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Old 08-15-2017, 12:55 PM
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Default Lube on lead saving my brass?

It has seemed to me that I have a much higher 'attrition rate' (crunched, rippled, deformed cases) loading jacketed or plated than lead.

This weekend I had occasion to load 1000 new cases, so I kept track of my losses. (All were same headstamp, virgin brass, loaded within 0.3 grains of each other, propellant not close to filling the case.) 250 each of two types of lead wadcutter, two types of plated, 147 to 150 grain in weight, no bevels, seated to roll crimp on the metplat. Plated were .357. Lead were .359.

Lost 0 lead, lost 3 and 4 from the plated, 4 could be chambered, three were too mangled to chamber. In the past I attributed losses to having an unknown number of previous cycles. But loosing 1.4'/,...

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Old 08-15-2017, 01:35 PM
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The lead projectile itself is slicker than jacketed or plated. Plus if the bullet comes down firmly on the case mouth, the lead ones will just slice away. This sometimes leaves a sliver of lead on the outside of the case mouth or laying on the shell holder.

1% +/- on jacketed bullets is a pretty high attrition rate. I would look for an alignment problem, not enough case mouth flare, or a problem in your actual procedure (too big of hurry is #1). When I load straight wall cases, I have the most problem with the primers flipping upside down, these are still reloadable . Crushed cases are in the 1 per 1000 to 2000 rate, and that is usually my error! With my progressive, I have tubes for 1000 primers, so I load in groupings of 1000 (that is about 2 hours) after 3 thousand I have trouble staying focused (especially if that is after work) and that is when I normally slip up.

Hope this helps.

Ivan
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Old 08-15-2017, 01:44 PM
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It is likely nothing to do with the bullet but your setup & seating/crimp technique.
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Old 08-15-2017, 02:27 PM
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A Lyman type "M" expander die will help stop crushing the case mouth and misaligned bullets. The type "M" die allows you to start the bullet in the case mouth without any tilting.

Below a .223/5.56 Lyman type "M" expander that has a step .002 larger than bullet diameter. This allows the bullets to be started straight in the case by hand and reduces bullet runout. This photo of the .223 was the best image I could find to show the "step" this type expander puts in the case mouth. And and only a very slight taper crimp is need after seating. With a standard expander you rely on the seater plug to start the bullet straight. And with the type "M" expander die you start the bullet "straight" into the case with just two fingers with no tilting.



NOTE, the pattent for the Lyman type "M" die expired and Redding and RCBS pistol dies now have the same type "M" expanders.

Below a Redding pistol die set with the type "M" expander, center image. I use the Lyman type "M" expanders with all my jacketed, plated and lead bullets and even my AR15 reloads.


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Old 08-15-2017, 02:48 PM
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What exactly were the damages? What damages occurred to each kind of bullet?

Bullet shaving occurs when a bullet is pushed into a case with sharp edges that is smaller in diameter (ID) than the bullet (OD).

OOPS! I read "shaving" rather than "saving". Disregard the "shaving" part of my post...

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Old 08-15-2017, 03:00 PM
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Proper case expanding / belling , seating and crimping in separate steps will solve the attrition ....I promise !
I had the same problem...but no longer.
Gary

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Old 08-15-2017, 03:07 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fredj338 View Post
It is likely nothing to do with the bullet but your setup & seating/crimp technique.
This.

Lead is more forgiving than jacketed or plated. But that doesn't mean plated bullets were the problem.
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Old 08-15-2017, 03:11 PM
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This.

Lead is more forgiving than jacketed or plated. But that doesn't mean plated bullets were the problem.
Anecdotal, but I get more split cases with lead than anything else. Usually after the loaded rounds have sat for a few years. Not sure why, maybe some sort of chemical issue, welding to the case, not sure, but I have lost 40% of brass in long term lead bullet loads, like 10yrs or so old.
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Old 08-15-2017, 03:45 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TomkinsSP View Post
It has seemed to me that I have a much higher 'attrition rate' (crunched, rippled, deformed cases) loading jacketed or plated than lead.
---------------------
Lost 0 lead, lost 3 and 4 from the plated, 4 could be chambered, three were too mangled to chamber. In the past I attributed losses to having an unknown number of previous cycles. But loosing 1.4'/,...

Thoughts, comments,
Sir,

I share the view of others here that your problem isn't with the type of bullet. I've loaded many thousands of jacketed bullets without any of the problems you mentioned in your first paragraph(i.e. not a single damaged case). And that's not because I'm such an accomplished loader. I would look elsewhere to isolate the problem.

