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Old 08-29-2017, 12:20 AM
johnny_yuma johnny_yuma is offline
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Hard Cast Alloy Bullets safe for my new JM 625? Hard Cast Alloy Bullets safe for my new JM 625? Hard Cast Alloy Bullets safe for my new JM 625? Hard Cast Alloy Bullets safe for my new JM 625? Hard Cast Alloy Bullets safe for my new JM 625?  
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Default Hard Cast Alloy Bullets safe for my new JM 625?

Glad to be aboard on the forum here. Just picked up my first Smith & Wesson Revolver -JM 625 45ACP. Im a 45ACP guy and its my favorite caliber to reload for so I fell in love with the 625.

I have a box of 500 "Better Bullets" Super Hard Cast Alloy Bullets in 200gr semi-wadcutter .452 that I picked up a few years ago for my 1911 that for no particular reason I hardly ever used. Nearly all my reloading is with jacketed bullets.

I realize that Hard Cast Alloy bullets are harder than lead bullets, but I'm still concerned about the rifling in my barrel getting gummed up and lead shavings gumming up my seating die.

Are Hard Cast Alloy bullets safe for my barrel, will they gum up my seating dies with lead deposits?

Point is, Im looking for a cheaper bullet solution than jacketed copper bullets. I have my eye on plated bullets too...

Thanks for your help in advance
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Old 08-29-2017, 01:11 AM
Rpg Rpg is offline
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Hard Cast Alloy Bullets safe for my new JM 625? Hard Cast Alloy Bullets safe for my new JM 625? Hard Cast Alloy Bullets safe for my new JM 625? Hard Cast Alloy Bullets safe for my new JM 625? Hard Cast Alloy Bullets safe for my new JM 625?  
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Hard cast is virtually all I shoot.

Of course, I have no ECM riffled handguns.

Won't gum up anything and won't lead.

Won't hurt your gun in any way.

Last edited by Rpg; 08-29-2017 at 11:07 AM.
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Old 08-29-2017, 01:14 AM
johnny_yuma johnny_yuma is offline
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Hard Cast Alloy Bullets safe for my new JM 625? Hard Cast Alloy Bullets safe for my new JM 625? Hard Cast Alloy Bullets safe for my new JM 625? Hard Cast Alloy Bullets safe for my new JM 625? Hard Cast Alloy Bullets safe for my new JM 625?  
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I figured so!

Loading up a batch right now

Sometimes you see something someone else said that turns out to be complete BS
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Old 08-29-2017, 01:16 AM
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MY 625 JM doesn't do well with cast bullets regardless of hard they are cast (the barrel leads up severely)...so I just stay with 230 FMJ and have a blast!!
I use them in USPSA/IDPA matches.

Randy

PS. Now my 25-2 just doesn't care....it shoots my favorite #68 H&G 200 gr. SWC VERY well and no leading issues....differences in how the barrel is rifled I guess.
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Old 08-29-2017, 01:26 AM
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Any lead bullet is softer than jacketed & will actually wear less on the bore & forcing cone. Leasing is a product of poor bullet fit to cyl throats & bore. Generrally a 0.452" bullet will work fine, but all guns are diff. If you cant easily push a 0.452" bullet thru the cyl throats of each cyl, then the throats will resize the bullet & you are likely to get leading in the first 1-2" of bbl. hardcast, soft swaged, its all about proper fit.
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Old 08-29-2017, 01:37 AM
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Hard Cast Alloy Bullets safe for my new JM 625? Hard Cast Alloy Bullets safe for my new JM 625? Hard Cast Alloy Bullets safe for my new JM 625? Hard Cast Alloy Bullets safe for my new JM 625? Hard Cast Alloy Bullets safe for my new JM 625?  
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I don't cast lead bullets but figure I have shot over 100,000 of them downrange. My understanding is even "hard cast" lead is softer (or maybe more pliable is a better description) than a jacketed or plated bullet of equal diameter. Everything I have read states lead bullets create less friction (heat) traveling down the barrel. Loading manuals show slightly lower charges for lead than jacketed of the same weight. Lots of information is available about alloying and casting lead bullets. The consensus seems to be that its the sizing of bullets not their hardness that causes leading in bores. Makes sense to me, bullets are round, not polygons, old fashioned lands just squish the lead in a bit but the polygons have little concave triangles the lead can fill. BTW leading generally is only an issue when you switch back to harder plated or jacketed rounds. People shoot lead through Glocks, they just clean them really well afterward to remove any lead from the bore. Anyway, I shoot lead in .32/.327 .38/.357/9 .30-30/7.62 and so far the only damage done has been to targets.
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Old 08-29-2017, 01:51 AM
johnny_yuma johnny_yuma is offline
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Hard Cast Alloy Bullets safe for my new JM 625? Hard Cast Alloy Bullets safe for my new JM 625? Hard Cast Alloy Bullets safe for my new JM 625? Hard Cast Alloy Bullets safe for my new JM 625? Hard Cast Alloy Bullets safe for my new JM 625?  
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just finished loading 50 200gr cast alloy semi wadcutters...

