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Old 06-22-2017, 10:07 PM
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Default How many of you use a chronograph/radar

How many of you folks measure bullet speed when developing loads? I haven't and I feel like Im driving blind to some extent. I've deveoped some very accurate, user friendly rounds in my favorite calibers, but I only have a rough idea of their velocities. I dont shoot competitively so I dont need to confirm power factor. I guess Im just curious. The range I use most is not set up well for a chrono, so I would likely be looking at a Lab Radar unit. Not the most economic option, but sure looks interesting.

For those of you running a Lab Radar, does it only work in large open space, or could it work in an indoor range shooting stall if no one is next to me?

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Old 06-22-2017, 10:11 PM
Mike, SC Hunter Mike, SC Hunter is offline
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I'm old school......Been using Dr Ken's Oehler 35P for over 25 years.....
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Old 06-22-2017, 10:58 PM
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It is not just power factor for competition. I am currently developing a 240 grain JHP 10MM Auto load for use in suppressed SMGs. So I need to approach the sound barrier without breaking it in a 8+" barrel. I use a MP5/10 for development


You also will learn about all the "FACTs" about barrel length or ports or B/C gap sizes that suddenly become Urban Legends once you can see the numbers
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I'm old school......Been using Dr Ken's Oehler 35P for over 25 years.....
My first chronograph was an Oehler 33 purchased in the eighties. Still own it.

I have had 6 units over the years including an Oehler 43 PBL that was stolen from the building it was stored in

These days I mostly use my Magnetospeed or my LabRadar because they are so easy to setup since I no longer have a permanent facility

Dr. Oehler is a great guy to deal with. I was at the SHOT show many years ago and mentioned that I needed to get a case for a skyscreen that a buddy shot. He missed the electronics so I just needed the housing.

When Dr. Oehler heard that I needed a housing for a skyscreen II he sent me a set of skyscreen IIIs at no charge.

I wish he would go back to making the model 43 or a modern equivalent. I would by it in a heartbeat.
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Old 06-22-2017, 11:21 PM
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I have a comp electronics pro chrono that I use quite often. It comes in handy.
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Old 06-22-2017, 11:35 PM
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I've had a cheap chrono for years and I used it quite a bit for a while after I got it. After the novelty and newness of it wore off I hardly ever use it now.
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Old 06-23-2017, 12:18 AM
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I've not found the need for myself. I also load user friendly loads and for my SD loads I just go with published max loads.
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Old 06-23-2017, 01:01 AM
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I have 2 different models of "Crony" I use to establish the velocity, so I can work up the proper ballistics using Sierra's program. Even with rifles I can do this on an indoor pistol range. (Sometimes you will need the optional light kit!)

We have given a number of awards for shooting the most Cronys in a single day, best group on/in a Crony! We had one unfortunate guy kill 4 in 7 days! We will never let him live it down, AND we will never loan him another Crony! (the first 2 of the 4 belonged to others.)

Ivan
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Old 06-23-2017, 01:10 AM
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I have one that was gifted by a member here who just happened to have on in his garage he wasn't using. I'm a big experimenter, so I put it to use right away. In fact, I was using it on the range today.
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Old 06-23-2017, 02:23 AM
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For rifle, with only relatively short range shooting available, IMO you can let the paper speak. SD is relatively unimportant out to (arguably) 300 yards. Increasing distance beyond that makes SD become more important. You can read pressure signs off the brass.

For pistol pressure all you've got available to read is felt recoil and ejection distance vs (eg) factory ammo to guide you. At normal pistol distances, SD is not a major factor.

But in either case, knowing the velocity of a particular shot can help explain things when they go awry.

As for which chrono . . . I have a CED M2 optical, a MagnetoSpeed V1, and a LabRadar. If you are shooting solid projectiles (not shotshell) under 4,000 fps, and are not shooting suppressed inside a shooting gallery, the LabRadar is the way to go if it's in your budget range. Works in any light, any weather, doesn't change your POI or group size when it's used, it's hard to shoot one , and is set up on your bench when the range is hot or (on most ranges) cold.