Best wishes in resolving the matter,
Andy
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Old 08-15-2017, 08:03 PM
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Quote:
Ivan the Butcher wrote:
I would look for an alignment problem, not enough case mouth flare, or a problem in your actual procedure (too big of hurry is #1).
Slice me off some skirt steak, Ivan, I've got fajitas to make.

I also agree with you about what the problem might be and the order in which it should be investigated.

And, TompkinsSP, you are correct that a 1.4% loss rate is higher than would be expected. I keep meticulous records of everything I have loaded since early 1980 and if I ignore losses to a set of Lee dies that I could never get adjusted quite right, I have lost 7 cases (0.06%) out of the last (in round numbers) 12,000.
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Old 08-16-2017, 12:18 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fredj338 View Post
Anecdotal, but I get more split cases with lead than anything else. Usually after the loaded rounds have sat for a few years. Not sure why, maybe some sort of chemical issue, welding to the case, not sure, but I have lost 40% of brass in long term lead bullet loads, like 10yrs or so old.
You should try shooting your ammo more often. Your problem will be self resolving...
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Old 08-16-2017, 06:58 AM
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Tom,

Your post doesn't provide much information except "My brass cases were damaged seating bullets." What kind of press are you using, single stage, progressive?

Increase the amount of case mouth flare or belling.

You want the bullet in the case mouth ~1/32" , sitting square in the case, with the edge of the case mouth above the base of the bullet. This condition needs to be met before the bullet enters the seater die.

If the case mouth is flared too much, the case mouth may not enter the bullet seater die.

Is the bullet seating depth correct, check the overall cartridge length?

Are you over-crimping the case mouth? Overcrimping can cause the case to buckle / wrinkle / collapse.

New brass is good for 5 to 10 reloads. Honest once fired brass, new fired cases from factory ammo should also give 5 to 10 reloads. Range pickup brass is great stuff, you may get 1 reload, you may get 10 reloads. I don't know how much brass I've thrown away, several boxes at least. As for factory handgun ammo, I've bought 1 box (50 ct) 38 Spl Remington flush seated wad cutters, 1 box 158 gr LRN 38 Spl at Camp Perry, 1 box of Federal 223 Remington to shoot in an XP-100 (there are 9 rounds left).

I would guesstimate that I have 5,000 rounds of loaded 38 Spl target loads made with cast lead bullets and range pickup brass. I just don't care about case failures, pick another bullet and shoot.
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Old 08-16-2017, 02:20 PM
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Thank you to everyone who took the time to respond. It is appreciated.

Engineer: Basic Lee Load Master Progressive, 4 pc Lee die set.
The seating die is doing the squishing, cases are flared as much as possible for reliable operation (too much and cases get squished as well).
I think alignment of bullet to ram is the culprit, I figure the lead is softer, more forgiving and lubricated so less likely to stick. Plated bullets seem to catch on the brass, deforming the brass rather than sliding.
Wadcutters with long straight bearing surfaces are the worst.

Fred: I assume they are splitting when fired years later (not in storage).

HD: Since most of my brass is of unknown origin/history, I am trying to keep records on the new stuff to spot trends.

Ivan: Definite alignment issue, bevels seem to help, lead seems to help, shorter seated depth seems to help.

GW: More bell might help but it brings about issues of its own (catching and squishing brass.) With the die I have it seems bell is single curve outward.

Biged: I will have to try that M die, looks like it does a compound curve.
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Old 08-16-2017, 02:48 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SMSgt View Post
You should try shooting your ammo more often. Your problem will be self resolving...
Yes, but back in the day I used to load up couple 1000rds of any given caliber. I load for all handgun calibers & depending on what I am shooting at that time, it gets used or not. So now I only keep 500 or so of anything on hand.
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Old 08-16-2017, 02:50 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TomkinsSP View Post
Thank you to everyone who took the time to respond. It is appreciated.

Engineer: Basic Lee Load Master Progressive, 4 pc Lee die set.
The seating die is doing the squishing, cases are flared as much as possible for reliable operation (too much and cases get squished as well).
I think alignment of bullet to ram is the culprit, I figure the lead is softer, more forgiving and lubricated so less likely to stick. Plated bullets seem to catch on the brass, deforming the brass rather than sliding.
Wadcutters with long straight bearing surfaces are the worst.

Fred: I assume they are splitting when fired years later (not in storage).

.
Actually some split in the loaded round before firing. It's a weird thing, only happens with lead bullets. So I just don't keep a bunch of lead stuff loaded.
So it sounds like technique. You need to set the bullet straight & insure it enters the seating die as straight as possible.
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Old 08-16-2017, 03:26 PM
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Biged: I will have to try that M die, looks like it does a compound curve.
A type "M" expander allows you to do three types of neck expanding on rifle and pistol cases.

