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Old 08-12-2017, 01:41 PM
oddshooter oddshooter is offline
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Hodgdon 38 & 357 same max load 4.2? Hodgdon 38 & 357 same max load 4.2? Hodgdon 38 & 357 same max load 4.2? Hodgdon 38 & 357 same max load 4.2? Hodgdon 38 & 357 same max load 4.2?  
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Default Hodgdon 38 & 357 same max load 4.2?

Disclaimer: Don't do this ! Stay within published data !

However,
Hodgdon Data Center lists both 38spl and 357mag with the same Trail Boss max. 4.2g for a 158g LSWC.

That doesn't seem possible as they case volume is different between the two.

Trail Boss can be loaded by volume as well as weight.

Individuals' testing of Trail Boss has shown heavier weight loads doing fine.

Has anyone seen any pressure numbers for Trail Boss with above 4.2g loads ?


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Last edited by oddshooter; 08-12-2017 at 02:39 PM.
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Old 08-12-2017, 02:01 PM
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Hodgdon 38 & 357 same max load 4.2? Hodgdon 38 & 357 same max load 4.2? Hodgdon 38 & 357 same max load 4.2? Hodgdon 38 & 357 same max load 4.2? Hodgdon 38 & 357 same max load 4.2?  
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All published "maximum" loads don't necessarily relate to pressure or safety!

In this case it is to keep velocity, and consequently leading, down to reasonable levels. While there will be a difference in velocity between .38 and .357 with the same load it really won't be that significant with most faster burning rate propellants.

Why are you wasting time and money loading Trail Boss in these calibers? There are many other propellants far better suited, and more economical, than TB.
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Old 08-12-2017, 02:15 PM
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Hodgdon 38 & 357 same max load 4.2? Hodgdon 38 & 357 same max load 4.2? Hodgdon 38 & 357 same max load 4.2? Hodgdon 38 & 357 same max load 4.2? Hodgdon 38 & 357 same max load 4.2?  
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My bet is that it is a typo.

The website guy was reading the wrong info when he created one of the two pages.

While adhering to published is a great idea, if something looks wrong to you then it needs to be questioned.

Published data does have typos from time to time. After all the editors are only Human
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Old 08-12-2017, 02:31 PM
oddshooter oddshooter is offline
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Hodgdon 38 & 357 same max load 4.2? Hodgdon 38 & 357 same max load 4.2? Hodgdon 38 & 357 same max load 4.2? Hodgdon 38 & 357 same max load 4.2? Hodgdon 38 & 357 same max load 4.2?  
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Ok,

Alk,
How did you arrive at your comment, "keep velocity, and consequently leading, down"

There are many reasons for leading. I am unaware of data load tables being used for that purpose. An example from a manual would be terrific.
I have only read that max was used to indicate overpressure loads. Perhaps you could supply me with confirmation sources other than my own manuals?

It seems that neither of you guys like Trail Boss and don't believe it should be used in 357magnum. One criteria given was price. I always thought selecting a powder depended on what you were trying to achieve.

I really wasn't so much interested in shooters' opinions on their favorite powders, as much as believing Hodgdon may have been mistaken on one of those two max loads for Trail Boss.
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Old 08-12-2017, 02:34 PM
oddshooter oddshooter is offline
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Hodgdon 38 & 357 same max load 4.2? Hodgdon 38 & 357 same max load 4.2? Hodgdon 38 & 357 same max load 4.2? Hodgdon 38 & 357 same max load 4.2? Hodgdon 38 & 357 same max load 4.2?  
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Colt SAA,

Thanks much. Your comment mirrors my own thinking. It just doesn't seem logical.
It also does not match with IMR's original volume calculation suggestions.
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Old 08-12-2017, 07:34 PM
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Nevada Ed Nevada Ed is offline
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Hodgdon 38 & 357 same max load 4.2? Hodgdon 38 & 357 same max load 4.2? Hodgdon 38 & 357 same max load 4.2? Hodgdon 38 & 357 same max load 4.2? Hodgdon 38 & 357 same max load 4.2?  
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"Why are you wasting time and money loading Trail Boss in these calibers?" quote.........

