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Old 09-05-2017, 02:38 PM
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Default So What Caused This?

I found these in a sack of range brass my son brought to me a couple of months ago. I don't know what gun fired them or when or if it was even one of ours. The brass was a mixed bag of different brands and the only pieces that have been this way so far are Winchesters.

I don't ever look at 9mm brass for bulges, much less blowouts, but I'm going to inspect every piece in this bag and I may just toss the whole thing and not worry about it.

What could have caused this?
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Old 09-05-2017, 02:51 PM
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Looks like 9mm major brass fired in a slightly over size chamber. Bad juju.
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Old 09-05-2017, 02:54 PM
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I have nothing but trouble trying to reload WW brass, especially "white box" 9mm. Undersize primer pockets drive me crazy with this stuff. Don't buy it anymore.
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Old 09-05-2017, 03:07 PM
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Originally Posted by fredj338 View Post
Looks like 9mm major brass fired in a slightly over size chamber. Bad juju.
I was thinking it was in a gun that fired slightly out of battery.

Some of the other pieces seemed to have a slight bulge on one side with the opposite side looking normal.
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Old 09-05-2017, 03:12 PM
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Fired in a 40 maybe?
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Old 09-05-2017, 03:15 PM
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If it was fired in a 40 wouldn't the entire case have split?
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Old 09-05-2017, 03:30 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fredj338 View Post
Looks like 9mm major brass fired in a slightly over size chamber. Bad juju.
Looks more like someone took a Dremel to their feed ramp to "improve" it. It could be 9 major, or just a standard load if there is no support on the case. Looks like all the cases are failing at the same place, so in my mind that lets the ammo out of the equation. Everyone likes to blame 9 major for every case failure, but a lot of people shoot it without problems. I've shot over 200K 9 major rounds and the only thing that has failed is slides (I cracked a couple). In 9 major, every part of the pistol is a "consumable" (but it's still a lot of fun)

The gun that goes with those cases needs a new barrel (unaltered)
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Old 09-05-2017, 03:53 PM
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Pretty sure Bkreutz nailed it... Bubba'd feed ramp.

Brass would be "belled" above the base toward the case mouth if 9mm is fired from a .40 S&W chamber. I witnessed this a couple of times when shooters had matching Cougars and XDs in each caliber and inadvertently switched a .40 mag with a 9mm.

Nothing catastrophic happened, but the groups tended to be just a bit wild, shall we say?
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Old 09-05-2017, 04:55 PM
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Default Maybe a gun...

Maybe a gun that had an unsupported area like a .40.

I'm talking about early Glocks.
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Old 09-05-2017, 04:58 PM
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If it was yours it probably would have blown the stocks off of one side or blown the magazine out. Take your barrel out and push a round in the chamber and look at the web. You will sleep better.

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Old 09-05-2017, 05:02 PM
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Likely poorly reloaded ammo with bulged bottoms. Not seating in barrel to full extent.

Some pistols will not allow a firing pin strike unless the slide is full forward yet many do.

This is a prime example of the type that allow firing pin strike even when the slide is not completely forward.
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Old 09-05-2017, 05:13 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bkreutz View Post
Looks more like someone took a Dremel to their feed ramp to "improve" it. It could be 9 major, or just a standard load if there is no support on the case. Looks like all the cases are failing at the same place, so in my mind that lets the ammo out of the equation. Everyone likes to blame 9 major for every case failure, but a lot of people shoot it without problems. I've shot over 200K 9 major rounds and the only thing that has failed is slides (I cracked a couple). In 9 major, every part of the pistol is a "consumable" (but it's still a lot of fun)

The gun that goes with those cases needs a new barrel (unaltered)
This looks just like a case I have from a friends over loaded 9mm load. A possible double charge of TG. It was a gamer load so the pressure were up there but not quite proof load? The case head & blown primer look like it was fired in a 40 chamber. The primer pocket I enormous & the case head is also expanded but did not blow out. Gun was a CZ, gun was fine.
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Old 09-05-2017, 05:16 PM
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I don't think these were reloads. I just talked to my son and he got these cases from a range session at a family member's farm. My son was shooting a brand new Shield 11630 P/C. He said it shot fine and had no problems. There was another shooter there that had a few stovepipes and so forth and he is going to talk to him ASAP. I gave one the cases in the picture a closer inspection with a glass and it has small cracks in over a third of the rim.
When I have more details I'll post them up.
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Old 09-05-2017, 05:56 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by model3sw View Post

Some pistols will not allow a firing pin strike unless the slide is full forward yet many do.