I'll see how they do after 30 rounds or so and check the bore and post what I find.
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Old 08-29-2017, 02:27 AM
geddylee10002000 geddylee10002000 is offline
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Hard Cast Alloy Bullets safe for my new JM 625? Hard Cast Alloy Bullets safe for my new JM 625? Hard Cast Alloy Bullets safe for my new JM 625? Hard Cast Alloy Bullets safe for my new JM 625? Hard Cast Alloy Bullets safe for my new JM 625?  
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Growr and I shot a action pistol match in Miles City, MT about 2 years ago. We are child hood friends from the same home town. BTW, he beat the pants off me.

He has a 625 JM and I have a 625 JM Performance Center. Differences, cylinder length, under-lug differences, & how they cut the rifling. JM is ECM (Electro Chemical Machining) and the Performance Center is Deep Cut Broached Rifling.

I haven't had a whole lot of leading problems with cast (home brewed or commercial). But they are pretty dirty and a lot of smoke due to the lube. Great for practice. Haven't tried plated or coated yet as for the cost I can get Zero FMJ 230 gr. for the same price. No problems with them. I do have a friend here that gets me a dealer discount.
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Old 08-29-2017, 05:32 AM
TjB101 TjB101 is offline
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Hard Cast Alloy Bullets safe for my new JM 625? Hard Cast Alloy Bullets safe for my new JM 625? Hard Cast Alloy Bullets safe for my new JM 625? Hard Cast Alloy Bullets safe for my new JM 625? Hard Cast Alloy Bullets safe for my new JM 625?  
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I've used quite a bit of the Better Bullets, both lead and coated and they are just fine out of my 357 guns. Hopefully you will find, as I did, wonderful accuracy with them.
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Old 08-29-2017, 08:35 AM
cowboy4evr cowboy4evr is offline
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Hard Cast Alloy Bullets safe for my new JM 625? Hard Cast Alloy Bullets safe for my new JM 625? Hard Cast Alloy Bullets safe for my new JM 625? Hard Cast Alloy Bullets safe for my new JM 625? Hard Cast Alloy Bullets safe for my new JM 625?  
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If you find lead in the barrel , just wrap a piece of " Chore Boy " around a worn out bore brush . Chore Boy is pure copper scouring pad , it will quickly remove the lead and no harm to the barrel . Don't buy any other brand as some are actually steel coated with copper . Chore Boy is usually available at Walmart and Ace Hdwe Stores .
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Old 08-29-2017, 08:48 AM
cowboy4evr cowboy4evr is offline
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Hard Cast Alloy Bullets safe for my new JM 625? Hard Cast Alloy Bullets safe for my new JM 625? Hard Cast Alloy Bullets safe for my new JM 625? Hard Cast Alloy Bullets safe for my new JM 625? Hard Cast Alloy Bullets safe for my new JM 625?  
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If a barrel is leaded you usually have internal dimension problems . You need to slug the barrel to get the ' groove ' diameter of the barrel . You need to measure the cylinder throats . If the cylinder throats are smaller than the groove diameter of the barrel , the cylinder throats need to reamed larger . Your cast bullet should be at least .001th's larger than the barrel measurement . Proper fit is king !
YOu need to drive a soft slug all the way through the barrel to see if there is a " tight spot " at the junction where the barrel threads onto the frame , or are there machine marks in the barrel or a tight spot where they " roll stamp " all the markings on the side of a barrel . Driving a lead slug all the way down the barrel , you will feel if any of these conditions are present . Shooting cast successfullly requires some effort and patience to get everything correct . To just decide to shoot cast so you go out and buy somebody's cast bullets w/o taking the time to check for the above mentioned conditions is futile . Then if the barrel is leaded you blame the commercial casters bullets , " poor lube , too hard , too soft " etc when the real problem lies withing the revolver itself .