I pretty much chrono and record every rifle shot because (a) with the LabRadar I can, and (b) the more data on a load the more certain I am of its real variability.

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Old 06-23-2017, 02:43 AM
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Love my Oehler 35P. My kids got it for me for Christmas a few years back.
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Old 06-23-2017, 03:18 AM
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Never owned one, just don't have any interest in the number crunching, data sheet, pie chart thing.
I reload a lot, shoot at the range at targets and see the results. Velocity I can surmise by the published reloading data I use.
but to be honest I really don't pay too much attention to that anyway.

I can see where lots of shooters like them and see them as an accessory to the reloading and shooting. Nothing wrong with that.
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Old 06-23-2017, 06:10 AM
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I have a $99 Pro Chrono Digital and I chronograph every single
handload I try. I wouldn't be without a chronograph.
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Old 06-23-2017, 07:25 AM
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I've had one for 25 years. Once I develop a load that I like, I check the velocity. I also avoid max loads.
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Old 06-23-2017, 07:29 AM
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I purchased a labradar last year and returned it and went with a magnetospeed. The reason for it being returned was it wouldn't read .223 rounds with any consistency, .30 cal and above no problem. The magnetospeed works with all my rifles and no sky screens to set up.
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Old 06-23-2017, 07:39 AM
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Default As The OP Said

I too felt that I was driving blind with no idea of what my reloads were doing besides not showing pressure signs. I use the basic Chrony which has added a new dimension to my reloading, mainly for my own enjoyment and edification as I stopped being a competitive shooter decades ago. Also, my deer hunting was in the Catskill Mountains of NY where 100 yards is a very long shot and I didn't need to milk every last FPS out of a load.
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Old 06-23-2017, 08:44 AM
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Interesting experiemnt I just did, with my Pro Chrono. I've been reloading for the past 28 years, and have never NOT weighed a charge on my scale. Never. For the past 20 years I've been using Redding BR power measures, and have watched guys at the range and at matches just set their measure and start charging cases(I used to shudder). Now I know, all you progressive reloaders just set it and start throwing charges too but I never have. Hell, I just got a tumbler a few years ago...I'm old fashioned and dont deviate from what works lol. Anyway, I decided to set my measure, throw a few test charges and then proceed to charge 10 .44 magum cases with a target load I use very often, consisting of HP-38. I set up my Chrono outside and shot all 10 round through it just to see what SD would be without weighing and trickling to perfection. 10 shots gave me an SD of 11! Hows that for uniformity. I still lan to weigh every rifle charge, but all my handgun loads will be thrown without weighing every one....maybe weighing every 15th or so. Sure speeds up my replenishment of handgun cartridges, and without a Chrono I would have never tried that. Again, big step for me...I/m cautious and a creature of habit
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Old 06-23-2017, 09:08 AM
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Does Magneto Speed work well on pistols?
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Old 06-23-2017, 09:38 AM
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I never felt the need to buy a chronograph, but they are useful when loading for specific velocities. Mostly I've loaded just for accuracy over the years and found that a Ransom Rest was more useful for my specific purpose. I've found that my buddies who have chronographs have used them a handful of times and then put them away to gather dust. If I feel the need to use one, I just borrow one.
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Old 06-23-2017, 09:46 AM
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Checking the book velocity against a chronograph is an eye opening experience. I have also found that guns that with the same barrel lengths won't have the same velocity.
I'm pretty sure none of that matters to most people that shoot or to anything that gets shot but a person shouldn't use the book or the results from a gun other than their own to determine velocity. Larry
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Old 06-23-2017, 09:49 AM
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Yes, Competition Electronics Pro Chrono Digital.

No radar
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Old 06-23-2017, 09:52 AM
Mike, SC Hunter Mike, SC Hunter is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 2152hq View Post
Never owned one, just don't have any interest in the number crunching, data sheet, pie chart thing.
I reload a lot, shoot at the range at targets and see the results. Velocity I can surmise by the published reloading data I use.
but to be honest I really don't pay too much attention to that anyway.

