Originally Posted by Al W. View Post
Hi,
Wanted to see what the collective mind thought about this.
I've been target shooting with a model 14 using 148gr WC and a 2.7 gr charge of Bullseye. Real old school , works great for my S&W.
(I just had a look at the data on the Alliant site and their suggested 9mm charge is about 1059 fps with a 4.4 gr charge, seems kinda high for a target load, especially with my LRN bullets.) Why so high ?
When I went to my data book it really did not have data on the 148 WC in a target load. Believe it or else.
So I'm enjoying the results with the Bullseye and my 38sp. and was wondering what I could do with a 9mm
I've got 1000, 125gr LRN and some brass and a few pounds of Bullseye.
What do you think the ideal charge for targets would be.
I ask this knowing there is no one perfect load, I just need a range here.
Looking forward to plowing through some 9mm with my DP 550.

I believe everything on the Alliant site is a max load. They say that somewhere but can't remember where. Drop their load data 10% and start there. I've never reached their max load when I started 10% below their published load data.

I used up all of my Bullseye about a year ago and never got around to using it for 9 mm. Looking at their site it looks like 4.4gr/124 is max. I would start at 4 gr and work up.

Looking at the MV it doesn't appear that Bullseye is the best choice. But if you are like me you use what you have. I load 9 mm with American Select and it works fine. Actually it works for 38 spl and 45 acp too.

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That's just somebody talkin.

Out of curiosity I pulled apart Aguila FMJ 115. They have something close to 5gr of "something" in there. I might try the American Select if only to have more powder around.

As was pointed out in your last post, a semi-auto requires a balance between the powder charge and recoil spring to work properly.
Just putting a light load in a stock 9mm pistol causes short stroking, failure to lock back, and possibly jamming.
My S&W 9mms will run with stock springs with a power factor (PF) of 135 or more (PF is momentum in odd units. multiply MV in fps times bullet wt in grains divided by 1000) For 125gr bullets, MV of 1080 gives PF of 135. For lower PF, a weaker recoil spring is required for proper functioning. The exact spring needed depends on the specific gun and grip of the shooter, also.

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Science plus Art

Anwer to your earlier post:
I shoot these in revolvers and semis.
LRN 124 Bullseye GR 3.8 LO 1081 HI 1110 AVG 1100 ES 28 SD 8.94

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-jwk-
US Army '72-'95

My everyday 9mm load is 124 gr coated bullet and 4.1 gr Win 231. This load chronos in a variety of Glocks and M&Ps at 1100 fps. You could go lower but may well run into malfunctions if the slide doesn't fully cycle.

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Bob.
SWCA 1821

I've been experimenting with many different loads using W231 and 125g LRN (.355) and 124g JRN (.355) bullets for my Colt 9mm Competition pistol. 4.2g W231 with the 124g JRN and 4.0g W231 with the 125g LRN bullets. All were seated to a COAL of 1.135". Accuracy to 20 yards is decent but certainly not bullseye quality.

I don't use BE, but I use other fast burners to produce 9mm minor loads of 147gr @ 900fps +/-. Just about any gun will run that w/o a spring change. I just ran a test of 5 diff fast powders, all using 145gr RN from Bayou. All produce about 910fps+ using 3.2gr. OAL was 1.140". So I would start my BE at 3.2gr, see what functioning & accuracy is like & work it up as needed.
WST
VV320
IMR Red
Alliant RD
Ramshot Comp

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NRA Cert. Inst. IDPA CSO

Routinely shot between 1" and 1.5" groups at 50 yards from my Sams Wadcutter gun.

SAMS “CENTERFIRE/WADCUTTER” LOAD
115 gr. Hornady XTP
5.0 gr. N330 Powder or N340 Powder
Starline Brass
Remington 5 ½ Primer
O.A.L. = 1.085”
.377” Taper crimp at case mouth

 Bell case mouth Just Enough to start bullet
 Normal seating w/.377 taper crimp at case mouth
 You may want to adjust seating depth for optimum performance
 Adjust powder charge between 4.8 – 5.0 gr for optimum performance

I've NEVER found a better load.