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Old 08-29-2017, 08:56 AM
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Cast bullets will be softer than any jacketed option and will not cause excess barrel damage. If anything, barrel wear will be reduced by using them. Leading is a different issue. In that case, correct bullet diameter is the most important thing to keep in mind.

Bear in mind that at the velocities you'll be seeing with 45ACP, you don't need "hard-cast" anything. If those hard-cast bullets aren't equal to, or better yet about .001 over the groove diameter, they may still lead. I've actually found that softer(about 8-10brn) cast bullets will obturate better to fit barrel diameter even if sizing is a bit off.
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Old 08-29-2017, 10:57 AM
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The only thing that I can tell you is to go ahead and try them. All the theorizing in the world isn't worth one wit compared to empirical data. Same goes for other people's experiences.

There has been a lot written about the propensity of the ECM rifled barrels to lead-up, vs. broach cut, I think that cowboy4evr's answer addresses that - too many other variables in play to pin any leading solely on the rifling type. To blame ECM seems counter-intuitive as the rifling in those barrels is so smooth that, when it was introduced, forensic ballisticians were concerned that there wouldn't be distinct rifling marks.

I'd suggest you try coated bullets, and to make best use of your revolver's quick loading ability, with moon clips, you use 230 gr RN - the gun practically loads itself. I have five revolvers that use .45 ACP and use Ranch Products moon clips, the Deluxe moon clip tool and a Brownells screwdriver type de-mooner. Or if you want the Rolls Royce of tools - the BMT tool. I use Bayou or Ibejihead coated bullets - no smoke and no leading (in my guns).

Have fun.

BTW, are you from SE PA - the home of "Better Bullets" as Roger is also producing coated bullets he calls his PC line.

Adios,

Pizza Bob
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Old 08-29-2017, 11:15 AM
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Hard Cast Alloy Bullets safe for my new JM 625? Hard Cast Alloy Bullets safe for my new JM 625? Hard Cast Alloy Bullets safe for my new JM 625? Hard Cast Alloy Bullets safe for my new JM 625? Hard Cast Alloy Bullets safe for my new JM 625?  
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I use hard cast (Oregon Trails) bullets in my revolvers and pistol-caliber carbines, with little or no leading. A .357 or .44 magnum reaches up to 1800 fps in a 20" barrel, with a normal (revolver) load.

I've heard of them used with polygonal rifling (e.g., Clock) without problems, whereas soft lead bullets are unusable.
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Old 08-29-2017, 11:46 AM
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Hard Cast Alloy Bullets safe for my new JM 625? Hard Cast Alloy Bullets safe for my new JM 625? Hard Cast Alloy Bullets safe for my new JM 625? Hard Cast Alloy Bullets safe for my new JM 625? Hard Cast Alloy Bullets safe for my new JM 625?  
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To me hard cast means 16-18 Brinell

Lyman #2 alloy is about 16 Brinell
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Old 08-29-2017, 01:53 PM
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Hard Cast Alloy Bullets safe for my new JM 625? Hard Cast Alloy Bullets safe for my new JM 625? Hard Cast Alloy Bullets safe for my new JM 625? Hard Cast Alloy Bullets safe for my new JM 625? Hard Cast Alloy Bullets safe for my new JM 625?  
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To dispel any old wive's tales and fears go here and look around. Just about everything cast bullet related is discussed here. No BS, just real like experiences. Cast Boolits

I use cast (not "hard cast" and "harder is better" is another old wive's tale) bullets, running from 10 BHN to mebbe 16 BHN, in most of my guns and all my handguns and found, in every gun, that proper fit, bullet to gun fit, is essential for clean, leading free, accurate ammo.