I can see where lots of shooters like them and see them as an accessory to the reloading and shooting. Nothing wrong with that.
Published velocities(taken with a test gun in a controlled enviroment) are just an average and don t really mean that's the velocitiy you will achieve with your paticular gun...ie..I was looking for the highest velocity with a certain Sierra bullet in my 30/06.......Cronographing was the only true way to achieve that......H414 won the day.....
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Old 06-23-2017, 11:05 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SLT223 View Post
Does Magneto Speed work well on pistols?
NO.

I will attach just fine on suppressed auto-loaders or pistols that have a picatinny rail (if you purchase the optional adapter)

The other 95% of handguns are out of luck
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Old 06-23-2017, 11:11 AM
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I've used 1 since the 80's.

While velocity has always taken a back seat/secondary while using a chronograph. That info is useful. Things like how position sensitive or temperature sensitive a load is has always been more important to me.

Velocities/position/temp testing is huge when it comes to testing sd ammo/loads in short bbl'd firearms.

Mechanical issues will show up when testing firearms with a chronograph. Consistent ignition is a huge part of the accuracy game. I've had where I was testing a new rimfire rifle and it was struggling with 2 different types of ammo that I brought. Normally I would of thought nothing of it and figured it was picky and I need to keep looking for the right lot/ammo for that rifle. I happened to be testing the rifle/ammo over a chronograph and realized the sd was over double with that same ammo tested in several firearms. Did some work on the bolt & the sd's came down and the groups tightened up.

I also use a chronograph when I work on firearms ignition parts. It's nothing to see the sd's get cut in 1/2 after the work/improvements are done on pistols/revolvers/rifles.

Anyway, a chronograph is useful for more than just reading velocities.
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Old 06-23-2017, 11:25 AM
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I use a cheapo Caldwell chrony but it more than does the job for my purposes. It is invaluable when working up a new load and great to ensure I am maintaining consistency over my favorite loads. When I first started out I had to make use of a community property chrony at my range so I never did load and shoot anything without quantifiable information. It's just so much easier now setting up on my property for testing.

I'm not a precision/long distance shooter. I'm only concerned with the most common pistol calibers and .300 Blackout so I'm very pleased with the results and minimal investment I have in my Caldwell system.

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Old 06-23-2017, 11:57 AM
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Yes, I do use a chronograph for some of my shooting and reloading. At the moment, I am primarily shooting 600 and 1000 yard F class matches. In load development, I first aim for the lowest SD, then I work towards the smallest vertical displacement possible at either 200 or 300 yards.

For handgun loads, my goal in developing ammo is first to get a load that reliably cycles the actions on my semi-auto pistols, then to shoot the smallest, consistent groups at 25 and 50 yards. The need to know the velocity of my handgun ammo is less important.

I have had, at some point, three different chronographs. I have a PACT, which is buried someplace in my workshop, not having seen it since before my accident ten years ago. I had a Chrony for about 5 months, then sold it; with damaged legs, it was a pain resetting the tripod every other shot (it would get blown over by the muzzle blast, my function range prevented placing the device greater than 15 feet from the muzzle. I then upgraded to a Magnetospeed Sporter. For me, this device has been an answer to my prayers. I would not try to mount the Magnetospeed on a semi-auto, or a revolver with less than a six inch barrel. This way, I can get a reasonable idea of the velocity of my 38s, 357s, and 41 loads, when curiosity gets the better of me.
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Old 06-23-2017, 02:06 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SLT223 View Post
Does Magneto Speed work well on pistols?
Not very many. Personally I don't chrono my hand gun loads, just load for accuracy at practical pistol distance that's really all I need. Whole different story with a rifle, when stretching the distance out beyond 500 yds you really need to know the speed of the bullet.
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Old 06-23-2017, 02:45 PM
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Shooting chrony f1 here. Its only around 110 shipped ( not including the camera stand and the remote control). Temperature and altitude have an affect on speed so yeah as a reloader I feel it is mandatory...








oh and use a benchrest, I got creative and wasn't using a bench rest and was standing, and shot one once with 10mm FMJ from a G29 , no it didn't explode




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Old 06-23-2017, 02:55 PM
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Nice for long range varmint hunting, Chrony the load and print results and tape to stock. Dope the wind and mirage and bingo Bullseye
Fact of the matter, "You will never know where you are headed if you don't know where you've been"
A good Chrony will read a fleeting .17 on a cloudy day
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Old 06-23-2017, 03:14 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ivan the Butcher View Post
I have 2 different models of "Crony" I use to establish the velocity, so I can work up the proper ballistics using Sierra's program. Even with rifles I can do this on an indoor pistol range. (Sometimes you will need the optional light kit!)