Maybe I use Trail Boss in my 357 Magnum with magnum cases
with a lead 158gr swc with a OAL of 1.59" since it............

gets better accuracy than any Bullseye, Red Dot. Green Dot or w231
for all the loads that I have tested for light target loads out of my two 6" revolvers.

It is also better than a lot of powders in my J frame 38 snub nose, with the 148 and 158 gr lead bullets.

In my last test it kicked the new powder, BE-86's butt, with
a lead 148 BBwc in starting and full charges.

I use any powder that is accurate..........
you worry about cost ?


Last edited by Nevada Ed; 08-12-2017 at 07:48 PM.
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Old 08-12-2017, 08:23 PM
reddog81 reddog81 is offline
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Hodgdon 38 & 357 same max load 4.2? Hodgdon 38 & 357 same max load 4.2? Hodgdon 38 & 357 same max load 4.2? Hodgdon 38 & 357 same max load 4.2? Hodgdon 38 & 357 same max load 4.2?  
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That data doesn't make sense but it's what's out there.

Lots of times lead bullet data is kept well below max pressures for a cartridge, but using the same load data for .38 and .357 is just odd. For some reason Hodgdon to take the easy way out and use the exact same data for the 2 cartridges even though the pressure will be even less using a .357 case. I'd guess 4.2 TB is close enough to the max you can fit behind the bullet using this powder and that adding more just doesn't make much of a difference with either caliber.

I've heard you can't get enough Trail Boss into a case to cause pressure problems. Once you start compressing it it becomes erratic, not dangerous, just erractic. This was from someone who had supposedly talked with Hodgdons reloading technicians. However that could be completely wrong for all I know.
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Old 08-13-2017, 01:48 PM
oddshooter oddshooter is offline
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Hodgdon 38 & 357 same max load 4.2? Hodgdon 38 & 357 same max load 4.2? Hodgdon 38 & 357 same max load 4.2? Hodgdon 38 & 357 same max load 4.2? Hodgdon 38 & 357 same max load 4.2?  
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Nevada Ed has hit it right on the nose.
I too selected Trail Boss because of its accuracy.

I, like Nevada Ed, have tested pretty extensively with multiple powders and multiple bullets for my favorite caliber, 357magnum. For me, the Trail Boss was clearly the accuracy winner in loads under 900fps.

I have never attempted to use TB to get to higher velocities. I have recipes for 4227, H110/296 that do that beautifully.

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PS I'm calling Hodgdon monday morning with this question.
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Old 08-14-2017, 01:09 PM
oddshooter oddshooter is offline
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Hodgdon 38 & 357 same max load 4.2? Hodgdon 38 & 357 same max load 4.2? Hodgdon 38 & 357 same max load 4.2? Hodgdon 38 & 357 same max load 4.2? Hodgdon 38 & 357 same max load 4.2?  
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Monday morning and I discovered Hodgdon doesn't publish a support number, only mail submission.

I got a Hodgdon reply quickly:

"These are not max loads and they were intentionally kept down in velocity and pressure for Cowboy Action loads."

Looks like Alk had it right in post 2. All max loads are not max loads. I wish they would label the load tables better.
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Old 08-15-2017, 06:16 AM
Forrest r Forrest r is offline
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I've always viewed the 4.2gr/tb/38spl vs 357 data as a typo. I shoot/load a lot of cowboy action loads (plinking) and the hodgdon data doesn't make since.

38spl 158gr lswc 4.2gr of tb 804fps (7.7" bbl) 13,700cup
357mag 158gr lswc 4.2gr of tb 865fps (10" bbl) 20,400cup

more case volume with the 357 case but 33% more pressure for the same load???? 20,400cup vs 13,700cup

I shoot a lot of low velocity loads in mag calibers and tend to use powders like these. They have excellent case fill for their small loads.