In the illustration below I use B for jacketed and plated bullets and for cast bullets depending on bullet diameter I may use C with a slight flare. And this depends on brass spring back and cast bullet diameter. And this added flare is seldom needed if the lead bullets are seated right after expanding the case mouth. Let the cases sit for a week after expanding and its a different story. (brass spring back)

Example with jacketed and plated bullets I bump the the case mouth just enough on to the second step that allows me to start the bullet straight with two fingers. Also the type "M" expander puts less stress on the case mouth and you will have less case mouth splits.



Bottom line, its the bad fitting seater plug to bullet shape that lets the bullet tilt when seating. And with the type "M" expander the bullet is straight before the seater plug touches the bullet, and no bullet tilting during seating.

Below Redding and Forster benchrest seating dies that aligns the bullet straight with the case neck. Meaning these type seater dies do not allow the bullet to tilt when seating the bullet and reduce neck runout.


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Old 08-16-2017, 05:21 PM
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I have using the M type expander with great success. I got it from RCBS because they will send you a different size stem if needed (free).

I have a S&W 25-5 45 colt with large cylinder throats .454". When I was seating my .454 lead into the case, the case was swaging the bullet down to .450". Yuk. I got the larger stem from RCBS which now makes a little correctly sized nest for me to push the bullet into. The bullet stays .454 until it hits the forcing cone. Accuracy went from 3" at 25 yards to under an inch. Lyman does not offer different size stems.


This will work for you !

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Old 08-16-2017, 05:51 PM
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Biged: I had not thought of it, but it seems that I have been using a seat shaped like the inside bottom of "A" to seat a long rectangle into a casemouth shaped like the top inside of "V". Its a wonder more bullets don't tilt (many prob do but right themselves before doing irreparable harm.)
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Old 08-16-2017, 06:50 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bigedp51 View Post
A Lyman type "M" expander die will help stop crushing the case mouth and misaligned bullets. The type "M" die allows you to start the bullet in the case mouth without any tilting.

Below a .223/5.56 Lyman type "M" expander that has a step .002 larger than bullet diameter. This allows the bullets to be started straight in the case by hand and reduces bullet runout. This photo of the .223 was the best image I could find to show the "step" this type expander puts in the case mouth. And and only a very slight taper crimp is need after seating. With a standard expander you rely on the seater plug to start the bullet straight. And with the type "M" expander die you start the bullet "straight" into the case with just two fingers with no tilting.



NOTE, the pattent for the Lyman type "M" die expired and Redding and RCBS pistol dies now have the same type "M" expanders.

Below a Redding pistol die set with the type "M" expander, center image. I use the Lyman type "M" expanders with all my jacketed, plated and lead bullets and even my AR15 reloads.

They are the way to fly.
For a number of years I wound up making my own custom sized expander dies with the step, and I still do for some types of load.
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Old 08-16-2017, 07:00 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fredj338 View Post
Anecdotal, but I get more split cases with lead than anything else. Usually after the loaded rounds have sat for a few years. Not sure why, maybe some sort of chemical issue, welding to the case, not sure, but I have lost 40% of brass in long term lead bullet loads, like 10yrs or so old.
Wow, I wonder what caused that, A few months ago I found a partial box of .357 wadcutter loads that were loaded with Bullseye 40+ years ago. They all fired just fine, and it was nickle plated brass. (Still have 5 left, gonna try 'em in 10 more years, if I can...)
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Old 08-16-2017, 07:29 PM
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Just to add my $0.02,nickel plated cases won't last as long as unplated ones.Also the diameter of the bullet does have a part to play in this.The larger diam. bullet will ''stretch'' the brass a little more(like a .431 bullet vs a .429 in .44 mag brass).
Also,some brand of brass are more brittle than others;I won't name any brand here since some that were renowned as having good brass in the '70s(yep,I'm that old!)are now issuing brass that is not as tough(and that is an understatement!).
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Old 08-16-2017, 07:37 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TomkinsSP View Post
Biged: I had not thought of it, but it seems that I have been using a seat shaped like the inside bottom of "A" to seat a long rectangle into a casemouth shaped like the top inside of "V". Its a wonder more bullets don't tilt (many prob do but right themselves before doing irreparable harm.)
I was seating plated 9mm bullets and leaving a circular ring around the bullet after seating with Lee dies. I ordered a 9mm type "M" die and switched to the flat seater plug for hollow points. End result more uniform OAL and no compression ring around the bullet.

That being said many die manufactures will make custom seater plugs for you if you send them three bullets.

And again Redding and RCBS are now using type "M" expanders with their pistol dies.

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