with much smaller handgun blanks).

Muzzle loading shotguns are much easier to make a blank load for. Cartridge blanks require a huge amount of care!

Ivan
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Old 06-22-2017, 05:24 AM
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6 drams of FFg is a normal BLANK load in a 12ga. It needs an over powder card wad (usually .135"), tightly compressed to insure ignition. That leaves just enough room for a normal star crimp to close the hull and keep the card wad from shifting.
Use real blackpowder, not pyrodex, for best results, and the gun will make a satisfying boom with an impressive bright burning flash of fire.
I know what my long-deceased blackpowder mentor would say about substituting pistol powder in a shotgun charge: "Boy, you wanting to make shotgun loads or a hand grenade?"


And as Ivan noted, you can injure or kill animals or people with the wad and blast from a shotgun blank.
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Old 06-22-2017, 12:26 PM
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I used to shoot regular loads of shotshell powder/wad/primer simply without the shot load and they did make a satisfying bang. You're right about the danger of the wad, I pointed the muzzle at the lawn and blew a good sized chunk of sod out of it with the blast and wad.

If you use BP or a BP sub for the purpose of more smoke, just make sure you really clean out the barrel after shooting. Not only will you get heavy fouling, but the fouling will also attract moisture and cause the barrel to rust.

Last edited by rsrocket1; 06-22-2017 at 01:22 PM.
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Old 06-22-2017, 01:44 PM
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You could experiment to see what the minimum quantity required to make enough noise is. The BP granulation used won't make much difference. I would imagine Pyrodex might work OK if you can't find BP. BTW, One Dram of BP = 27.34 grains.
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Old 06-22-2017, 04:19 PM
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WE used to use a bang/smoke load for yacht racing. IIRC were made by Winchester/Western. You could see the smoke for the entire starting line and the judge boat. A loud bang if you were close enough, but you crossed on the smoke. Non corrosive, even in a marine environment. Wish I still had some.
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Old 06-22-2017, 06:58 PM
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I am an old west re-enactor and we load all of our own blanks.....except the shotguns. Those we purchase and have used WW Blackpowder and Fiocchi smokless. Those BP's are LOUD!!!

We have messed with loading the shotguns too, and it is just such a pain we buy them instead. However, if you want to try them what has worked for us is loading the shell about 3/4 full with BP and top it off with vermiculite. (can be purchased at Home Depot, Menard's, etc). It compresses easily and is extremely light in weight. It has proven to be the best material to compress the powder in all of our blanks as it is the safest. As mentioned already a card wad in a shot shell is deadly. The vermiculite will come out a disperse in the air.

Dan
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Old 06-22-2017, 07:35 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rpg View Post
I doubt your shotshell would hold 6 oz of black powder.

You have the load wrong.

Perhaps 6 drams?

Drams are a unit of volume (a dram of rum). About 1/8 fluid ounce.
NO, it is not! In this context a dram is a weight measure equal to 27 1/2** grains. 6 drams would be 165 grains. Without a bullet it will not develop significant pressure, and whether FFg or FFg is used is immaterial. Not knowing the condition of the gun you will shoot these is keeping to 3 to 3 1/2 Dr. would be a good idea, and you probably won't notice the difference in the report.

Strictly DWalt is correct, but functionally 27 1/2 is identical.
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Old 06-22-2017, 09:41 PM
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I load a few 12g BP shells for a old Wire Twist dbl. I use FFFg
because that is what I shot in my TC Hawkin. The ML nuts think
it's terrible but my 50 cal shoots well with it. My BP shotgun
loads use the old fiber over the powder wad, firmly seated. I
load 50grs of 3Fg for blank load. Kids like to bang them of on
4th and New Years. Anything over 50grs is a waste. In modern
steel single barrel a blank load will only burn so much powder.
You don't have to worry about a over load, it will end up as
smoke, fire, and unburnt powder on the ground.
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Old 06-23-2017, 09:42 AM
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Back in my CAS days, I once loaded some BP 12 ga shot loads (not blanks) for my Winchester Model 97. I used standard plastic shot cups. The plastic from the shot cups coated the barrel bore after using them - I was cleaning out long plastic strands which never happened with smokeless loads. That was the first and last time I used BP for shotgun shells.
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Old 06-23-2017, 06:16 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DWalt View Post
Back in my CAS days, I once loaded some BP 12 ga shot loads (not blanks) for my Winchester Model 97. I used standard plastic shot cups. The plastic from the shot cups coated the barrel bore after using them - I was cleaning out long plastic strands which never happened with smokeless loads. That was the first and last time I used BP for shotgun shells.
Saw this happen in a couple of SASS matches. Never a good idea to use plastic shot cups with black powder. Enough plastic accumulated in the bore of one Model 97 to create an obstruction that caused the barrel to blow out.
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Old 06-26-2017, 10:22 PM
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You guys were correct, I meant 6 drams and not 6 ounces. Yikes, screwed up my post right out of the starting gate!

Usage is in a modern single shot 12 gauge that typically shoots smokeless slugs for visual and auditory effect.

