Hello everyone.
I've been loading 148gr WC over 2.7gr Bullseye and have been doing well with it .
My scores are coming along.
Question is what other powders might I try for bullseye shooting .
One of the guys at the club likes the Vihta Vuori N320.
He was saying that the Bullseye was such a fast burn that it will produce more recoil than a slower burning powder.
So what slower burning powder would you folks suggest ?
Whats good ?
I like shooting the Alliant product. Under 20 bucks a pound vs 37 for the imported stuff.
Seems silly to spend the extra $$ if theres something that does the job with out the imported price tag.

I would not listen to anyone that wants to change from 2.7 or 2.8 gr BE unless it became unobtainable.

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Front sight and squeeze

Finding Bullseye up here has been spotty at best. Not slow burning, but I use either Winchester W231 (3.0grains under a 148g HBWC) or Winchester WST (2.7grains under a 148g HBWC).

Too much recoil with 2.7 grains Bullseye??? There are other powders out there that will work but you aren't going to get much less recoil than that load.

Unique Will work. Win 231 will work. N320 will work. None of them will be any better.

Ha , yep thats what he said.

I use Titegroup or CFE by Hodgdon. Recoil, what recoil?

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S&W M60-15 Pro 3", M69 2.7"

Another vote for 231. I use a 158 SWC with 3.4 grains of it.

Here is a wad cutter chart. Jump in feet first.

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Hah! I'm in good company here.

You can't fault 2.7/2.8 of BE for anything.

VVN310 will probably burn a little cleaner, it's just as fast.

WST is excellent. I use 2.5 gr.

I have lately been experimenting with HP-38/WW-231. I tried 3.5gr and found it very accurate, and thought it had roughly the same recoil as BE, but softer in the hand. However, it's been a couple months since I've shot 2.8 of BE, and I've shot a lot of .44 Mag between then and now, so my Recoil-o-Meter is a bit off. I'm going shooting tomorrow, I'll bring some 3.5/HP-38 and some 3.2/HP-38 (the lightest I can get my measure to throw), and some 2.8/BEs, and try and post back. I may wind up needing Wise_A Sr to judge.

Speaking of...I thought I'd try and get rid of my experimental pound of HP-38, and now I'm enjoying it in .45 ACP and .38 Spl immensely.

When I tried to get rid of that "awful" 700-X I hated in .38 Spl and .45...I discovered it was amazing in my 9mm target loads.

My powder collection refuses to shrink.

2.5gr of either clays or wst
2.7gr bullseye

For accuracy, there is a reason that the 2.7 gr BE over a 148 gr WC is THE classic bullseye load.
That said, I've found that Tightgroup behaves VERY close to BE in like amounts. (There are even side by side in powder burn rate charts btw). Another good option would be W231/HP38.
If it were me, I'd get a lgs to order me a 8# can of BE with their next powder order and be done with it.

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Dave

Alliant has a new powder out, SPORT PISTOL, extremely mild recoil with 148gr WC loads. It is likely well worth a try, the load data shows 2.7gr w/HBWC, this works very well for me with flush set 148 WC's.
Karl

"He was saying that the Bullseye was such a fast burn that it will produce more recoil than a slower burning powder."


This is the reverse of the truth. It takes MORE of the slower powder for a safe charge, and more powder ejected equals more force backward. Tell him "the old physics professor" said to look up Newton's Second Law. Better yet, don't trust anything he says.

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Science plus Art

I use Power Pistol for 38spl and +P.

With all the powder options available, there will be many different varieties that are all pretty similar in performance. So it ultimately comes down to personal preference and what you have access to.

I personally like Alliant products too. Very affordable and good quality. I have a wholesale dealer local to me and can buy all my supplies from them at dang near wholesale costs. I started with Alliant and don't plan on switching. The good thing about my reloading is, all my calibers are pistol ctgs and therefore I can get away with just two powders on hand, Power Pistol and 2400.

I wouldn't mind trying Bullseye due to the low grain weight used. Maybe one day.

Weeelllllllll.....

There's a bit of conflicting thought that frankly comes down to personal preference.