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Old 08-29-2017, 02:31 PM
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I shoot range scrap cast for the most part, up to 1200fps or so. Conventional lubes work fine, but as noted dirty the gun up pretty quickly.
I was slow to the coated bullet wave but now it's all I shoot in my handguns right now. Less crud & smoke, same great accuracy & doing it yourself, very cheap shooting, any caliber handgun. Powder Coatings will go 2000fps w/o accuracy loss. Hi-Tek works well too but vel falls off after 1400fps or so.
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Old 09-04-2017, 04:00 AM
johnny_yuma johnny_yuma is offline
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Hard Cast Alloy Bullets safe for my new JM 625? Hard Cast Alloy Bullets safe for my new JM 625? Hard Cast Alloy Bullets safe for my new JM 625? Hard Cast Alloy Bullets safe for my new JM 625? Hard Cast Alloy Bullets safe for my new JM 625?  
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RESULTS. Here are my results after shooting over 200 hard cast alloy bullets through my JM625 over two days. 100 rounds per day and thurough cleaning after each day:

Hoppes #9 (you guessed it!) with a brass bore scrubber cleaned anything and everything from the bore. First I soaked the bore with Hoppes # 9 -not "Rem Oil" nor "Break Free CLP".... nor anything else. Just Hoppes #9. Left it soak. Scrubbed the **** out of it with the bore scrubber. Soaked it again...repeat.

What I did notice inspecting the barrel from both ends with a bore light was after the 3rd scrubbing was that while the barrel and rifling itself were virgin clean, the chamber end where there the bore is smooth for a fraction of an inch before the rifling starts -that spot there, directly where the bore meets the cylinder chambers, under the bore light it had what appeared to be "tiny little pebbles" LEAD! This was just a function of driving the bore scrubber from the muzzle. So I managed to scrub from the chamber end with the bore scrubber attachment, leaving it to sit in the chamber end of the bore after pouring a few drops of Hoppes # 9 then directly using my fingers to use the brass scrubber attachment to reach around inside the end of the bore it to hit those hard to reach places and after about 10 minutes there wasn't a speck of lead anywhere.

So. Cleaning after shooting Lead or Hard Cast Lead Alloy is a pain in the ***. But in my experience, my JM625 shoots lead beautifully and its just a matter of developing a good cleaning procedure.

Next, I am going to use a .50 Caliber brass scrubber through the muzzle, and weld a .45 scrubber to an Allen tool to easier scrub into the Chamber end of the bore and get those spots where I cant apply pressure from a scrubber through the muzzle.
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Old 09-04-2017, 05:25 AM
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Get some coated bullets from Bayou Bullets. They smoke less and leave no lead in the barrel. There are a lot of makers of coated bullets these days. They cost about the same as lead but are a lot cheaper than jacketed.