Keith

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Keith Herrington

I've tried different powders for my 9MM loads and always come back to BE. I shoot Action Pistol in the metallic and production classes. The Range Officer likes 124 JHP with 4.0 grains of BE while the S&W M&Ps, 1.0 and 2.0, like the 115 round nose with 4.2 grains of BE. You have to experiment with each gun and load; it takes a while.

for my own 9s a few years ago, anything under about 985 was producing too many slide cycling errors;

while I don't call them my 'target loads' there's a handful of powders I've found very reliable at 1025-1050 that work well enough for me to think I'm 'on target'.

And old Hi Power really likes the cast 147s while the others prefer 115 or 124 plated.

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Dum vivimus Vivamas

I agree with what a couple others mentioned - 4.0 Bullseye. Personally I go a little lighter sometimes, but 4.0 should be about perfect for your application. 4.0 should be high enough to cycle the action in the majority of guns. Go much lighter and you'll start to wonder if your shooting a .380.

A 147 grain SWC with a light charge of AA #7. Gentle recoil and excellent accuracy. I can't recall exactly what the velocity was now, but the pistol functioned no problem.

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"He was kinda funny lookin'"

Revolver loads are not that big a deal........... just need to go bang.

Now the Auto Pistol is a whole new ball game.
The companies need to have a load that has enough energy to work all pistols
no mater if a short barrel or a long 5-6" heavy slide model.

I just got back today from testing light loads for a C9 and a M9 5".
A 115gr plated at 1.14" OAL with 3.6g of Bullseye cycled the 5"
A load of w231 with the same set up, failed to feed and eject.
Yet this w231 load in my C9 feed and ejected.

A 147g Speer TMJ at a OAL of 1.14" with 3.2g of Bullseye cycled
but this same set up with 4.4g of HS6 had a failure to feed.
Hodgdon has this load down to 4.1 grs ........................

The smoothness of an action and the recoil spring have a lot to
do with how your loads are going to feed and eject.
One reason why you need to test your ammo per a weapon.

Tight groups.

Asking people on the internet to suggest loads is not proper load development.

First, you have no idea whether I'm a safe and careful reloader or someone who believes maximum loads are artificially reduced because of "the lawyers" and will get you blown up. For that matter, I could just be a sadist that wants you to be known as "lefty".

Second, as has already been said, the load that strikes the proper balance in my gun won't necessarily do the same in yours.

Your post references bullets you had been using in 38 special. Keep in mind that 9mm bullets are nominal 0.355 inch in diameter with the associated cast bullets bring 0.356 while in 38 Special/357 Magnum, the bullets run 0.357 and 0.358, respectively. If you are using 0.358 bullets in 9mm Luger, you will need to be very careful because they will likely be oversize for the barrel and will result in increased pressure.

Go to the Alliant website (or other published source), put in your bullet weight and see what they specify as the maximum load. Reduce that figure by 10% (rounding down) and start there watching for function, accuracy and pressure signs, increasing in increments of 0.1 or 0.2 grains each time until you get a load that operates the gun reliably and gives you good accuracy.

I have just recently started using Auto comp for my 9mm target loads. I will be using them in the service division of PPC. I will run them thru my MP 9 pro. The load I have come down to is 4.8 gr auto comp W/ 115 gr bullet. So far this load has cycled my M&P PRO with minimum recoil.

Good luck and happy shooting!

I load my 9mm range ammo with 4.5 grains of SR7625 and it's a powder puff that functions perfectly in my Ruger LC9S and SR1911-9mm. Unfortunately it was discontinued a few years back but experiments with Vihtavouri 3N37 show some real promise. Been using 3N37 in my 38 special loads for years and while it is rather expensive it's not at all position sensitive and works quite well with lower energy charge levels.

You may also want to give Accurate #2 or #5 a try. While I've never used #2 I've been using #5 for years for 45 ACP and reduced energy 357 Magnums and it is a great metering and clean shooting powder. BTW, by reduced energy 357 Magnums I mean 900-950 fps with a 158 grain bullet out of my 2 1/2 inch model 19. I came up with this particular load specifically to insure I won't ever harm the forcing cone in my model 19 and it's a load I can shoot all day long and never get tired.

