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Old 08-31-2017, 08:11 PM
Al W. Al W. is offline
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Hello everyone.
I've been loading 148gr WC over 2.7gr Bullseye and have been doing well with it .
My scores are coming along.
Question is what other powders might I try for bullseye shooting .
One of the guys at the club likes the Vihta Vuori N320.
He was saying that the Bullseye was such a fast burn that it will produce more recoil than a slower burning powder.
So what slower burning powder would you folks suggest ?
Whats good ?
I like shooting the Alliant product. Under 20 bucks a pound vs 37 for the imported stuff.
Seems silly to spend the extra $$ if theres something that does the job with out the imported price tag.
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Old 08-31-2017, 08:20 PM
mtgianni mtgianni is offline
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I would not listen to anyone that wants to change from 2.7 or 2.8 gr BE unless it became unobtainable.
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Old 08-31-2017, 09:53 PM
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Finding Bullseye up here has been spotty at best. Not slow burning, but I use either Winchester W231 (3.0grains under a 148g HBWC) or Winchester WST (2.7grains under a 148g HBWC).

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Old 08-31-2017, 10:00 PM
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Too much recoil with 2.7 grains Bullseye??? There are other powders out there that will work but you aren't going to get much less recoil than that load.

Unique Will work. Win 231 will work. N320 will work. None of them will be any better.
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Old 08-31-2017, 10:35 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by reddog81 View Post
Too much recoil with 2.7 grains Bullseye??? There are other powders out there that will work but you aren't going to get much less recoil than that load.

Unique Will work. Win 231 will work. N320 will work. None of them will be any better.
Ha , yep thats what he said.
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Old 08-31-2017, 10:44 PM
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I use Titegroup or CFE by Hodgdon. Recoil, what recoil?
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Old 09-01-2017, 12:57 AM
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Another vote for 231. I use a 158 SWC with 3.4 grains of it.
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Old 09-01-2017, 04:23 AM
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Here is a wad cutter chart. Jump in feet first.
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Old 09-01-2017, 04:29 AM
Wise_A Wise_A is offline
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Hah! I'm in good company here.

You can't fault 2.7/2.8 of BE for anything.

VVN310 will probably burn a little cleaner, it's just as fast.

WST is excellent. I use 2.5 gr.

I have lately been experimenting with HP-38/WW-231. I tried 3.5gr and found it very accurate, and thought it had roughly the same recoil as BE, but softer in the hand. However, it's been a couple months since I've shot 2.8 of BE, and I've shot a lot of .44 Mag between then and now, so my Recoil-o-Meter is a bit off. I'm going shooting tomorrow, I'll bring some 3.5/HP-38 and some 3.2/HP-38 (the lightest I can get my measure to throw), and some 2.8/BEs, and try and post back. I may wind up needing Wise_A Sr to judge.

Speaking of...I thought I'd try and get rid of my experimental pound of HP-38, and now I'm enjoying it in .45 ACP and .38 Spl immensely.

When I tried to get rid of that "awful" 700-X I hated in .38 Spl and .45...I discovered it was amazing in my 9mm target loads.

My powder collection refuses to shrink.
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Old 09-01-2017, 07:03 AM
Forrest r Forrest r is offline
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2.5gr of either clays or wst
2.7gr bullseye
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Old 09-01-2017, 07:28 AM
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For accuracy, there is a reason that the 2.7 gr BE over a 148 gr WC is THE classic bullseye load.
That said, I've found that Tightgroup behaves VERY close to BE in like amounts. (There are even side by side in powder burn rate charts btw). Another good option would be W231/HP38.
If it were me, I'd get a lgs to order me a 8# can of BE with their next powder order and be done with it.
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Old 09-01-2017, 09:06 AM
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Alliant has a new powder out, SPORT PISTOL, extremely mild recoil with 148gr WC loads. It is likely well worth a try, the load data shows 2.7gr w/HBWC, this works very well for me with flush set 148 WC's.
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Old 09-01-2017, 09:35 AM
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"He was saying that the Bullseye was such a fast burn that it will produce more recoil than a slower burning powder."