One thought, as you state, is that you're converting X grains of a solid into an equal mass of a gas (and other assorted solids) that are then propelled out of the barrel. In other words, using less powder to achieve the same velocity means less recoil, because you're reacting and propelling less material out the barrel.

Speaking of which, a number of my old teachers were quite adept at converting X grains of lunch into an equal mass of gas, but I digress (and apologize...I couldn't help myself).

Another thought is that using a slower-burning powder spreads out the recoil impulse. The thinking there is (variously) that the reaction takes more time, and/or the bullet accelerates more smoothly, and the recoil is less "abrupt", which some people seem to prefer.

And still another thought is that faster powders do all of that faster, so the recoil impulse is shorter and less noticeable.

But really---everybody's right!

It comes down to a lot of things: personal preference, auto vs revolver, loading light vs minimizing recoil for a specific required velocity, and even (in the case of action pistol shooters) whether they're trying to minimize recoil or create snappy recoil that gets the sights back on target quicker.

It literally doesn't matter, recoil is very subjective and if you like a particular powder over another, then that's all it is.

I don't think I have EVER used anything for .38 WC except Bullseye or 231.

What Wise said^^^ + Pick a reloading manual, from any era, bullet maker, powder maker, equipment maker, it makes no difference. All will have target loads for the special. Some will have powders you have never heard of or are discontinued( I am currently shooting up a bunch of 450LS Win ball powder, that I bought many years ago, and found data in an old Speer manual) All will perform, some better than others. As Wise said, everyone has a personal choice and for them it is the right choice. However, you will be hard pressed to find a better powder and load of 2.7 grs. of BE. But you get to make that choice and you won't be wrong either..

You did not say what gun you are shooting it in and whether it is a hollowbase wadcutter (HBWC) or bevel base. If it is the HBWC you might try WST or 231. A lot of bulleye shooters have switched from bulleye to WST. If your shooting HBWCs you might try a range of loads from 2.7 grains to 3.0 grains and see which is most accurate in your gun. With the WST try 2.5 to 2.8 grains and see what happens. If your shooting Bevel base wadcutters you probably need to increase to 3.0 to 3.5 grains of Bulleye to get the best accuracy. We expect a full report soon.

For that small of a charge, Bullseye works great if you have it, but it's kind of smokey and sooty.

Any "uber fast" powder would work nicely at that low of a charge
e3, Extra Lite, Red Dot, Green Dot, Promo, American Select, Clays, Titewad, Hodgdon (fake Red Dot) "IMR red", N310, Vectan A24 or Prima-SV.

My favorite powders for lite handgun loads are Red Dot and Titewad simply because I by them by the 8 pound jugs for shotgun reloading and have lots of it so 2-4 grains per shot of handgun rounds is nothing compared to 17-19 grains in a shotgun load.

Thats exactly what I did a couple of weeks ago. I'm sitting on 9lb of BE. Works for me !

1959 Model 14 S&W 3T- 148 HBWC hornady. I settled on the 2.7 BE after running 10 rounds of all the choices through the gun. The 2.7 seemed to answer all my questions. So I loaded 700 rounds and have been shooting that . Next run I may run some 2.6 and 2.8 just to see whats what and if I had my scale set right the first time around

Go with either Bullseye or W231. Only other powers you will need for pistol will be Unique and 2400.

I was at my dealer, and picked up a pound of power pistol off the shelf, and when I put it on the counter, my dealer asked why??? I said I had heard that it was good, but the drawback is it's very loud! He said "but you use Bullseye...just stay with it." This is a guy turning down a sale...I use Bullseye, and am happy with it...

When I had a hard time finding Bullseye I bought Red Dot and loaded a bunch. 158grn lead RN, with 3.2 grains. Turns out both are excellent at 3.2. Red Dot has a much higher volume but shoots the same at this weight.

I use it in my ICORE matches.

Found Bullseye again last week and bought 4#. Should be set for pistol powder for a bit. But Red Dot is a viable contender.

Although there is some variability in how burn rate charts are compiled, Red Dot is generally considered "faster" than Bullseye.