I load a 125 gr. Coated bullet with 3.7 gr. TiteGroup. Great load; it's what I have stuck with.

For 9x19:
If you can get a load that will consistently shoot <2" at 25 yards, you are doing well. To do that at 50 yards, you'll almost certainly need a custom gun/work.
So far, in MY guns, AA5 and faster powders are not accurate—not for a single group and not consistently over several groups.
Power Pistol has been the most consistently accurate, and that is really only <3" at 25 yards, with Silhouette being second best.
115gn JHPs are the bullets of choice, though I do like the Zero 121gn 38 Super JHP. I wouldn't even show up to match with any of my 9x19s, though. My 9x21s and .38 supers shoot "rings" around any of my 9x19s, even with custom barrel and fitting.
Really wish EVERY post on accuracy would report what they are actually getting and what they are using them for. Good enough for action pistol is not good enough for Bullseye and good enough for 25 yards is not good enough for 50 yards.

As a parting note;

I don't load lead in the 9mm any more but I did do 125 coated, recently
in my C9 3.5" 9mm pistol.

as usual use at your own risk.......

125gr LRN coated .356 dia. oal 1.12" ...... 3.8 gr. Bullseye at 938fps.
125gr LRN coated .356 dia. oal 1.06" ...... 4.2 gr Bullseye at 1046fps.

Make sure you know what the + and - OAL of your bullet is per the company
before you start loading, since they may be different.

Stay safe.

Jfwiw, good bullets are far more important than a given powder. Nothing makes a poor bullet shoot well.

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NRA Cert. Inst. IDPA CSO

Many don't cast bullets and have no interest in it, but I've been shooting my own in the 9mm for more than twenty-five years, always in search of an accurate load that won't lead a bore.

Best load so far has been with a 150 grain roundnose bullet cast of wheelweight alloy and sized to .358". The mould is an obsolete .38 Special design from Lyman, #358212. I use 3 grains Bullseye powder. Don't have access to my notes at the moment, but I think the muzzle velocity is around 850-875 fps. This load functions flawlessly in a Beretta, a Sig 226, and a Walther P4. I seat to a max. OAL and lightly taper crimp with a Redding die.

I generally shoot offhand with one hand at 25 yards and don't remember whether or not I've benchrested this load, but it's quite accurate. I've tried at least a dozen bullets in the 9mm over the years. I'm sure there are other bullets that will work as well as mine, just be sure to use the largest diameter bullet that will easily chamber.

I cast my own;125gr Saeco TC.I load them on top of 4.0gr HP38/W231.As of now,it cycled through a Sig P220,a S&W 539 and a CZ Shadow P01 without changing springs.Accuracy is average in the Sig and very good in the 2 others.
I shoot offhand, single hand and tag a load accurate when they nest 10 rds in a 4'' circle at 20yds.
Maybe I should someday benchrest these(and other loads)but our range doesn't offer the facilities(read solid table set in concrete).
Qc

Sort of reviving this post:
I went with the 115 FMJ over 4gr BE for a pistol caliber carbine I was shooting.
I stuck with a rather short OAL . and that functioned well for that firearm which is a Marlin 9.
No lead for that microgroove barrel ! FMJ only.
Any way I picked up a DW Pointman 9 and have been working up a load for that .
I would have picked up a S&W 952 If I could find one I could afford.
I've been steered to HAP 115 by a master shooter at my range.
He likes , HAP 115, over a 5 gr charge of Power Pistol set to an OAL of 1.142.
As I don't have any PP yet I've been using BE at between 4.6 -4.7 gr and getting pretty good results . Not perfect, but good.
Any thoughts on this OAL ?
I have seen this long length cited several times by bullseye shooters as a go to length , I suppose to offset the high charge .
Its well within the max length so it operates well , but I'm still not getting the results I want.
My master shooter pal likes the bullet to leave the barrel at high velocity, helps to eliminate recoil as a follow through problem.

1)Set a goal...most accurate is a good one; it's what you'll be testing for. For an auto, reliable functioning is a given. If you get super accuracy having to clear a jam after every shot, odds are you can cure that with more powder. In the event that accuracy suffers with even a slight increase in charge, a lighter spring will be an option if you absolutely want to shoot that load.

