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Old 07-26-2017, 01:03 PM
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Default Rimmed and Rimless, Case Capy in Theory

So, in my time on this forum I see debates as to the relative power of longer rimmed and shorter rimless cartriges that load the same diameter bullets. As someone who does not have an education in math or physics, but has been reloading 15 years now, and sees the debate as comical, I wonder if I am missing something.
As everyone on this forum knows, both the .37 Pike-Carson and the 9.5mm Junkers use .371 bullets nominally 175 grains. Conviently the case capacity of the .37 P-C is exactly twice that of the 9.5 J with fully seated 175gr projectiles. SAAMY rates the .37 at 16,000 ZUP and the 9.5 at 32,000. I use 4.0 grains of PolkaDot in both loadings. PolkaDot is the worlds fastest powder so it burns instantaneously in the case, and the pressure spike is at ignition.
My contention is that because there is twice as much space in the .37 P-C brass as in the 9.5 J brass, the pressure is halved.
Data in Pettigrew's 3d ed, and real word experience with firearms of similar barrel length seem to support this idea.
Am I crazy, lucky, both?
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Old 07-26-2017, 07:32 PM
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Your posts are lacking spelling, content, and fail to ask a valid question.


Capy and Minty: Two incredible terms used when describing firearms.

Case capacity vs powder burn rate and charge is addressed in a reloading manual.
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Old 07-26-2017, 08:11 PM
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It will make perfect sense to some folks!
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Old 07-26-2017, 08:21 PM
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Actually if you ignore the mis-spellings, grammar errors and concentrate on the "gist" of what he is expressing it is a near text book example of Boyle's Gas Law. So what he has expressed not only makes perfect sense it's also well supported by Proven Physics. Basically if you take a particular Mass of a gas and reduce the volume containing that Mass of Gas by One Half the pressure of that gas will Double.

PS; what I haven't mentioned is the effect of temperature in Boyle's Law but because he didn't mention a change in the Temperature in his example we can simply ignore that aspect in this case. Basically in this simplification we limit the equation to P1V1 = P2V2. If anyone really wants to get Fussy Boyle's Law is fully expressed as PV=nRT.

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Old 07-26-2017, 08:46 PM
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You posts are lacking spelling, content, and fail to ask a valid question.
I smell very well, use old spice and everything.
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Old 07-26-2017, 08:50 PM
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Do you shot these rounds............?
or is this a general question ?

A picture of the weapon would be GREAT !!
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Old 07-26-2017, 10:16 PM
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Am I crazy, lucky, both?
Yes. Why do you ask?
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Old 07-26-2017, 11:16 PM
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You posts are lacking spelling, content, and fail to ask a valid question.
On top of that, he started his post with the word "so". Definite fail.
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Old 07-26-2017, 11:29 PM
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I can't because they don't exist.

Moving to the less imaginary world of .38 S&W special, 9x19, and .357 rem mag, what prompted me to post were several posts that said something similar to "I moved from .38 spl to 9mm because I can shoot a more powerful round in 9mm."

My shelf here has .38 and .357 loaded ammunition comprised of TB, 231, 700x, BE, PP, TG, LS, 2400 under 75, 90, 100, 115, 125, 140, 148, 150, 158, 160, 180 and 195 grain boolits. I have some CSB-1 and Solo1000 and 225 grain 'pencils' I haven't tried yet. I have some 9x19 loaded ammunition of 100, 125, 147, 150 grains over 2400, TG, BE, 231.

In my limited experience with 9x19 (only have a 940 chambered in 9x19, but have identical 40 in .38 and 640 in .357), ole' Boyle was on to something.

Loaded with 150 grain boolits, which seem to take up the equivelent of 7.0 gr of water, my 9x19 has room for 6.3 grains of water under that boolit, my .38 has room for 17 grains and my .357 has room for 20 grains. So using SAAMI standards...