We have given a number of awards for shooting the most Cronys in a single day, best group on/in a Crony! We had one unfortunate guy kill 4 in 7 days! We will never let him live it down, AND we will never loan him another Crony! (the first 2 of the 4 belonged to others.)

Ivan
I really appreciate this "award for killing most Chronys". Many years ago I was at a club USPSA match where an Oehler 35 was set up. I had some new handloads and got permission to chrono with strong warning to not shoot the chrono! I did fine but then the club goofus came up and asked to chrono. I made him ask the owner who said OK but please don't shoot the chrono. Goofus stepped up, fired one shot and destroyed the sky screens! I couldn't help myself; it was a genuine ROTFLMAO!!

I shot my own cheap Chrony trying to test .223 handloads in a scoped rifle. The bullet clipped the top edge of the metal Chrony and sent that puppy flying down range. Chrony has a doofus friendly policy on repairs/replacement.
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Old 06-23-2017, 03:20 PM
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Quote:
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I really appreciate this "award for killing most Chronys". Many years ago I was at a club USPSA match where an Oehler 35 was set up. I had some new handloads and got permission to chrono with strong warning to not shoot the chrono! I did fine but then the club goofus came up and asked to chrono. I made him ask the owner who said OK but please don't shoot the chrono. Goofus stepped up, fired one shot and destroyed the sky screens! I couldn't help myself; it was a genuine ROTFLMAO!!

I shot my own cheap Chrony trying to test .223 handloads in a scoped rifle. The bullet clipped the top edge of the metal Chrony and sent that puppy flying down range. Chrony has a doofus friendly policy on repairs/replacement.


Another thing I did was replace the metal arms for the screens with wooden dowels.... just in case, I have seen them shot and they rip the crony apart where they insert. That being said the above was the first one I shot in 15 years so I guess I'm not doing that bad
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Old 06-23-2017, 04:48 PM
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I too was curious about my reloading and decided to get a LabRadar. I don't have any others to compare it against, but it is super easy to setup and measure. For me, I didn't want to spend a lot of time, and was a member of one indoor range where you could not go down range. Now, I'm at a place where I can, but it is so easy to use.

I don't use it a ton, but each time I try a different bullet weight or type, or change powder brands, I use the chrony to help me with developing my loads. Especially with plated bullets, where the manufacturer says to use the upper end of lead bullets to middle of FMJ. It makes me more confident of what I'm doing.

Also, before, I was gauging based on the subjective accuracy alone. Now, I have more data on my loads.

Lastly, I have 3.3" and 4" barrels for 9mm and it was interesting to see the PF and velocity differences. There's more to learn, and it is fun to tinker with. Hard to justify the price, so if you know someone that has one, it may be worthwhile to share/borrow if you can.
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Old 06-23-2017, 05:53 PM
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I chronograph every batch of competion ammo I reload since the day I failed to make PF with a load that was well over the 170 mark the previous year. I believe it was due to different powder lots

I usually don't bother with my practice loads except a 2 or 3 times a year just to check they are within the ball park.

But what I do do is regularly practice out to 45 meters/50 yards on a 10 inch plate so I know where I need to aim to hit at that distance and I record this in a note on my phone for reference during competition

One thing I did discover. After more than 25 years of using Federal primers for reliable ignition I had to resort to Winchester primers when Federal was in short supply. The velocity increased by more than 50 fps on average over a 10 shot string.

With my rifles I will chronograph before sightingin/checking zero just so I can get a trajectory table which I print off and place in a file for reference.