This is the reverse of the truth. It takes MORE of the slower powder for a safe charge, and more powder ejected equals more force backward. Tell him "the old physics professor" said to look up Newton's Second Law. Better yet, don't trust anything he says.
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Old 09-01-2017, 12:16 PM
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I use Power Pistol for 38spl and +P.

With all the powder options available, there will be many different varieties that are all pretty similar in performance. So it ultimately comes down to personal preference and what you have access to.

I personally like Alliant products too. Very affordable and good quality. I have a wholesale dealer local to me and can buy all my supplies from them at dang near wholesale costs. I started with Alliant and don't plan on switching. The good thing about my reloading is, all my calibers are pistol ctgs and therefore I can get away with just two powders on hand, Power Pistol and 2400.

I wouldn't mind trying Bullseye due to the low grain weight used. Maybe one day.
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Old 09-01-2017, 04:35 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OKFC05 View Post
"He was saying that the Bullseye was such a fast burn that it will produce more recoil than a slower burning powder."


This is the reverse of the truth. It takes MORE of the slower powder for a safe charge, and more powder ejected equals more force backward. Tell him "the old physics professor" said to look up Newton's Second Law. Better yet, don't trust anything he says.
Weeelllllllll.....

There's a bit of conflicting thought that frankly comes down to personal preference.

One thought, as you state, is that you're converting X grains of a solid into an equal mass of a gas (and other assorted solids) that are then propelled out of the barrel. In other words, using less powder to achieve the same velocity means less recoil, because you're reacting and propelling less material out the barrel.

Speaking of which, a number of my old teachers were quite adept at converting X grains of lunch into an equal mass of gas, but I digress (and apologize...I couldn't help myself).

Another thought is that using a slower-burning powder spreads out the recoil impulse. The thinking there is (variously) that the reaction takes more time, and/or the bullet accelerates more smoothly, and the recoil is less "abrupt", which some people seem to prefer.

And still another thought is that faster powders do all of that faster, so the recoil impulse is shorter and less noticeable.

But really---everybody's right!

It comes down to a lot of things: personal preference, auto vs revolver, loading light vs minimizing recoil for a specific required velocity, and even (in the case of action pistol shooters) whether they're trying to minimize recoil or create snappy recoil that gets the sights back on target quicker.

It literally doesn't matter, recoil is very subjective and if you like a particular powder over another, then that's all it is.

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Old 09-01-2017, 05:08 PM
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I don't think I have EVER used anything for .38 WC except Bullseye or 231.
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Old 09-01-2017, 05:21 PM
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What Wise said^^^ + Pick a reloading manual, from any era, bullet maker, powder maker, equipment maker, it makes no difference. All will have target loads for the special. Some will have powders you have never heard of or are discontinued( I am currently shooting up a bunch of 450LS Win ball powder, that I bought many years ago, and found data in an old Speer manual) All will perform, some better than others. As Wise said, everyone has a personal choice and for them it is the right choice. However, you will be hard pressed to find a better powder and load of 2.7 grs. of BE. But you get to make that choice and you won't be wrong either..
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Old 09-01-2017, 05:27 PM
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You did not say what gun you are shooting it in and whether it is a hollowbase wadcutter (HBWC) or bevel base. If it is the HBWC you might try WST or 231. A lot of bulleye shooters have switched from bulleye to WST. If your shooting HBWCs you might try a range of loads from 2.7 grains to 3.0 grains and see which is most accurate in your gun. With the WST try 2.5 to 2.8 grains and see what happens. If your shooting Bevel base wadcutters you probably need to increase to 3.0 to 3.5 grains of Bulleye to get the best accuracy. We expect a full report soon.
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Old 09-01-2017, 05:34 PM
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For that small of a charge, Bullseye works great if you have it, but it's kind of smokey and sooty.