CART capy -7.0 allowable pressure
9x19 13.3 6.3 330 cup/100 +p 393 cup/100
.38spl 24.0 17.0 170 cup/100 +p 200 cup/100
.357 27.0 20.0 450 cup/100

Since the .38 has 2.69 times the space under the boolit, to handle 0.51 times the pressure, I can obviously SAFELY load this particular boolit faster in a .38 than in a 9. I could SAFELY load this particular boolit faster in .38+p than in 9+p. And .357 well, I have 3.17 times the space and can handle 1.14 times the pressure of 9+p, we are talking tall blondes with submachine gun pressure here.

Apples to apples no load I can make for a 940 will beat a load I can make for a 40 let alone a 640.

Your apples may be of a different variety.
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Old 07-26-2017, 11:36 PM
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And...

So
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Old 07-27-2017, 01:14 AM
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Originally Posted by TomkinsSP View Post
I can't because they don't exist.

Moving to the less imaginary world of .38 S&W special, 9x19, and .357 rem mag, what prompted me to post were several posts that said something similar to "I moved from .38 spl to 9mm because I can shoot a more powerful round in 9mm."

My shelf here has .38 and .357 loaded ammunition comprised of TB, 231, 700x, BE, PP, TG, LS, 2400 under 75, 90, 100, 115, 125, 140, 148, 150, 158, 160, 180 and 195 grain boolits. I have some CSB-1 and Solo1000 and 225 grain 'pencils' I haven't tried yet. I have some 9x19 loaded ammunition of 100, 125, 147, 150 grains over 2400, TG, BE, 231.

In my limited experience with 9x19 (only have a 940 chambered in 9x19, but have identical 40 in .38 and 640 in .357), ole' Boyle was on to something.

Loaded with 150 grain boolits, which seem to take up the equivelent of 7.0 gr of water, my 9x19 has room for 6.3 grains of water under that boolit, my .38 has room for 17 grains and my .357 has room for 20 grains. So using SAAMI standards...

CART capy -7.0 allowable pressure
9x19 13.3 6.3 330 cup/100 +p 393 cup/100
.38spl 24.0 17.0 170 cup/100 +p 200 cup/100
.357 27.0 20.0 450 cup/100

Since the .38 has 2.69 times the space under the boolit, to handle 0.51 times the pressure, I can obviously SAFELY load this particular boolit faster in a .38 than in a 9. I could SAFELY load this particular boolit faster in .38+p than in 9+p. And .357 well, I have 3.17 times the space and can handle 1.14 times the pressure of 9+p, we are talking tall blondes with submachine gun pressure here.

Apples to apples no load I can make for a 940 will beat a load I can make for a 40 let alone a 640.

Your apples may be of a different variety.
You are making too many simple assumptions. One thing i have learned in more than 40yrs reloading, pressures are rarely linear, start peaking at diff points depending on bullet wt & volume & burn rate within a given case volume. So you cant take pressures from one totally diff cartridge & extrapolate to another with any degree of accuracy. IT will always be a WAG.
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Old 07-27-2017, 07:46 AM
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Originally Posted by Engineer1911 View Post
Your posts are lacking spelling, content, and fail to ask a valid question.
Fixed it for you

Added an 'r' to you....spelling

And

I don't have my physics book handy, but if I remember correctly
You can divide your imaginary numbers by the imaginary unit (i)
To get real numbers
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Old 07-27-2017, 12:23 PM
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Quote:
scooter123 wrote:
...a near text book example of Boyle's Gas Law. ... in this simplification we limit the equation to P1V1 = P2V2.

If anyone really wants to get Fussy Boyle's Law is fully expressed as PV=nRT.
I have no argument with what you wrote, scooter123. If we ignore Temperature when applying Boyle's Law, then doubling the volume does indeed halve the pressure (or vice versa).

It is also a purely academic result that is meaningless in practice since:
  1. Combustion of the powder is a vigorously exothermal reaction so in this case the change in temperature is a material factor in the application of Boyle's Law,
  2. Combustion does not take place in zero time, and
  3. Once time is brought into the understanding of the problem it ceases to be a linear equation as the rate of combustion of most powders is influenced by both the rate of pressure increase and temperature increase.