Last edited by Kiwi cop; 06-23-2017 at 05:58 PM.
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Old 06-23-2017, 06:22 PM
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I've got a Pro Chrono I've used since they came out. They are very affordable now and you right, basically are driving blind without knowing how many FPS your loads are. There is so much room for improvement once you Chrono your loads.
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Old 06-24-2017, 01:02 AM
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It was nice just going out and shooting lots of targets and just
measuring the holes and groups when I got home, in my early years.

Then I got a chrony........

Shooting times with setup, logging data and the running back and forth
made the outing three times longer but at least I now had the fps, of my loads.

With three different calibers and 29 loads coming up in my next outing........
I will "Old school" and just shoot the targets for groups, finding the best ones
then go back out to where I can shoot and chrony the "Keepers" on another outing.

Tight groups.
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Old 06-24-2017, 10:37 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SLT223 View Post
How many of you folks measure bullet speed when developing loads? I haven't and I feel like Im driving blind to some extent. I've deveoped some very accurate, user friendly rounds in my favorite calibers, but I only have a rough idea of their velocities. I dont shoot competitively so I dont need to confirm power factor. I guess Im just curious. The range I use most is not set up well for a chrono, so I would likely be looking at a Lab Radar unit. Not the most economic option, but sure looks interesting.

For those of you running a Lab Radar, does it only work in large open space, or could it work in an indoor range shooting stall if no one is next to me?
Because you are flying blind w/o a chrono. I've been using a chrono since paper screens. I could reload w/o now, but everything is a guess.
I use an oehler, best imo, but they all work, some just better than others. Seeing the labdar in use at the Idpa nats, i would buy one today if looking to spend what a new oehler cost. They are not light sensitive & can be used in varying locations more easily than something with sky screens.
Btw, its not just about knowing the fps. You can judge pressure increases when swapping components. This alone is worth buying one. If you load for gun games, its a must to make sure you make pf. Book data almost never matches reality. Fwiw,dont buy a Chrony, krap. Yes they work, but there is a reason they get shot. ****** screens & shooters keep getting lower & lower to get a reading. Just spend another $50 & get a Prochrono or CED.
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Old 06-24-2017, 10:57 AM
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Buying a LabRadar is the best money I've ever spent. It's the first and only chronograph I've ever used or owned.

The LabRadar has taught me that the published loading manuals are just a guide and nothing more.
They are a place to start, and that's it.

The data listed in the manuals is what they got with their specific components.
If you change anything, you'll get different results.

Without some way to measure the velocity of your bullets, you really are loading blind and have no way of knowing what your ammo is actually doing.

.

Last edited by JBnTx; 06-24-2017 at 11:00 AM.
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Old 06-24-2017, 11:50 AM
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"Without some way to measure the velocity of your bullets, you really are loading blind and
have no way of knowing what your ammo is actually doing."


Back in the late 70's I developed a "Winter load" for my .270 Win. with a 130gr bullet
for when there was 3-4 feet of snow on the ground and this caused
some misfires years back with just standard primers, in the cold weather.
It was "Hot" and accurate but to this day I will not test it in 70 degree weather or warmer......

I remember what a 55gr. developed 70 degree load for my 22-250 did on a 100 degree day !
In 70* weather it does 3605 fps....... but I did not have a chrony yet.

Being young and liking "Full loads" in my weapons, I figured it was time to get a chrony
to help keep things a little safer for my weapons and shooters.

It was even better for my development of 12 Ga. trap and field loads !! Nice to know what energy you have
with a Skeet #9 at 1135fps or a steel BB going 1550fps to get energy's at the 5,000 foot elevation in Reno......
not sea level, per the manuals.
Also nice to have a legal load for those ATA shoots, also.
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Old 06-24-2017, 11:57 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nevada Ed View Post
It was nice just going out and shooting lots of targets and just
measuring the holes and groups when I got home, in my early years.

Then I got a chrony........

Shooting times with setup, logging data and the running back and forth
made the outing three times longer but at least I now had the fps, of my loads.

With three different calibers and 29 loads coming up in my next outing........
I will "Old school" and just shoot the targets for groups, finding the best ones
then go back out to where I can shoot and chrony the "Keepers" on another outing.