Sometimes it's good to go to the range and run several hundred plinking rounds thru the magnums simply enjoying the day shooting reactive targets.
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Old 08-15-2017, 09:53 AM
oddshooter oddshooter is offline
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Hodgdon 38 & 357 same max load 4.2? Hodgdon 38 & 357 same max load 4.2? Hodgdon 38 & 357 same max load 4.2? Hodgdon 38 & 357 same max load 4.2? Hodgdon 38 & 357 same max load 4.2?  
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Hey Forrest,

Great catch on that pressure between the two. I missed that. The 38spl with the smaller case size, should have been more pressure.

I will try Hodgdon again on the pressure numbers.
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Old 08-15-2017, 01:04 PM
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Hodgdon 38 & 357 same max load 4.2? Hodgdon 38 & 357 same max load 4.2? Hodgdon 38 & 357 same max load 4.2? Hodgdon 38 & 357 same max load 4.2? Hodgdon 38 & 357 same max load 4.2?  
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Another powder with very similar data for .38 and .357 is Vih't N32C. Another powder targeted for cowboy shooting. Max velocity of revolver is 1000 fps, so maximum data listed shows ~1000fps velocity.
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Old 08-15-2017, 02:35 PM
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Hodgdon 38 & 357 same max load 4.2? Hodgdon 38 & 357 same max load 4.2? Hodgdon 38 & 357 same max load 4.2? Hodgdon 38 & 357 same max load 4.2? Hodgdon 38 & 357 same max load 4.2?  
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Start loads are also different. 2.7 versus 3.2.
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Old 08-15-2017, 06:43 PM
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Hodgdon 38 & 357 same max load 4.2? Hodgdon 38 & 357 same max load 4.2? Hodgdon 38 & 357 same max load 4.2? Hodgdon 38 & 357 same max load 4.2? Hodgdon 38 & 357 same max load 4.2?  
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I looked up the Trail Boss load for 38 Spl. & .357 in my Lee Reloading Manual.. It shows a max. load of 4.2 for both the 38 & 357 with 158 gr. lead bullet.

804 fps @ 13700 psi for the 38. And 865 fps @ 15867 psi for the .357. ??

I really don't have a dog in the fight. I don't use Trail Boss and I don't really care for, or use, the Lee Reloading Manual..
But it was the only manual I have that had the Trail Boss load in it for the 38 & 357.
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Old 08-24-2017, 01:25 PM
oddshooter oddshooter is offline
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Hodgdon 38 & 357 same max load 4.2? Hodgdon 38 & 357 same max load 4.2? Hodgdon 38 & 357 same max load 4.2? Hodgdon 38 & 357 same max load 4.2? Hodgdon 38 & 357 same max load 4.2?  
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Hodgdon has not returned my email about the stated pressure being wrong.

Hodgdon - Strike 1


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Old 08-25-2017, 12:03 AM
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Hodgdon 38 & 357 same max load 4.2? Hodgdon 38 & 357 same max load 4.2? Hodgdon 38 & 357 same max load 4.2? Hodgdon 38 & 357 same max load 4.2? Hodgdon 38 & 357 same max load 4.2?  
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If you look under the Contact Us section you should find their number. I have called them several times. However I recommend you do not call them yet. First look around on their site and find where they wrote a whole dissertation on Trail Boss and how to calculate your own load data for it. It's been a few years since I read it but it said something this. Take any cartridge, I think they used a 30-06 as an example. Figure out the case volume left over after whatever bullet your using is seated. Then figure 70 percent of that number and that's your starting load. Max I think they said was like 90 percent case fill. However they also say you can usually go up to 100 percent as pressure is usually only about 25k at that point, as long as you do not compress it. Breaking the ring shaped grains causes them to burn faster and will spike pressure.

Anyways, it would be better to read this first as they have already answered those questions. They can get a bit annoyed when you do that.
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Old 08-27-2017, 01:33 AM
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Hodgdon 38 & 357 same max load 4.2? Hodgdon 38 & 357 same max load 4.2? Hodgdon 38 & 357 same max load 4.2? Hodgdon 38 & 357 same max load 4.2? Hodgdon 38 & 357 same max load 4.2?  
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I'm thinking the use of a magnum primer it their .357 Magnum load is the reason they use the same charge weight as in the .38 Special but report higher pressures in the .357 Mag case.
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