Would prefer to have no wad or overshot card if at all possible, and I have a star crimper and a roll crimper... But no idea how to get the shell closed without having black powder be exposed to suck up moisture (potentially) or without having to use an overshot card (and don't really want a potential projectile). Thoughts?
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Old 06-27-2017, 03:02 AM
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Fill over powder with toilet paper and star crimp. Paper will burn
when it clears muzzel and float down. Don't use around where
you might start a brush fire.
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Old 07-01-2017, 02:43 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Drm50 View Post
Fill over powder with toilet paper and star crimp. Paper will burn
when it clears muzzel and float down. Don't use around where
you might start a brush fire.
Dang, never thought about the toilet paper and star crimp method... I like it. Thanks!
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Old 07-01-2017, 02:53 PM
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For My BP blanks for July 4th I use 70 grains of FFFG( all I use for everything BP) an overpowder card and stuff with toilet paper so it holds a good crimp. Never had a problem. Have fun!
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Old 07-01-2017, 04:07 PM
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Years ago inherited my g-grandpa's 12g DBLs, wire twist BP gun.
Someone in family had removed firing pins to keep it from use
with smokeless. I made pins for it and literally "hand" loaded a
box of shells for it. Used TP fore over the powder wad. Bro and
I decided to take it squirrel hunting, each shoot a couple with it
then retire it to the wall. Shot squirrel out of grapevines and the
TP burning set vines on fire. We spent a 1/2 hour jerking vines
down and stamping out fires. Use caution when using TP for wad.
I believe we were using Charmin but you don't have to use the
good stuff.
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Old 07-01-2017, 06:24 PM
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Vermiculite or styrofoam should work well as a filler.
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Old 10-05-2022, 07:05 PM
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Quote:
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Vermiculite or styrofoam should work well as a filler.
What ?

No Quaker Puffed Rice ! ?
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Old 10-06-2022, 09:44 AM
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Standard loads for shotgun BP loadings were loaded by volume, not weight. A 1 oz load of pellets measured by volume, then use the same measure for powder. It turns out that 70 grains of BP by volume is equal to 1 oz of pellets. Velocity around 1100fps.

If you are going to load a lot of these blanks, use 70 grains and a 12 ga nitro card in a plastic hull. Slightly larger than the case ID, they will pack down the powder and not move. Just crimp the top of the empty case and no need for filler. Do a little experimentation since some cheap plastic hulls are very thin. Use quality hulls like Remington STS or Winchester AA. If using brass, be careful with choosing wads since the inside diameter is very large and a 12 ga wad will not properly seal. One note on stryrofoam. It will melt when fired and line your bore with plastic, making it harder to clean. It is the same reason that one should not use plastic wads with BP.

I have not done this, but some use melted bee's wax to pour a small amount on the top of the wad. It secures the wad and offers lubrication to the wad and barrel upon firing, and reduces fouling.

I should also add that it is imperative that you do not shoot these blanks in very dry conditions because you can start fires! Lots of sparks and burning powder will leave the barrel.
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Old 10-06-2022, 10:34 AM
Ivan the Butcher Ivan the Butcher is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by glowe View Post
If you are going to load a lot of these blanks, use 70 grains and a 12 ga nitro card in a plastic hull. Slightly larger than the case ID, they will pack down the powder and not move. Just crimp the top of the empty case and no need for filler. Do a little experimentation since some cheap plastic hulls are very thin. Use quality hulls like Remington STS or Winchester AA. If using brass, be careful with choosing wads since the inside diameter is very large and a 12 ga wad will not properly seal. One note on stryrofoam. It will melt when fired and line your bore with plastic, making it harder to clean. It is the same reason that one should not use plastic wads with BP.

.
I have loaded all brass, paper and plastic hulls with Black Powder for hunting and Sporting Clays. The supplies are different sized for each type of hull. Ballistic Products sells everything you need in the was of over powder cards, wads, overshot cards and roll crimping devises. (In all brass hulls your cards and wads need to be one gauge LARGER than you are loading. So 12-gauge uses 11-gauge cards and wads.)

I have yet to find a good method of crimping all brass hulls. I use an over shot card and seal it in place with gutter seam sealer and allow to cure for 2 weeks. I have tried bee's wax, and Elmer's glue and ended up with a shell pouch of loose shot!

Hunting isn't really a problem. Sporting clays, you lose visibility after the first shot! Also the score keeper has problems seeing what you broke.

Ivan
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Old 10-06-2022, 07:02 PM
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I used to use a antique roll crimping machine. My Sears & Roebuck roll crimper would round the top of the brass case just enough to secure the over-shot wad. They make a modern one that would probably work better than the old one. "Roll Crimping Tool 12 GAUGE, zn12 by "FC" shotshell" is a good search term. Below is a link to the manufacturer's site. ebay has them cheaper.

Roll Crimping Tool 12 GAUGE, zn12 by "FC" shoshell reload 686751346194 | eBay

You can also buy the vintage ones like mine shown below.

Black Powder Blank 12 gauge shotshells. Powder help?-p1010006-jpg
Black Powder Blank 12 gauge shotshells. Powder help?-p1010004-jpg

I can show how these work. Takes some effort, but gives good results.

Quote:
Black Powder Blank 12 gauge shotshells. Powder help?-img_20221006_182254_1cs-jpg
Attached Images
File Type: jpg P1010006.jpg (95.9 KB, 26 views)
File Type: jpg P1010004.jpg (99.6 KB, 25 views)
File Type: jpg IMG_20221006_182254_1CS.jpg (40.9 KB, 24 views)
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Old 10-06-2022, 08:53 PM
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There is little need for confinement to get a good Boom from BP. Civil War reinactors usually just stuff some paper over the powder charge in muskets, and artillery pieces usually use “cartridges” which consist of some BP wrapped in aluminum foil with no wadding at all.
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