Tight groups.
I like stats. That's why baseball is my favorite sport. That's why I love using a chronograph
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Old 06-24-2017, 05:16 PM
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Quote:
SLT223 wrote:
How many of you folks measure bullet speed when developing loads?
Shooting Chrony Chronograph.

Used primarily when developing a new load. The chronograph itself is 25 years old and there's no provision for user calibration, so I don't use it so much to measure actual velocity as the velocities reported could 5 or 10% high or low. I use it principally to ensure consistency of the velocity within the string.
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Old 06-25-2017, 06:13 PM
Qc Pistolero Qc Pistolero is offline
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I've been reloading since the mid '70s.I bought a Chrony last year.It sure tells me a lot about my reloads and how different guns of same caliber behave.But I still keep the same approach;I develop the load and when I'm satisfied,I chrono it.Of course,I keep using the safe side approach when developping a load.
Qc
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Old 06-28-2017, 03:12 AM
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For serious hand loaders using a chronograph is like using the seat belt in your car. It can help keep you from getting hurt.
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Old 06-28-2017, 08:03 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SLT223 View Post
Does Magneto Speed work well on pistols?
Works on on the 6" barrels. Tougher on the 4". Does not work on semi autos or odd barrels like the XP-100 where you can't get proper distance between the spike and the barrel.
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Old 06-28-2017, 04:49 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by colt_saa View Post
NO.

I will attach just fine on suppressed auto-loaders or pistols that have a picatinny rail (if you purchase the optional adapter)

The other 95% of handguns are out of luck
Sorta' depends on barrel length, at least where revolvers are concerned...

I was thinking of mounting one on a "rest" where the the auto pistols or shorter-barreled revolvers could be oriented right above the sensors...? Not like you have to shoot 50 rounds to get a ballpark velocity reading?

Cheers!
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Old 06-28-2017, 04:54 PM
STORMINORMAN STORMINORMAN is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by eb07 View Post
I like stats. That's why baseball is my favorite sport. That's why I love using a chronograph
What a terrible disappointment most of the so-called celeb "announcers" are now-a-days... It used to be that the people actually KNEW baseball (stats and all!) and were not just reading (being fed?) numbers off a computer screen or teleprompter!
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  #45  
Old 06-28-2017, 04:57 PM
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Sorta' depends on barrel length, at least where revolvers are concerned...
True, it will probably mount just fine on an 8 3/8" Smith and Wesson. I was not trying to confuse you win an absolute.

Quote:
Originally Posted by STORMINORMAN View Post
I was thinking of mounting one on a "rest" where the the auto pistols or shorter-barreled revolvers could be oriented right above the sensors...? Not like you have to shoot 50 rounds to get a ballpark velocity reading?

Cheers!
You can not use it that way.

The sensor needs to be ~1/4" below the bore. The Magnetospeed comes with a 1/4" square rod to help set that up when you are attaching it to a firearm.
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Old 07-02-2017, 09:32 AM
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I have had a PACT PTofessional XP for almost 20 years and would never reload ammo without it. When I purchased it, I wondered if I was wasting money over buying the cheap one-piece units, but have been very happy with the features, print-out options, ballistic calculation capabilities, and other detailed calculations done by the unit. It is also good for pistol, rifles, muzzleloaders, and shotguns.

In those 20 years, I have shot, or others have shot, up a few vanes off the sensors, and one friend with a Chrony who shot right through his electronics, using a high mount scope. His replacement costs were much higher than some plastic vanes for my unit. Stuff happens - so buy something that will last no matter what . . .

I would not only recommend that all that reload use a chronograph, but would almost beg that those who do not, go out and buy one. Printed reloading data is way too generic for me. Hardly any sources list barrel lengths for pistols or rifles, address the use of fillers for high volume cases or low volume powders, etc. They also are not using your guns. I am convinced by 30 years of research and shooting that there is a valid correlation between pressures and velocities, so I always load by setting limits on velocity for every caliber, gun, and components. So far, so good.
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Old 07-02-2017, 10:49 AM
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I would not only recommend that all that reload use a chronograph, but would almost beg that those who do not, go out and buy one.

Printed reloading data is way too generic for me...

...They also are not using your guns.
^^^^Everyone without a chronograph should read this.
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