Thus, while the understanding of the simplified statement of Boyle's Law by TomkinsSP is correct, the simplified statement is not sufficiently representative of what goes on in a cartridge when it is ignited, so the answer to TomkinsSP's question(s) are:
  • Your simplifications of the underlying theory make it meaningless in practice and applying it to reloaded cartridges will lead you to erroneous and potentially dangerous conclusions, so to proceed along this line would mean you are crazy.
  • Yes, the fact the differences between the theory and practice have so far failed to align in such a way as to damage your guns or maim your person has been sheer luck.
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Old 07-27-2017, 01:39 PM
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Default Don't expect linear relationships.......

One thing you cannot assume in internal ballistics is that changes in variables produce a one to one relationship all through the curve. The powder burns differently in a larger or smaller space, the velocity produced changes the volume of burn area differently. One may burn hotter under those conditions. The curves produced may be similar, but one could be steeper or have a faster rate of climb.

Extrapolation in reloading is risky because of this. If that is all that you have to go on though, make sure that your estimate is conservative.

An example of this is the 9mm case. A .38 bullet is almost the same size but the 9mm case has a fraction of the volume. You can set .38 bullets to any depth you want, but in a 9mm, a slight change of case volume caused by pushing in the bullet a short way can produce drastic rises in pressure.

I haven't looked it up but I would bet that the cartridges you mention have different working pressures, too.
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Old 07-27-2017, 03:11 PM
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You are making too many simple assumptions. One thing i have learned in more than 40yrs reloading, pressures are rarely linear, start peaking at diff points deoending on bullet wt & volume & burn rate within a given case volume. So you cant take pressures from on totally diff cartridge & extrapolate to another with any degree of accuracy.
What I think that I am seeing is: outide of a case (a) the same single base propellant without carbon added as a retardant has a perfectly linear burn rate. (b) Since combustion starts at the surface, doughnuts, small balls, big balls, sticks, little flakes and big flakes burn at different but consistant rates. Inside of a case: (c) full cases burn better because ignition is more consistant (and yes BE is so much less finicky than TB in this regard), (d) pads or discs can keep smaller loadings tight to the touch hole, replicating the ignition pattern of a full case. In ammunition loaded with THE SAME BULLET BUT IN DIFFERENT CASES e) these observations are most pronounced in loadings where the solid propellant is converted to gas within the case, in loads where some burn is in an identical barrel its pretty similar, but loads where some powder burns outside the barrel it is less similar.

While 75% or more of my experience in loading has been with .38 special. I have a fondness for flat based lead bullets, ones I would call wadcutters or semi wadctters. With similar bullets I have found points of convergence in same weight, similar design lead bullets having either exactly or within a few tenths of a grain charges of the same propellant in .44special/.45acp and .357(rifle)/.30-30/7.62x39.
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Old 07-27-2017, 03:45 PM
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Maybe I am not expressing this clearly. I am not suggesting that because I can fit 30.0 grains of Kaboom Powder into a .38 special case I would do so. Nor am I suggesting that I could use my bullet-puller, pop a bullet off of a .38 and dump the powder in a nine case, seat the bullet and... (I bet it would be safe to do the opposite, as the greater volume will result in a lower ignition temperature (for exactly the reasons stated) but that is not my intent or plan either.

What i am doing is trying to optimise rounds for snubbies. This isn't magic, IMHO if you control enough variables, its science. And if not linear well it plots along a common parabolic curve.

I am shooting exactly the same projectile, through an identical barrel (640 and 940 are a tad over 2", 40 a tad under), slugged they are too close for my micrometer to tell the difference. Same powder, same charge (which is limited by those short barrels and my desire not to see a ball of flame, otherwise it would be limited by pressure in 9x19 first), roll crimped in the same die.