This is a prime example of the type that allow firing pin strike even when the slide is not completely forward.
Yep.
I had a Beretta 92 that I got real tired of putting the grips back on!
I sold it to Mel Gibson for the Lethal Weapon movies.
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Old 09-05-2017, 06:07 PM
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Notice the shiny ring around the entire circumference of the case just forward of the extractor groove?
Cut a case in half lengthwise and you will likely see the the case is thinner right there. In other words, it will appear as a ring on the inside of the case.
This is evidence of excessive case stretching.
The barrel either has excess headspace, or the cases were trimmed too short. (Most likely the former.)
Combine that chamber, and this will happen.
If the gun fired out of battery, there'd be evidence of primer setback.
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Old 09-05-2017, 06:28 PM
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If the gun didn't fire out of battery how can that shard on the far left case be explained?
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Old 09-05-2017, 07:21 PM
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Quote:
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Notice the shiny ring around the entire circumference of the case just forward of the extractor groove?
Cut a case in half lengthwise and you will likely see the the case is thinner right there. In other words, it will appear as a ring on the inside of the case.
This is evidence of excessive case stretching.
The barrel either has excess headspace, or the cases were trimmed too short. (Most likely the former.)
Combine that chamber, and this will happen.
If the gun fired out of battery, there'd be evidence of primer setback.
IMO, not likely. Headspace in a semi can be fine with just the extractor holding the case in place. What actually happens when you shoot slightly shorter brass in a properly setup semi. Worn extractor, the case would likely move forward far enough to not fire.
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Old 09-05-2017, 07:23 PM
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If the gun didn't fire out of battery how can that shard on the far left case be explained?
A really heavy load, like that appears to be, will defeat the recoil spring & premature unlock is possible.
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Old 09-05-2017, 07:24 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bosquebass View Post
I don't think these were reloads. I just talked to my son and he got these cases from a range session at a family member's farm. My son was shooting a brand new Shield 11630 P/C. He said it shot fine and had no problems. There was another shooter there that had a few stovepipes and so forth and he is going to talk to him ASAP. I gave one the cases in the picture a closer inspection with a glass and it has small cracks in over a third of the rim.
When I have more details I'll post them up.
If that is anything but a reload, then the ammo manuf should be involved. I have never seen a factory round exit a gun like that, never. You originally stated the brass was brought to you as mixed range brass. So could be from anyones gun.
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Old 09-05-2017, 07:39 PM
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Quote:
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If that is anything but a reload, then the ammo manuf should be involved. I have never seen a factory round exit a gun like that, never. You originally stated the brass was brought to you as mixed range brass. So could be from anyones gun.
It's a private range and they clean up after they are done shooting. There were only three people there that day so I think with a little research I can get to the truth. Maybe.
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Old 09-05-2017, 07:40 PM
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Glocks have unsupported chamber ends, and I have seen many rounds of "hot" reloads from glocks bulged and blown out. Know the limitations of your firearm before trying to load hot for it.
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Old 09-05-2017, 09:06 PM
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Quote:
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Fired in a 40 maybe?
9mm case from a .40 looks like a blunderbuss--the front half of case spreads out to 10mm. Found several while scarfing brass up at a local range. I'll post a pic if I can find one here...

Here's a wacky thought...if it could happen: how about 9x19 fired out of
a 9x18, or 9x17 gun, that was sloppy enough to ignite?

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Old 09-06-2017, 08:26 AM
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Maybe a Glock 18...are there any class 3 weapons ever on that range?
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Old 09-06-2017, 08:41 AM
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Old 09-06-2017, 09:31 AM
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I have sold my full auto MAC-10 in 9mm. It fired from an open bolt, the original semi-autos fires from an open bolt also! As the chamber got dirty the cartridges would resist complete chambering and fire "out of battery" and bulge the brass so that they "belly" all the way around. On a single reloading about 50% would have head separation if fired in an open bolt gun. So my full auto empties were full size reloaded and if used it was in a S&W 39-2 and never had a problem.