2)Pick 2 bullets to compare...any brand, any type, any weight, for whatever reason; it's pretty, it's cheap, you made it yourself, whatever.

3) Pick 2 or 3 powders from those you have, those you might be willing to try, or those the mailman suggested.

4) For the two bullets you've chosen, determine the maximum OAL for EACH one in YOUR gun...10-15 thou off the rifling is good. Provided it feeds fine from your magazines, there will likely never be a reason to change it in YOUR gun.

a) Seat a bullet in a case with no primer ... leave it intentionally just a little long. Apply a gentle taper crimp, just enough to iron out the flare at the mouth. Remove your barrel and try a "plunk test". Starting with a too-long round so it won't chamber all the way. Seat it deeper by 5-10 thou and try again. Sneak up (down) on the length where the cartridge "plunks" into the chamber with no assistance. RECORD that OAL for THAT bullet in cartridge (a).

b) make a dummy round (b) about 20 thou longer than the (a) cartridge. Re -assemble the gun, see that both (a) and (b) will fit in the magazine. Chamber (a) from the mag with full force. Extract (easy?) and verify that the OAL has not changed... if it "plunked" as it should have, it won't. Chamber (b) and extract and see that the OAL is shorter...the bullet hit the rifling and was seated deeper. Compare the OAL to (a). Re-chamber (b) and see if the OAL is further reduced.

From these comparisons you should be able to select an OAL for each cartridge that you're confident will put the bullet 10-15 thou off the rifling. That was tedious, but now it's DONE ... the OAL bear is dead.

5) Peruse all the available data and pick a powder charge comfortably (5-10%) below max. Load 10 rounds of each combo. Two bullets x 3 powders = 6 loads, 60 rounds. Shoot 5 shots of each load on 6 different bulls. Use 6 clean bulls and shoot all 5 again in the same order, 1 thru 6. Overlay your two 5-sot targets to see a 10-shot composite.

Doing this, 5 versus 10-shot groups, duplicate side-by-side comparisons on the same day under the same conditions randomizes the results and minimizes systematic error. The more data points the better. Good results are seldom accidental; bad results sometimes are. Better to rule in a good result that you can't repeat than to wrongly rule out a combo prematurely.

The best one or two loads, though maybe still not ideal, will establish your benchmark. Load it/them exactly again to be included in your next round of testing. Maybe one will survive repeat testing or maybe a new front-runner will emerge from the next batch. Eventually, one recipe will prove to be repeatedly your go-to load.

I tend to rule out bullets first...if I can't make it shoot with the powders I'm interested in, I don't buy it again. With a half-dozen 1-lb jars of powders known to be useful for a given cartridge I can be set for many months of testing in search of the ideal load.

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Carry.."hope" isn't a strategy

Either you misunderstood your master shooter or he has no idea what he is talking about. High vel is not what determins recoil, it is bullet wt. if anything, higher vel bullets will show more recoil. I do not know a single master class shooter in idpa or uspsa shooting high vel light bullets to minimze recoil. All are shooting low vel, heavy bullets to minimze flip &/or torque. Think about how much more torque is involved going from say 900fps to 1200fps in a 1-14 twist. It is a lot more rpm, a lot more torque to make the same power factor.

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NRA Cert. Inst. IDPA CSO

[QUOTE=fredj338;139850900]Either you misunderstood your master shooter or he has no idea what he is talking about.

More likely that I misunderstood him.
But he wasn't quantifying recoil at all, his statement was more like ," with a 9mm semi auto you want high velocity for maximum accuracy. He wants the projectile to leave the barrel quickly. He's not trying to decrease recoil or comment on weight of projectile visa vie recoil. He just had his formula which he had good results from.
115 HAP, 5 gr Power Pistol and 1.142 OAL
It works for him.
He has the scores and ratings to prove it .
I'll going to check my DW barrel and see if his OAL works for me.
I have checked for changes in OAL after chambering and there is none.

Perhaps I misstated his comment. He was not in his specific comment , concerned with recoil , he was interested in velocity. He wanted the projectile to leave the barrel ASAP.