Now maybe Tim or somebody had some super-secret non canister powder that can somehow elevate 9x19 over .38, but I don't see it in TB, BE, 251, LS, 700x, TG, 2400, at least with a 150grain wadctter.
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Old 07-27-2017, 04:13 PM
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Them's some very, very confusing posts.... Load data from published sources - USE IT!

Everyone of your posts contains statements that make zero sense.


Re: "Now maybe Tim or somebody had some super-secret non canister powder that can somehow elevate 9x19 over .38, but I don't see it in TB, BE, 251, LS, 700x, TG, 2400, at least with a 150grain wadctter."

Who shoots 150 grn wadcutters in 9mm? What reloading data are you looking at? A quick glance in Lyman #48 has plenty of jacketed 147 grain 9mm loads over 1,000 FPS and 146 grain jacketed bullets in 38 Special top out right around 800 FPS. This is common phenomenon across all bullet weights and designs in both lead and jacketed. There are numerous loads that even use the same powder charge(or within .1/.2 grain) and 9mm always has at least 100 if not 200 FPS advantage. If you can't get 9mm to preform better than 38 Special that is a big problem.

Maybe a more specific question or an actual example of what you are trying to accomplish would help. Posting gibberish and making wild assumptions is impossible to decipher.
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Old 07-27-2017, 05:36 PM
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For the purposes of this discussion I own three smith and wesson J-frame revolvers, a M40 (.38spl) with a 1 13/16" barrel, a M640 (.357mag) and a M940 (9x19) with 2 1/8"barrels. I have slugged all three barrels and they are the same within my micrometers ability to measure. I have filled full lenth sized (but not decapped) fired starline brass with isopropyl alcohol using a syringe. 9x19 holds equivilent of 13.3 grains of water at 77'F, .38 holds 24.1, .357 holds 27.0. I like 100% metplat lead wadcutters, my current favorite is a 150 grain dropped (by Matt of Matt's Bullets in Arkansas) from a H&G 244 mold. I loaded one each into 9x19, .38 and .357 brass (full length sized and decapped, without primer or propellant) and roll crimped each with a Lee die. I then measured the avalible space under the seated bullets, not surprisingly the bullets occupied the same amount of space in each case, leaving space equivelent to 6.3, 17.0 and 20.0 grains of water. (after the alcohol evaporates I fill the primer pocket with caulk and have snap caps). So under this bullet there is 2 and 69/100 times as much space for the propellant to complete its conversion from solid to gas (if this occurs within the case as I desire). The cylinders are the same length, gap is the same, the nine has a slight advantage 5/16" in the cylinder and 5/16" in the longer barrel (if some of the burn occurs after the bullet is released from the case). I specifically do not want a fireball created by unburnt powder leaving the barrel.
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Old 07-27-2017, 05:50 PM
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For the purposes of this discussion I own three smith and wesson J-frame revolvers, a M40 (.38spl) with a 1 13/16" barrel, a M640 (.357mag) and a M940 (9x19) with 2 1/8"barrels. I have slugged all three barrels and they are the same within my micrometers ability to measure. I have filled full lenth sized (but not decapped) fired starline brass with isopropyl alcohol using a syringe. 9x19 holds equivilent of 13.3 grains of water at 77'F, .38 holds 24.1, .357 holds 27.0. I like 100% metplat lead wadcutters, my current favorite is a 150 grain dropped (by Matt of Matt's Bullets in Arkansas) from a H&G 244 mold. I loaded one each into 9x19, .38 and .357 brass (full length sized and decapped, without primer or propellant) and roll crimped each with a Lee die. I then measured the avalible space under the seated bullets, not surprisingly the bullets occupied the same amount of space in each case, leaving space equivelent to 6.3, 17.0 and 20.0 grains of water. (after the alcohol evaporates I fill the primer pocket with caulk and have snap caps). So under this bullet there is 2 and 69/100 times as much space for the propellant to complete its conversion from solid to gas (if this occurs within the case as I desire). The cylinders are the same length, gap is the same, the nine has a slight advantage 5/16" in the cylinder and 5/16" in the longer barrel (if some of the burn occurs after the bullet is released from the case). I specifically do not want a fireball created by unburnt powder leaving the barrel.