The thing is, on that set of circumstances, I never had a side blow out! They were always complete head separations! I would guess and say the feed ramp was the issue also.

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Old 09-06-2017, 11:29 AM
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Those Mac10's are a lot of fun if they run right.
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Old 09-06-2017, 12:50 PM
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I inspected the rest of the brass in that bag and found several more that were cracked around the rim. The worst was this Federal that had a blowout at the base. Whoever fired these rounds had to know that something was wrong.
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Old 09-06-2017, 01:14 PM
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...maybe somebody got a little carried away polishing their feed ramp...

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Old 09-06-2017, 01:37 PM
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Quote:
Bosquebrass wrote:
I found these in a sack of range brass ... mixed bag of different brands and the only pieces that have been this way so far are Winchesters.
This failure has nothing to do with the brand of the brass.

Quote:
I don't ever look at 9mm brass for bulges, much less blowouts,...
Without meaning to sound flippant, you should check every case for bulges and other signs of being out of specification or imminent failure. Don't know if anyone was hurt or their gun damaged by these failures, but they very well could have been.

Quote:
What could have caused this?
The bulge around only a part of the diameter near the head suggests that the cases were fired in a gun with an unsupported chamber.
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Old 09-06-2017, 01:40 PM
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Quote:
Bosquebrass wrote:
Whoever fired these rounds had to know that something was wrong.
You would certainly think so.
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Old 09-06-2017, 01:48 PM
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On any piece of brass that might have been fired in a gun with an unsupported chamber, it makes sense to check the case for a bulge near the head that spans only part of the diameter of the case. Even if full-length resized, the resizer cannot reset the brass all the way to the we of the case because of the portion covered by the shell holder. Bulged cases that are again fired in an unsupported chamber may fail if enough of the original bulge again aligns with the unsupported area.

Lee makes a so-called "Bulge Buster" die that claims to reset the bulge and I will not dispute that.

For my own part, when I encounter such cases, I discard them out of an abundance of caution since saving three cents worth of brass is not worth destroying hundreds of dollars worth of gun or maiming myself.
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Old 09-06-2017, 02:07 PM
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Then again, the person that fired those rounds may not have even looked at the spent brass.

The next trip to the range could be duplicated, again !!

Here's your sign.....................
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Old 09-06-2017, 02:10 PM
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It appears to have been fired from a Glock that has a dirty chamber and the cartridge is not being allowed to fully chamber. That adds more likely-hood the unsupported portion of the brass will be allowed to blowout. Glocks will fire slightly more out-of-battery than any other strikerfired handgun which compounds the problem. ..........
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Old 09-06-2017, 02:20 PM
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Was it fired out of a Glock?

Years ago I picked up some .40 S&W brass at a range. More than one case looked like that, and it was fired from a Glock.

Tired, reloaded brass+an older Glock with a sloppy chamber=that.

Bill

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Old 09-06-2017, 02:25 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hdwhit View Post
On any piece of brass that might have been fired in a gun with an unsupported chamber, it makes sense to check the case for a bulge near the head that spans only part of the diameter of the case. Even if full-length resized, the resizer cannot reset the brass all the way to the we of the case because of the portion covered by the shell holder. Bulged cases that are again fired in an unsupported chamber may fail if enough of the original bulge again aligns with the unsupported area.

Lee makes a so-called "Bulge Buster" die that claims to reset the bulge and I will not dispute that.
Here is a cut and paste from the Lee instructions for the "Bulge Buster":

"Do not use the Bulge Buster Kit to reload for the
40 S&W Glock or similar guns with chambers that
do not fully support the cartridge due to the
intrusion of the feed ramp"

The truth is until yesterday I had never seen a 9mm case with a bulge on only one side. I've seen plenty that had the "belt" completely around the rim but never any 9mm that was "Glocked".
It's common knowledge about 40sw fired from an unsupported chamber but this 9mm deal is a new one on me.

And in case there is any question if in fact these were reloads they were not mine.
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Old 09-06-2017, 02:26 PM
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Actually the SW Shield will bulge 9mm brass with +P loads. I went round and round with Hornady about it. Also sent the brass to them and to Starline as at the time they made the brass for Hornady,
It was Critical DUTY ammo

It was like a mild Glock Bulge not a blow out.