Quote

I tend to rule out bullets first...if I can't make it shoot with the powders I'm interested in, I don't buy it again. With a half-dozen 1-lb jars of powders known to be useful for a given cartridge I can be set for many months of testing in search of the ideal load.[/QUOTE]

Thus far I've been using BE. I have some Spot Pistol and Power Pistol to try.
My guy is using PP at 5gr.
I like your testing approach.

I've been testing 9mm's for several weeks now. I've worked with a dozen bullets and over a dozen powders. FWIW, Power Pistol and AutoComp are most consistently my frontrunners for accuracy.

In order of generally increasing accuracy, as in moving from 3" 10-shot groups toward 1" groups at 50 ft from a rest, I've found...

1) 115RN plated bullets, 3-4"

2) 2x 115RN jacketed (slightly better) @ 3"

3) 2x 115JHP, conventional shape (significant improvement over 1&2),2"

4) 2x 115JHP, truncated cone shape (a bit better than 3), 1.5-1.75"

5) 125HAP and 124JHP, both truncated, hovering around 1-1.5", that usually means 7-8 rounds in a 1" hole. I probably can't shoot well enuff to distinguish first and second place results @ 50ft. Once I reach this level of precision I compare these best loads @ 35yd where I engage the furthest steel challenge target. I'm seeking maximum accuracy with the wimpiest recoil, no power factor is required but I'm getting the accuracy to survive down to PF ~ 106, Reliable functioning in a 5" Colt Gold Cup with a 10lb spring.

A trend that coincides with the increasing accuracy is the increasing length of bearing surface....even in the same weight. I'm sticking with the 124's but I've seen the 135 plated bullets shoot lights-out in a compact and sub-compact, as compared to various 115's.

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Carry.."hope" isn't a strategy

[quote=Al W.;139851017]Well sorry, that is poop too. Some of the most accurate pistols made are low vel 1911 45 target guns & low vel 38sp revos, 700-800fps. No, vel has little to do with accuracy either, as long as the bullet has enough vel to stabilize. His shooting ability does not mean he understands anything about why his ammo shoots as it does. His PP load may work fine for him, maybe he is shooting a compensated pistol. Compo guns want high muzzle blast for best results with the comp. We are talking totally diff things here.

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NRA Cert. Inst. IDPA CSO

[quote=fredj338;139851170]Thats as it may be . Poop though it may be. Thats what the man said. He's shooting a custom gun. So yeah, I suppose he's got it dialed in. For what thats worth !

I've shot LRN, Plated RN, FMJRN, and HAP in this gun so far.
The HAP has been the best with my loads , so far.
Factory FMJ has done better than my hand loads, but I'm a novice so ? Thats the learning curve.
I'm having fun.
And thats the point !

In my C9 3.5" with a 125gr lead coated bullet with Bullseye I got;

1.12" OAL: a low of 938fps

1.06" OAL: 1046 to a high of 1115fps........
with dia. of .356"

I do not have any Sport or Power Pistol but some HS-6
got the 125gr up to 1173fps with a OAL of 1.06"

945 to 1015fps was the accuracy zone in this pistol.
Good luck.

Bullseye in my 9s I've never had success with(Ruger P85 and Blackhawk convertible,Sig P226 and P220,S&W 539 and CZ Shadow 01).
With Unique,a little more so but only when it reached the upper end of pressure.
HP38/W231 is the powder I use in my 9s with very good results;no jam and target accurate(stays in the black no rest single hand at 20 yds).
Depending on what your gun likes start at 4.0gr and work up.Unlike the 45acp or .38spl,the 9 operates at a rather high mean pressure.The fact that it came out in 1902 and was/is operating in the 30K PSI area makes it,I guess the first almost ''magnum''(american designation)handgun.But I think in those years they were calling it ''Express''(british designation) instead.
Qc

What bullet are you using with your W231 recipe?

148 gr SWCs with a load light but able to operate reliably. You can use a target powder like Titegroup, but I had really good results with a Acc #7 loaded minimum or below (AS LONG AS YOU ARE CAREFUL NOT TO STICK A BULLET IN THE BARREL) If the bullet has any chance of sticking or not working the action, the charge is way too low. I have a theory that a bullet that comes nowhere close to sonic speed would be most accurate.

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"He was kinda funny lookin'"