What the heck does the above have to do with the Price of Tea in China or anywhere else?

What are you trying to establish? Perhaps follow this guide.

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Old 07-27-2017, 06:24 PM
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Just use powder with a flash suppressant, something like BE 86. Easy answer to a simple question.

I'm not sure what case capacity or rimmed vs rimless cartridges has to do with that question.

Are you seating the 150 grain bullet flush in the 9mm case?

Last edited by reddog81; 07-27-2017 at 06:25 PM.
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Old 07-27-2017, 06:49 PM
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Internal Ballistics


A brief overview without calculus.


In application, use tested load tables, since any estimates done without calculus are far too crude for safety. Even the computer load programs are approximations.
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Old 07-27-2017, 07:43 PM
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Let's use some well known facts and official reloading data to help us with this. First of all, let's talk about the efficiency of smaller cases and bigger bullets, at least in terms of muzzle energy, to show there are more dynamics than just area and pressure, and the false notion that powders only have different burn rates and no other qualities or burn qualities.

A better example than 9mm vs 38 Special would be 44 Magnum vs 44 Special vs 44 Russian. If we take a 246 grain Keith and 7.0 grains Unique and load them in all three cases, we get vastly different pressures with the differences in case space, but do we get the same performance out of each case simply at different pressures? Why, not at all. The 44 Magnum case may have less pressure, but we don't get equal performance, just at that lower pressure. In fact, the little 44 Russian will probably show the greatest performance of the three. There are great dynamics going on. The 44 Magnum may have more power than the other two at equal pressure with the right powder, with a small powder charge the smaller cases are more efficient, and will provide the same muzzle energy with less powder, while the Magnum can only be king with the CORRECT powder loads which have the correct dynamics, and equal or superior pressure.

Let's also consider the advantage of big bullets in handgun reloading, Many bigger bullets reduce the case space of the cartridge, and with good ol Boyle we'd think that bigger bullets that sink deeper and reduce the case space would be universally less powerful. Yet, if we stick to SAAMI pressures and lines, the most powerful handgun loads for cartridge are actually the biggest bullets, or at the very least they are just as powerful as the smallest that take up the least case space. In all reality, if one was to do a lengthy experiment to find the most powerful 38 Special SAAMi pressure load you could make at your bench, 200 grain lead slugs would be at the top or near the top, and 125 and lighter grains would be a blowout. All this, and many heavy bullets in handguns have same/superior muzzle energy than smaller bullets at LESS pressure.

Barrel/bullet resistance, obturation, bullet being swaged in barrel, bullet being cut by rifling, jacket lubricity, cast bullet lubrication, bullet length, how fast he bullet is traveling and its position to the burning powder int he chamber in those precious milliseconds, ect., and our theory on case space gets lost somewhere. Remember, too, relativity in science, powder burn affects heat and pressure which comes back to affect the remaining powder burn, all happening in milliseconds. In some cases limiting the pressure means it cannot use the right powders and achieve the right dynamics to do certain things, and the higher pressure versions of those cartridges can do amazing things because of that limit lift, not only in the advantage of more pressure means more power, but also the ability to use powders at different pressures and their dynamics.

The big boy loads for 38/44 are more pressure wise close to 9mm, and likewise smokes it performance wise. Let's load 9mm Luger down to 38 Special pressures, and we'll get performance barely superior to 380 ACP. But, to simply say pressure is the ONLY factor, and case space is the only other factor, we are missing many important points along the way.
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Old 07-27-2017, 08:03 PM
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My brain immediately forgets any post I read that includes the word "boolits"
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Old 07-27-2017, 08:26 PM
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My brain immediately forgets any post I read that includes the word "boolits"
I gag whenever I see that word. Whisky Tango Foxtrot, do they speak English as a second language?
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Old 07-27-2017, 10:22 PM
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Default They are two different thing...