The lose chamber is supported but lose which is why the Glock and Shield feed reliably.

It resulted in this warning from Starline!

9MM Caliber - Luger Brass - Small Pistol - Brass Cases
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Old 09-06-2017, 02:32 PM
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The brass case in post #1 with the peeled to the left piece of the case could not happen while in the chamber.

IMO that round fired with the case 30%-40% out of the chamber.
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Old 09-06-2017, 02:39 PM
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Actually the SW Shield will bulge 9mm brass with +P loads. I went round and round with Hornady about it. Also sent the brass to them and to Starline as at the time they made the brass for Hornady,
It was Critical DUTY ammo

It was like a mild Glock Bulge not a blow out.

The lose chamber is supported but lose which is why the Glock and Shield feed reliably.

It resulted in this warning from Starline!

9MM Caliber - Luger Brass - Small Pistol - Brass Cases

There aren't any pieces in the bag like the ones in your pic.
One reason I'm concerned about this deal is the fact that my son was firing a brand new Shield for the first time that day.
I talked to him earlier and he is dead certain that he was firing factory ammo in it at the time.
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Old 09-06-2017, 03:20 PM
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There aren't any pieces in the bag like the ones in your pic.
One reason I'm concerned about this deal is the fact that my son was firing a brand new Shield for the first time that day.
I talked to him earlier and he is dead certain that he was firing factory ammo in it at the time.
But was it +P ammo?? What brand, if he doesn't know than no one will ever know. I would think he would know what ammo was shot??

I have loaded my own +P ammo and have not duplicated the result, Regular ammo(factory or hand loads) is no issue in my Shield. I believe they may have made some changes to the barrel but not sure,
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Old 09-06-2017, 04:01 PM
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He doesn't remember what brand it was. The range session was two months ago and as cheap as he is I'm going to guess it was just typical rage ammo from Wal-Mart. He is going to bring the gun over tomorrow for a look see and we'll go from there.

He did tell me that one of the other guys there at the time was shooting a Glock. A "custom" 9mm Glock, he said. I don't know what custom means but I think I'm a little closer to figuring what happened.
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Old 09-06-2017, 05:30 PM
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Hot batch of ammo that was fired in a Bubba barrel to improve feeding. Brass loses every time.

There are many people out there with a Dremel tool that are "Metal Removal Wizards". They just want to make it better.
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Old 09-06-2017, 10:56 PM
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Looks like these cases were fired from a barrel with poor case support.

Quote:
Lee makes a so-called "Bulge Buster" die that claims to reset the bulge and I will not dispute that.
IMO, any case "smiled" to the extent that it requires a pass-thru or roller sizer is not safe for reloading regardless of what Lee says.

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Old 09-09-2017, 01:36 PM
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Two possibilities that come to mind, are either a handload that was too dam hot, or a feed ramp that is out of specs.
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Old 09-09-2017, 05:35 PM
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I bought some commercial 9mm FMJ reloads once, of which several blew out upon firing, the case damage looked much like the pictures. I was using them in a 1911 with a stock factory 9mm barrel. After it happened several times (no damage to the gun), I pulled all the bullets and reloaded the cases with the same bullets and a different powder charge.
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Old 09-09-2017, 07:06 PM
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It may not always happen, but you take a chance anytime you use range pickup brass. Once-fired 9mm brass with the same headstamp is very cheap. Other once-fired brass is far from expensive.
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Old 09-09-2017, 09:48 PM
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Quote:
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Glocks have unsupported chamber ends, and I have seen many rounds of "hot" reloads from glocks bulged and blown out. Know the limitations of your firearm before trying to load hot for it.

After I asked a bunch of questions it looks like this is the answer:
Gun show reloads fired in a Glock that "may" have been modified in some way. My son was firing Federal Eagle factory standard pressure ammo in his Shield that day and the other two shooters there were shooting reloads from an unknown source. It seems to me that the guy firing the gun that was blowing out the cases would have known that something was wrong but I guess not. Like Nevada Ed said above "Here's your sign.....".
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Old 09-10-2017, 07:29 AM
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"Glocked" cases is the reason I sold the only .40 I ever owned and just stay away from it altogether. I'm a brass scrounging reloader and the risk of running into problems just doesn't seem worth it. I'm disappointed to see this in 9mm.
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