If you're sure your friend recommending N320 isn't just enamored with the fact it's an import and thus must be better than anything domestic, then if you're looking for slower powders, your next choice in the Alliant stable is American Select and then Green Dot.

N320 slots in right between Winchester WST and Winchester 231 (a/k/a HP-38) which are both just a bit faster than Unique.

If I was shooting out of a 4 or 6 inch barrel, I would try Green Dot next. If I was shooting out of snubbie, I would stick with Bullseye (or its replacement Sport Pistol).

I shoot 2.9 grains of clays and a 125 grain bullet for all my
cowboy shooting. Clean and mild recoil.

I was pleasantly surprised at Red Dot for that purpose.

Titegoup works well and HP 38 does well with light loads.

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"He was kinda funny lookin'"

I started my shooting and reloading for pistol around 1968.DuPont Hercules Bullseye was the 1st powder I used for 38spl and 45acp loading on Star Machines.

I've also used 2.3gr of Clays under 148gr HBWC and 158gr LSWC.Very clean burning powder when medium rolled crimp applied.

Most recently I've been developing loads in 357 magnum cases using Titegroop for target shooting.I'm at 4.0gr under 158gr hard cast SWC.

These work well in a 3" 66-2 and a 2 1/2" 686-4

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NEVER GIVE UP YOUR GUN

Oh--almost forgot! I don't think anybody's mentioned AA #2. That's another one I've been playing with. Did extraordinarily nicely in a couple 9mm loads. It's also quite easy-metering and bulky.

Tite-group is another great powder 2.3 to 3.3. This is my go to powder works well with cast even in .45 colt.

A lot of powders will work, but Bullseye has been the standard for a long time. Why mess with success?

40+ years of reloading 38's and Unique has always worked well for me.

That and 2400, 296/H110, and a can of LiL'Gun for .22 Hornet is all I keep on the shelf.

I used to load Clays. Clean & economical. Used it for 12 gauge too. It became next to impossible to find. Red Dot, & G.D. are good for handgun loads for my purposes. I was looking for more Alliant Data. Emailed them, and they sent me more data that was not listed on their site. That impressed me. I stick with Alliant, and Hodgon Powders. Works for me. Bob

I just started reloading about a year ago and I have used only Hodgdon Clays 3.5 gr. I have used Rainier plated round nose and last time I used round nose coated Swamp popper bullets. The Clays burns fairly clean IMO.
But I have never tried any other powder. Has anyone else used Clays to let me know how it compares to say BE or other powders?

I like Accurate #2 with the 148 WC. Measures like water and has provided me great accuracy.

I use red dot for light 357 loads. I have 35 year old red dot and BE. I did a test last week with loads of 3 grains of each and 125 grain cast bullet. The red dot was slightly more accurate (one ragged hole at 50 feet) and MUCH cleaner than the BE.

I have a new supply of each powder and intend to repeat the experiment with the recent manufactured powders.

I haven't found any powder that will shoot more accurately than Bullseye....some shoot just as well but not better . 2.7 or 2.8 seems to just be a magical combination.
In my search for accuracy, I shot NRA Bullseye Match for years, I've tried Unique , 700X, HP-38 , Red Dot , 231, Accurate #2 and #5 and long discontinued Alcan #5. When necessary I use Red Dot in place of BE , it's just as accurate in my book.
None beat Bullseye in the accuracy department!
I don't believe the burning rate adds to recoil, 2.7 grs of BE is the softest recoiling load I know of.
Gary

Still shooting 2.7 gr BE with the 148 gr HBWC.
Messed around with 2.6 but come back to 2.7.
Shot a few RN with 3.2 gr. nothing was as accurate as the 2.7 -148 combination.
BE, It fouls the pistol but its on target !
Thanks for all the suggestions.

Faster burning does not add or lessen recoil. It's all decided by the velocity of the bullet if the bullets are the same weight.

What fast burning powder does is produce a very sudden but predictable burn, which can propel a bullet at a slow but predictable velocities mak ing it ideal for target shooting.

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"He was kinda funny lookin'"

2.8gr AA#2 is a great load. Never compared it side by side with BE, but I can tell you it is a nice light-recoil load.