Any "uber fast" powder would work nicely at that low of a charge
e3, Extra Lite, Red Dot, Green Dot, Promo, American Select, Clays, Titewad, Hodgdon (fake Red Dot) "IMR red", N310, Vectan A24 or Prima-SV.

My favorite powders for lite handgun loads are Red Dot and Titewad simply because I by them by the 8 pound jugs for shotgun reloading and have lots of it so 2-4 grains per shot of handgun rounds is nothing compared to 17-19 grains in a shotgun load.
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Old 09-01-2017, 08:47 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wee Hooker View Post
For accuracy, there is a reason that the 2.7 gr BE over a 148 gr WC is THE classic bullseye load.
That said, I've found that Tightgroup behaves VERY close to BE in like amounts. (There are even side by side in powder burn rate charts btw). Another good option would be W231/HP38.
If it were me, I'd get a lgs to order me a 8# can of BE with their next powder order and be done with it.
Thats exactly what I did a couple of weeks ago. I'm sitting on 9lb of BE. Works for me !
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Old 09-01-2017, 08:54 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Troystat View Post
You did not say what gun you are shooting it in and whether it is a hollowbase wadcutter (HBWC) or bevel base. If it is the HBWC you might try WST or 231. A lot of bulleye shooters have switched from bulleye to WST. If your shooting HBWCs you might try a range of loads from 2.7 grains to 3.0 grains and see which is most accurate in your gun. With the WST try 2.5 to 2.8 grains and see what happens. If your shooting Bevel base wadcutters you probably need to increase to 3.0 to 3.5 grains of Bulleye to get the best accuracy. We expect a full report soon.
1959 Model 14 S&W 3T- 148 HBWC hornady. I settled on the 2.7 BE after running 10 rounds of all the choices through the gun. The 2.7 seemed to answer all my questions. So I loaded 700 rounds and have been shooting that . Next run I may run some 2.6 and 2.8 just to see whats what and if I had my scale set right the first time around
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Old 09-01-2017, 09:18 PM
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Go with either Bullseye or W231. Only other powers you will need for pistol will be Unique and 2400.
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Old 09-02-2017, 12:37 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by iPac View Post
I use Power Pistol for 38spl and +P.

With all the powder options available, there will be many different varieties that are all pretty similar in performance. So it ultimately comes down to personal preference and what you have access to.

I personally like Alliant products too. Very affordable and good quality. I have a wholesale dealer local to me and can buy all my supplies from them at dang near wholesale costs. I started with Alliant and don't plan on switching. The good thing about my reloading is, all my calibers are pistol ctgs and therefore I can get away with just two powders on hand, Power Pistol and 2400.

I wouldn't mind trying Bullseye due to the low grain weight used. Maybe one day.
I was at my dealer, and picked up a pound of power pistol off the shelf, and when I put it on the counter, my dealer asked why??? I said I had heard that it was good, but the drawback is it's very loud! He said "but you use Bullseye...just stay with it." This is a guy turning down a sale...I use Bullseye, and am happy with it...
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Old 09-02-2017, 12:58 PM
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When I had a hard time finding Bullseye I bought Red Dot and loaded a bunch. 158grn lead RN, with 3.2 grains. Turns out both are excellent at 3.2. Red Dot has a much higher volume but shoots the same at this weight.

I use it in my ICORE matches.

Found Bullseye again last week and bought 4#. Should be set for pistol powder for a bit. But Red Dot is a viable contender.
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Old 09-02-2017, 01:19 PM
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Quote:
Al W. wrote:
So what slower burning powder would you folks suggest ?
Although there is some variability in how burn rate charts are compiled, Red Dot is generally considered "faster" than Bullseye.

If you're sure your friend recommending N320 isn't just enamored with the fact it's an import and thus must be better than anything domestic, then if you're looking for slower powders, your next choice in the Alliant stable is American Select and then Green Dot.