A bullet is something you buy from a manufacturer, a boolit is something that you make yoursef.

There is loads of published data. COMPARE the tables for the 9mm and the .38 special side by side. They probably use some of the same powdersa nd the weights of bullets are close to each other. This is what I read in the bathroom, so I am very well versed. Some people would think that it reads like a telephone book, but I find it fascinating since I like to experiment. Everything I load doesn't have (or have much) published data like 165 gr plated bullets or 158 gr SWCHP in 9mm.
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Old 07-27-2017, 11:24 PM
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Re: "Now maybe Tim or somebody had some super-secret non canister powder that can somehow elevate 9x19 over .38, but I don't see it in TB, BE, 251, LS, 700x, TG, 2400, at least with a 150grain wadcutter."

Who shoots 150 grn wadcutters in 9mm? What reloading data are you looking at? A quick glance in Lyman #48 has plenty of jacketed 147 grain 9mm loads over 1,000 FPS and 146 grain jacketed bullets in 38 Special top out right around 800 FPS. This is common phenomenon across all bullet weights and designs in both lead and jacketed. There are numerous loads that even use the same powder charge(or within .1/.2 grain) and 9mm always has at least 100 if not 200 FPS advantage. If you can't get 9mm to preform better than 38 Special that is a big problem.
.
Sorry, Tim Saunders runs Buffalo Bore, he has some really nice loads with his "super secret non canister powders". And, sorry to break it to you, every one of his 38 loads is statistically equal or better than an equivalent load using an equivelent bullet in 9 as measured in real guns.

(24K 125 gr FMJ 9 1037 fps in a 3.1" barrel, 20E 125 gr JHP 38 1019 fps in a 3" barrel// 24L 147 gr HCFN 9+p 1089 fps in a 4" barrel, 20H 158 gr SWC 38+p 1167 fps in a 4" barrel //24B 147 grain 9 DOUBLE PLUS P 124 gr FMJ 1296 fps in a 4" barrel, 20B 125 gr JHP 38+p 1258 fps in a 4" barrel)

I would guess higher velocity in 9 is from longer barrels as my Hodgdon loaders guide has higher maximum charges for 38 than 9 in equivalent loadings with equivalent bullets. (700x is the fastest powder I use, it has higher max loadings in 125 lead 4.2 v 3.5 grains, and 147/8 jacketed 3.4 v 2.9 grains// universal is on the slow end, it has max loadings in 125 lead of 4.7 v 4.3, and 147/8 jacketed 3.8 v 3.3).

You can't tell me that a load of 3.8 grains of anything will send the same weight and type of bullet out of the same length and diameter bore SLOWER than 3.3 grains of the same propellant.
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Old 07-27-2017, 11:30 PM
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Just use powder with a flash suppressant, something like BE 86. Easy answer to a simple question.

I'm not sure what case capacity or rimmed vs rimless cartridges has to do with that question.

Are you seating the 150 grain bullet flush in the 9mm case?
It has a crimp groove and a square edged 100% diameter metplat, I roll crimp into the groove with a Lee (or Pettigrew) .38 special die, since its for a M940.
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Old 07-27-2017, 11:41 PM
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Let's also consider the advantage of big bullets in handgun reloading, Many bigger bullets reduce the case space of the cartridge, and with good ol Boyle we'd think that bigger bullets that sink deeper and reduce the case space would be universally less powerful. Yet, if we stick to SAAMI pressures and lines, the most powerful handgun loads for cartridge are actually the biggest bullets, or at the very least they are just as powerful as the smallest that take up the least case space. In all reality, if one was to do a lengthy experiment to find the most powerful 38 Special SAAMi pressure load you could make at your bench, 200 grain lead slugs would be at the top or near the top, and 125 and lighter grains would be a blowout.
My experience mirrors this, worst performance with 125 grain bullets, best with 148 and up. Really nice penetration (wood) in 180 (LRNFP) and 195 (RN) grains, they are considerably slower than the 150 and 160s but go much deeper. I would like to get a hold of some 200 grain bowling pin (RNFP) as I don't care for round noses.
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Old 07-27-2017, 11:44 PM
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A bullet is something you buy from a manufacturer, a boolit is something that you make yoursef.
So when Matt drops them they are boolits, but when I buy them from him they are bullets. I did not know ;-)
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Old 07-28-2017, 02:26 AM
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Default 158 and 165 grain in 9mm....