I was pushing 9mm coated through my 929 and had no need to run a brush through the gun after 1000 rounds. No leading is nice. Also the cylinders stayed clean and didn't need to be scrubed as often.
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Old 09-04-2017, 10:02 AM
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Hard Cast Alloy Bullets safe for my new JM 625? Hard Cast Alloy Bullets safe for my new JM 625? Hard Cast Alloy Bullets safe for my new JM 625? Hard Cast Alloy Bullets safe for my new JM 625? Hard Cast Alloy Bullets safe for my new JM 625?  
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My 625JM tends to lead badly. I don't want to have to load special to 1 gun. (call me lazy if you want) So, I load plated, or jacketed bullets. Have loaded coated in 9mm, but no 45's as of yet. Rifling in JM is prone to leading. Still love shooting it though! Bob
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Old 09-04-2017, 03:55 PM
johnny_yuma johnny_yuma is offline
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Hard Cast Alloy Bullets safe for my new JM 625? Hard Cast Alloy Bullets safe for my new JM 625? Hard Cast Alloy Bullets safe for my new JM 625? Hard Cast Alloy Bullets safe for my new JM 625? Hard Cast Alloy Bullets safe for my new JM 625?  
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I've since ordered 1000 units Zero bullets JHP. I still have around 300 Hard Cast Alloy, which shoot very accurate and I know what Im dealing with in cleaning the weapon after those =P -And thanks for the tip. Plated bullets next
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Old 09-04-2017, 07:14 PM
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1) When you first start to shoot any lead bullet, thoroughly clean the bore of any copper and, when shooting, check the bore after about 25 shots to look for leading.
2) Hard does NOT prevent leading. For your use, the alloy is too hard. Bullets that are too hard or too small will initiate leading at the beginning for the rifling, if not at the forcing cone. You should have an alloy of 9-12 BHN.
3) For revolvers, there are two things to watch:
a) the bullet must be at least a snug slip fit in the cylinder's throats
and
b) must be at least 0.001" larger than the actual measured groove diameter.
4) To really prevent leading, if you get any, you should use a very light tumble lube of Lee Liquid Alox or powder coating.
5) If you get any leading, buy all copper Chore Boy scrub pads (accept no substitute), tear off a few strands, wrap around your bronze/brass brush, and scrub the lead out.

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Old 09-05-2017, 12:31 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bananaman View Post
My 625JM tends to lead badly. I don't want to have to load special to 1 gun. (call me lazy if you want) So, I load plated, or jacketed bullets. Have loaded coated in 9mm, but no 45's as of yet. Rifling in JM is prone to leading. Still love shooting it though! Bob
I believe the rifling in the JM is what causes the leading. I also had a bad leading problem in my 625 JM. I went to coated in all my pistols. I never had any leading in my Colt 1911's but my Sig 220 also leaded up. No more leading.
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Old 09-05-2017, 04:44 AM
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Default A couple of alternatives to save cost......

...escpecially in a .45s with lower velocities than other semis

Soft Swaged bullets

Coated bullets

Hard cast lube in groove bullets (these are my least favorite

Plated bullets and heavy plated bullets

I don't shoot jacketed anything any more without a good reason. For target and plinking these do the job.

I save the jacketed stuff for SD.
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Old 09-05-2017, 02:49 PM
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Did you measure each cyl throat? You will need pin gages or an ID mic to do it accurately, but if a 0.451" bullet will fall thru, the throats are too tight. This will swage the 0.452" bullet down & you will get leading in the throat & first 1" or so of bbl. If you are going to shoot lead bullets, even coated lead, the cyl throats wants to be at least 0.452".
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Old 09-05-2017, 09:12 PM
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I have a recent 625JM. I've fired 1500-2000 rounds thru it, 95%+ were my cast lead bullets sized 0.452. The bore measures 0.451, the smallest cylinder measure 0.452. My hardness is low at 10.4+/-bhn. Use the largest cast bullet that fits the smallest cylinder and your leading will go away. Ideal size is .001-.002 over the barrel size, but no larger than the smallest hole in the cylinder.
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Old 09-05-2017, 09:38 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by growr View Post
MY 625 JM doesn't do well with cast bullets regardless of hard they are cast (the barrel leads up severely)...so I just stay with 230 FMJ and have a blast!!
I use them in USPSA/IDPA matches.