N320 slots in right between Winchester WST and Winchester 231 (a/k/a HP-38) which are both just a bit faster than Unique.

If I was shooting out of a 4 or 6 inch barrel, I would try Green Dot next. If I was shooting out of snubbie, I would stick with Bullseye (or its replacement Sport Pistol).
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Old 09-02-2017, 01:25 PM
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I shoot 2.9 grains of clays and a 125 grain bullet for all my
cowboy shooting. Clean and mild recoil.
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Old 09-02-2017, 01:37 PM
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Default I was pleasantly surprised....

I was pleasantly surprised at Red Dot for that purpose.

Titegoup works well and HP 38 does well with light loads.
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Old 09-02-2017, 01:45 PM
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I started my shooting and reloading for pistol around 1968.DuPont Hercules Bullseye was the 1st powder I used for 38spl and 45acp loading on Star Machines.

I've also used 2.3gr of Clays under 148gr HBWC and 158gr LSWC.Very clean burning powder when medium rolled crimp applied.

Most recently I've been developing loads in 357 magnum cases using Titegroop for target shooting.I'm at 4.0gr under 158gr hard cast SWC.

These work well in a 3" 66-2 and a 2 1/2" 686-4
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Old 09-02-2017, 10:43 PM
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Oh--almost forgot! I don't think anybody's mentioned AA #2. That's another one I've been playing with. Did extraordinarily nicely in a couple 9mm loads. It's also quite easy-metering and bulky.
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Old 09-03-2017, 08:01 AM
daniel lawecki daniel lawecki is offline
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Tite-group is another great powder 2.3 to 3.3. This is my go to powder works well with cast even in .45 colt.
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Old 09-03-2017, 09:29 AM
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A lot of powders will work, but Bullseye has been the standard for a long time. Why mess with success?
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Old 09-03-2017, 10:01 AM
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40+ years of reloading 38's and Unique has always worked well for me.

That and 2400, 296/H110, and a can of LiL'Gun for .22 Hornet is all I keep on the shelf.
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Old 09-04-2017, 10:13 AM
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I used to load Clays. Clean & economical. Used it for 12 gauge too. It became next to impossible to find. Red Dot, & G.D. are good for handgun loads for my purposes. I was looking for more Alliant Data. Emailed them, and they sent me more data that was not listed on their site. That impressed me. I stick with Alliant, and Hodgon Powders. Works for me. Bob
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Old 09-04-2017, 11:21 AM
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I just started reloading about a year ago and I have used only Hodgdon Clays 3.5 gr. I have used Rainier plated round nose and last time I used round nose coated Swamp popper bullets. The Clays burns fairly clean IMO.
But I have never tried any other powder. Has anyone else used Clays to let me know how it compares to say BE or other powders?
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Old 09-05-2017, 11:42 PM
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I like Accurate #2 with the 148 WC. Measures like water and has provided me great accuracy.
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Old 09-06-2017, 09:04 AM
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I use red dot for light 357 loads. I have 35 year old red dot and BE. I did a test last week with loads of 3 grains of each and 125 grain cast bullet. The red dot was slightly more accurate (one ragged hole at 50 feet) and MUCH cleaner than the BE.

I have a new supply of each powder and intend to repeat the experiment with the recent manufactured powders.
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Old 09-06-2017, 12:49 PM
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I haven't found any powder that will shoot more accurately than Bullseye....some shoot just as well but not better . 2.7 or 2.8 seems to just be a magical combination.
In my search for accuracy, I shot NRA Bullseye Match for years, I've tried Unique , 700X, HP-38 , Red Dot , 231, Accurate #2 and #5 and long discontinued Alcan #5. When necessary I use Red Dot in place of BE , it's just as accurate in my book.
None beat Bullseye in the accuracy department!
I don't believe the burning rate adds to recoil, 2.7 grs of BE is the softest recoiling load I know of.
Gary

Last edited by gwpercle; 09-06-2017 at 12:52 PM.
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