Data is very scarce.

Power Pistol or Acc #7 gets the highest velocities (except for expensive Vihtavuori) I'm testing these two ballistically because of a theory I'm working on that a 9mm should be able to push a bullet equal to .38 much faster, being 10,000 lb more working pressure. The problem is that w/o testing equipment I can't find out the actual MAX loads, so thus far results have been disappointing for several reasons. The 165 grains that I used were WAY too hard so I found some some soft 158 gr SWCHPs. But I'm having trouble with seating them (not due to cartridge space which is just about enough). If I can get a batch of these made and tested up to the point that I know that they are safe, I may send a heavier loaded batch off to a private lab and get them tested for a true +P load.
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Old 07-28-2017, 07:42 AM
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A lot of this thread is unnecessary drivel, if one switches to a 45 ACP 1911 pistol.
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Old 07-28-2017, 08:35 AM
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A lot of this thread is unnecessary drivel, if one switches to a 45 ACP 1911 pistol.

Only SOME of it is drivel???
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Old 07-28-2017, 10:35 AM
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A lot of this thread is unnecessary drivel, if one switches to a 45 ACP 1911 pistol.
So perhaps you would prefer to discuss convergance points between the .45 acp and .44 s&w special?
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Old 07-28-2017, 10:48 AM
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Sorry, Tim Saunders runs Buffalo Bore, he has some really nice loads with his "super secret non canister powders". And, sorry to break it to you, every one of his 38 loads is statistically equal or better than an equivalent load using an equivelent bullet in 9 as measured in real guns.
This whole thread you been fixated on using the same powder and same charge in different cartridges and now your going to bring up Buffalo Bore's +P+ 38 Special loads... That makes no sense. What makes you think Buffalo Bore uses similar powders much less anything close to the same charges in those rounds?

Also you have to realize a 3" revolver has a huge velocity advantage over a 3" barreled pistol just by the nature of the way barrel length is measured on these different platforms.

FWIW my Lyman manual shows 4.8 grains of HS-6 pushing a 147 grain jacketed bullet at 866 FPS in 9mm and shows 5.6 grains of the same powder pushing a 140 grain jacketed bullet to 526 FPS and 6.2 grains pushing a 146 grain jacketed bullet to 691 FPS. According to Lyman a 4" universal receiver was used - this is an actual apples to apples comparison. I knew off the top of my head if you looked at the slowest powder for the heaviest 9mm bullet this would be the case.
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Old 07-28-2017, 04:36 PM
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Revolvers have barrel cylinder gaps that lose gas pressure, semi-auto pistols are solid from breech to muzzle.
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Old 07-28-2017, 04:45 PM
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So perhaps you would prefer to discuss convergance points between the .45 acp and .44 s&w special?
I'm having a tough time connecting the dots between an NRA member, a police officer, and your "convergence points" . The missing link appears to be common sense. Your intuition about velocity between different calibers, different bullets, and different firearms using same / different powders; at best is pointless and totally lacking in any merit for hosting a discussion.
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Old 07-28-2017, 07:23 PM
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Maybe I am not expressing this clearly. I am not suggesting that because I can fit 30.0 grains of Kaboom Powder into a .38 special case I would do so. Nor am I suggesting that I could use my bullet-puller, pop a bullet off of a .38 and dump the powder in a nine case, seat the bullet and... (I bet it would be safe to do the opposite, as the greater volume will result in a lower ignition temperature (for exactly the reasons stated) but that is not my intent or plan either.