Randy

PS. Now my 25-2 just doesn't care....it shoots my favorite #68 H&G 200 gr. SWC VERY well and no leading issues....differences in how the barrel is rifled I guess.
Your gun may have undersized throats , or your bullets are too hard.
It is a widely held fallacy that softer lead bullets always cause more leading. Sometimes hard bullets are worse because they don't obturate and give a good bore seal.
With the lower velocities involved in shooting the .45ACP cartridge, you could probably even get by with shooting pure lead if a good lube is used.
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Old 09-05-2017, 10:09 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by smoothshooter View Post
Your gun may have undersized throats , or your bullets are too hard.
It is a widely held fallacy that softer lead bullets always cause more leading. Sometimes hard bullets are worse because they don't obturate and give a good bore seal.
With the lower velocities involved in shooting the .45ACP cartridge, you could probably even get by with shooting pure lead if a good lube is used.
What i've been sayin, but it seems to be diff for many to grasp.
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Old 09-14-2017, 02:15 AM
johnny_yuma johnny_yuma is offline
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I asked the question so here are my RESULTS AGAIN:

Shot another 100+ rounds of .452 Hard Cast Alloy bullets (Better bullets LSWC 200gr). I checked my JM625: It has a barrel of .451 All chambers are consistently .452 at the top then .451 at the bottom. As another had suggested: Check to see that the Hard Cast Alloy or lead bullets dont just drop thru your barrel. -CHECK. Check to see that they dont drop thru your Cambers but fit in thru the top. CHECK. So the gun is properly managing .452 bullets.

After multiple 50+ round sessions of Hard Cast Alloy 200gr .452 LSWC Gun shows light to minimal lead fouling. Hoppes #9 combined with moderate scrubbing with a brass bore scrubber produces a virgin clean barrel and chambers after repeated sessions. This gun can shoot anything if you bother to clean it. For all the tea in china, I cant see what people are complaining about if they bother to do a proper job cleaning the weapon.

Shoot all the lead you want. Just soak the barrel in Hoppes #9, Scrub, and Repeat.

END=================>

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Old 09-14-2017, 10:16 AM
cowboy4evr cowboy4evr is offline
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I would not use a brass bore brush . Instead take an old nylon bore brush , wrap a piece of chore boy around it . Chore Boy is " pure " copper , not like the after market ones that are steel coated with copper . You can usually find it at Ace Hdwe or Walmart . a brass brush over time could increase wear in the barrel . just my opinion .
If when cleaning a revolver that has fired cast , if I remove a few flakes , I don't consider that a leaded barrel . When I have strips an 1" long , then I have a problem .

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Old 09-14-2017, 05:14 PM
johnny_yuma johnny_yuma is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cowboy4evr View Post
I would not use a brass bore brush . Instead take an old nylon bore brush , wrap a piece of chore boy around it . Chore Boy is " pure " copper , not like the after market ones that are steel coated with copper . You can usually find it at Ace Hdwe or Walmart . a brass brush over time could increase wear in the barrel . just my opinion .
If when cleaning a revolver that has fired cast , if I remove a few flakes , I don't consider that a leaded barrel . When I have strips an 1" long , then I have a problem .
Chore-boy. Ok. I'll grab some of that next time Im at the hardware store. Thanks for the tip!
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Old 09-14-2017, 06:57 PM
Johnrh Johnrh is offline
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There are two types of ChoreBoy, one is pure copper and the other is copper coated. The box description will tell you. Make sure you get the pure copper one. ChoreBoy works great, you won't be scrubbing like you have been.
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Old 09-14-2017, 08:27 PM
johnny_yuma johnny_yuma is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Johnrh View Post
There are two types of ChoreBoy, one is pure copper and the other is copper coated. The box description will tell you. Make sure you get the pure copper one. ChoreBoy works great, you won't be scrubbing like you have been.
I've read about it elsewhere too. Thanks for the tip. Im all over it.

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Old 09-14-2017, 09:07 PM
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Warren Sear Warren Sear is offline
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Bring a magnet with you to the store to quickly determine if the Chore Boy has steel under copper plating. In my experience, it works best on a dry bore, and just takes a few passes to remove any lead. Then clean the barrel as you normally would.

Don't use a 50 cal brush in a 45 cal barrel. Use the correct one; it will work better.
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