Ramshot Zip is right beside HP-38 / W231 on the burn rate charts . It feels softer recoiling to me than the other 2 . I have to work up loads for my fiance that shoot softer recoil in 38spl and 9mm . She says the same .

If you're satisfied with your load as is, look no further. If you have some experimental inclination, as many handloaders do, get two or three more powders, and do some serious evaluation by shooting groups at 25 yards from a good benchrested position. Shoot enough groups to provide solid, meaningful information. I've used this simple method for decades and it has worked well.

I think the OP asked for loads for powders slower than BE. I have been experimenting with AA No.5 lately and like 6 gr in 357 magnum cases under 148 gr plated DEWC or HBWC which I believe makes a load equivalent to 38 special +P. It works for me shooting unsupported 2 handed DA at 25 yards from my various barrel length S&W revolvers. Recoil isn't really noticeable to me with this load.

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Accuracy supercedes Speed

I guess it is all in what part of the question you focus on. While he mentioned the idea of slower powders, it was in the context of creating rounds with a milder recoil than those loaded with Bullseye.

The end goal of the question being lighter recoil - not necessarily using a slower powder. If a faster powder will give less recoil I got the impression he's open to that idea too.

At least that's the way I read it. Correct me if I'm wrong about that Al W.

I think you need to ask yourself -WHY- you would consider a change. There are many reasons to change from one powder to another. However, I will submit the idea that using economy as any facet of the argument when loading flush wadcutter ammo in .38 Special... makes a nearly ludicrous argument.

If we use the heavier 2.8gr charge weight... one pound of powder rolls 2,500 rounds of ammo. If the powder is $20 a pound, your out of pocket money is eight-tenths of one Abe Lincoln penny per shot spent in powder. That's forty cents per 50-rd box of ammo that you spent in powder.

Let's say you wanted to move to Vihtavuori for xxxx reason, and your LGS has you at a full $40 per pound by the time you leave with the expensive fairy dust (wow, that's a heap of cash, I've never in my life spent that much money per pound for smokeless powder), you are now talking 1.6 cents per loaded round. That means you just spent FORTY CENTS more for a single box of 50 rounds of your ammo. Forty cents!!! Used to be able to buy a pack of gum with forty cents!

And if economy is your game, why in the heck are you buying one pound cans of smokeless? That's another thing I don't do. I buy 4's, I buy 8's. I think it's nutty to buy single one pound cans of powder.

I use Bullseye exclusively to feed my Model 52 pistols and I'm very happy with it. My 2.7gr Bullseye under a 148gr HBWC runs about 720 fps average and my 2.8gr Bullseye under the same slug from the same Model 52 on the same day runs about 750 fps average. Both are subject to change depending on the day and depending on how I hold the pistol while the Chrony looks at 'em.

If you want to try something different, DO IT, and enjoy the variety and experimenting that goes along with the fantastic hobby of handloading. But if you are making 2.8 grain loads... please don't tell me that economy is the driving factor. Because I say that is a ludicrous argument.

Good argument on economy. Assuming equal charge weights/rounds per pound, unless a guy is shooting 500 rounds at a whack, the price difference is pretty negligible.

On the other hand, if you DO shoot 10 boxes at a whack, the $4 you save will pay for loading one more box of them - and you can shoot 11 boxes for the price of 10

Just another way of looking at it.

Hey I just reread post No.1 twice. The 2 questions the OP explicitly asked were , what slower burning powder would you guys suggest? And, what's good? I posted answers to his questions based on my recent experiences which I noted. I also addressed recoil in my answer.

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Accuracy supercedes Speed

I STAND CORRECTED.

I was thinking of a different thread where the OP was in search of a lighter recoiling load for his wife/girlfriend/other to shoot.
My bad. Carry on.

I load AA #2 under a 148 gr WC with good results.

I have loaded that 2.7-3.0 Bullseye and Red Dot for many years, loaded other powders but haven't really noticed a difference in recoil at that powder amount in any of them. I do like Titeground, 231, CFE pistol,etc. Always find a reason to go back to BE and Red Dot in .38 spec. If you like it, load it and shoot it.