What i am doing is trying to optimise rounds for snubbies. This isn't magic, IMHO if you control enough variables, its science. And if not linear well it plots along a common parabolic curve.
Well if your whole intent is to optimize (that's with a z not a s) 38 special loads, then why not just state that without all the other "stuff"?

It's not reinventing the wheel. No need to revisit Calculus, Chemistry and Physics class. It's all been done before.
But I suppose there is the Baffle with BS or is that Brilliance?

The FBI load and the Treasury load have been around for a long time, so pick your bullet weight, powder and go for it.

Heavy bullet slower, lighter bullet faster. With a snub nose 2"you can only get so much velocity no matter what!

A "sticky" thread

There are some new powders around now, so a flash suppressant is available.

Duplicating Buffalo Bore FBI Load
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Old 07-28-2017, 10:14 PM
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I'm having a tough time connecting the dots between an NRA member, a police officer, and your "convergence points" . The missing link appears to be common sense. Your intuition about velocity between different calibers, different bullets, and different firearms using same / different powders; at best is pointless and totally lacking in any merit for hosting a discussion.
Sorry to be so confusing. I grew up in TriBeCa and the Upper East Side. I worked the streets of The City for 23 years. Retired and moved to the wife's hometown, now we own 60+ acres on the eastern side of the American Great Lake, and I love it. I can walk three steps out my back door and be Hickock .45 (see youtube). I play around most of the time, optimizing the loading of my snubbies being a fun if not efficiect use of my time. No spellcheck on the phone, and BA in sociology, MA in criminal science, so sorry for the misspellings.
I started this thread in the hope that those with more experience than I would help fill in the gaps of my observations while reloading mostly in .38 s&w special over the last 14-15 years. I mostly shoot my 2 inchers, figure fireballs mean too much propellant, and try to eliminate same. Using pa-in-laws experience reloading (especially black powder and pyrodex in metalic cartridges) and chronograph I have developed less recoil, less noise, less fireball loads that equal the commercial offerings in fps. I am NRA because there is a massive opposition to common sense and the guarantees provided by the founders. Sorry to waste your time.
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Old 07-28-2017, 11:39 PM
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Well if your whole intent is to optimize (that's with a z not a s) 38 special loads, then why not just state that without all the other "stuff"?

It's not reinventing the wheel. No need to revisit Calculus, Chemistry and Physics class. It's all been done before.
But I suppose there is the Baffle with BS or is that Brilliance?

The FBI load and the Treasury load have been around for a long time, so pick your bullet weight, powder and go for it.

Heavy bullet slower, lighter bullet faster. With a snub nose 2"you can only get so much velocity no matter what!

A "sticky" thread

There are some new powders around now, so a flash suppressant is available.

Duplicating Buffalo Bore FBI Load
Thank you for the interesting link.
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Old 07-29-2017, 12:02 AM
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Also you have to realize a 3" revolver has a huge velocity advantage over a 3" barreled pistol just by the nature of the way barrel length is measured on these different platforms.
Huge? for M40 v M940 3/8 inch difference between bullet base and muzzle. For M640 v M940 7/16 inch. HUUUUUUUUGE. Oh, and 9x19 "benefits" from longer barrel, just shows (cue Annie Oakley to sing...) "anything 9 can do 38 can do do better..."
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Old 07-29-2017, 12:09 AM
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Default That's another reason....

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Revolvers have barrel cylinder gaps that lose gas pressure, semi-auto pistols are solid from breech to muzzle.
That's another reason why 9mm should easily outperform .38 even with heavy bullets. Add about 50 fps for not having a B/C gap.

Ok, I've heard all of the negatives on the main thread on the subject of heavy 9mm bullets. Let's just say if I bought a .45 I would have to think up something else to experiment with.
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