Hi guys,

I need some advice on how to prevent my S&S coated bullets from losing the coating in the loading process. I have a Dillon 550b press. I've tried various bell widths.

I spoke with S&S and they said that you definitely don't want to compromise the coating since leading could occur.

The two cases on the left have a pretty good bell on them...causing the bullets to often lean over once placed on the case. I don't care for a bell that wide since a lot of time is spent going back and realigning the bullet so its level.



I didn't test a whole lot of bullets but in these 4 the wider bell caused more of a coating loss.

Please advise.

Thanks,
Dave

Have the cases been cleaned with media before reloading?

I always clean with the sonic cleaner or the pins and cleaning fluid after depriming but once I need a few extra cases to round out a box so I picked out a few clean ones and resized them skipping the usual cleaning ritual. When I tried to seat the bullets there was a lot more resistance and the lead bullets shaved a small amount of lead from the edge of the base.

When you place bullets on top of the cases you must do your best to place it straight up and use a little pressure to secure it in the case mouth.

You can't just rest it on top of the case and hope it doesn't tilt over.

I use mostly bevel base cast lead bullets and bell the case mouths very little.

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NEVER GIVE UP YOUR GUN

If adding more flare doesn't cure it, I'd suspect something is not aligning right in the seating die. Either because it's fouled or it's not true during seating. Try taking it apart and cleaning it. Also assure you align the bullet perfectly and then (slowly) raise the ram.

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Dave

This used to be a non issue but when loading coated the case bell should be even on all cases. That requires that all are trimmed to the same overall length. Too short and you run out of bell, too long and it get excessive. I would suggest those cases are different than the ones you set up your dies with.

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I have found that not all coatings are equal. Try a different supplier.

Thanks guys. I checked the seating die and it was a little dirty with lead build up from loading swaged bullets. I cleaned it out and reduced the bell some. I made sure the bullet was level and went slow. Same problem. I don't know how to tell if the seating die is perfectly aligned.
My brass might not be clean enough and creating friction. I clean with corn cob media... In some of the pulled cases I can see red marks from the coating.

The brass is all from one vendor...but I have never done the trimming step.

I'll call Dillon tomorrow and see what they say.

Thanks,
Dave

Have you tried a Lyman "M" die?

If you have a micrometer, measure the bullet diameter of three bullets. Is it excessive, i.e., greater than .452"? With a cast lead bullet that is conventionally sized and lubricated, a bullet as large as .453" might seat okay without scraping anything; don't know if this will work with coated.

As for trimming cases, you should never have to do this with .45 ACP, even of you use second-rate mixed range pickup brass. Adjust your case bell where the shortest case will have an adequate bell. This will mean longer cases will receive a slightly excessive bell. This will reduce case life a small amount, but that disadvantage is offset by the convenience of having adequate belling for all cases.

Interesting Dennis, I have not.
I read on another forum that this would do the same thing but will allow the powder to drop. If I'm understanding it correctly...it increases the inside diameter of the case a little more than the Dillon die.

Mr.BulletFeeder by DAA Powder Funnel - Dillon

Here's a video of that funnel. Pretty interesting.
Mr.Bulletfeeder(R) by Double-Alpha - Custom powder funnel - YouTube

When you call Dillon ask them for the alignment tool. It will help you to get your press perfect. It is good for both 550 and 650 presses.

Do you have a properly-fitting seating punch ? Even with the bevel base, trying to seat those SWCs with a RN punch could give you a lot of headaches.

Larry

Thanks for the tips. I'll ask for the alignment tool.
I measured the bullets and they are .452 and that's what is says on the box.
I did a lot of searching and some people say its a case bell issue. But, I don't think that's the issue since I tried a bunch of different widths.
Anyway, I'll follow up with what Dillon says. If they don't have a good answer I will call the bullet makers back since I'm sure they should have a good solution. Thanks,
DF

Yes, I checked that earlier. I have the Dillon one for SWC or flat...and one from Unique Tec that was supposed to be even better. Same issue of scraping with both. Thanks,
Dave

I'd do 2 things:

Test the bullets by using the "smash" test. Hit/smash the bullet with a hammer, the coating should stay on the flattened bullet. Do this to every order of coated bullets you buy.

Use either a custom expander or a lyman m-die. Factory expanders are made for the short/smaller in diameter jacketed bullets. Cast/coated bullets are longer in the body and as you've found out. The coating can easily be scraped off when seating.
A custom expander I made for the 9mm next to a factory expander.


The lyman m-die is designed for the longer bodied bullets and has a step in the top of it that makes a shelf in the top of the case that starts/keeps the bullet straight for seating.


A 45acp lyman m-die next to a factory expander die.


I used cast bullets for decades and have either used the lyman m-dies or made my own long bodied (with shelf) expanders. Never had a problem with cast/coated/swaged lead bullets.

Slightly chamfer the inside edge of a couple of shells and try it. The edge could have burrs. I found this issue with my .223 loads and it corrected the problem. Although I have never had this issue with pistol rounds and load copper plated bullets.

Does this loaded ammo lead your gun barrel? I suspect that this coated scraping happens on thousands of bullets with no leading in the barrel. You think you have a loading problem with coated bullets but the real question is "Do you have a leading problem after shooting the ammo?"

Load and shoot 10 rounds, a leading problem will be obvious.

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^^^^^I agree.

Some coating is scraped off all coated bullets as they are seated.

As long as you're not getting leading in your barrel, I wouldn't worry about it.

Expand your cases just enough that the bullet can stand up straight on its own in the charged case. No more.

As long as you're not getting a pile of shaved coating on your reloading press, I wouldn't worry about it.

Yep. Unless you are actually experiencing excessive leading, you have no problem And from the pictures, you are clearly over-belling your brass, which will result in work-hardening and early failure of cases.

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Pisgah

As 1 poster pointed out try putting a charmer on case mouth. I always put a slight chance on all my cases first time reloading. Then it stays there and no reason to ever do it again. Just helps bullet slide down without catching on edge of case.

Since it is a Dillon die set, I am assuming you are seating & crimping in separate steps? I went with a Hornady seating die in my 650 setup. It has a sleeve to align the bullet as it seats. This reduced the scratching of the coating by quite a bit. I recently had a friend regrind my powder thru to be a 'M' type flare. This pretty much eliminates any possible coating scratching.

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I also recommend the Lyman type "M" expander, the Lyman "M" die patent expired and I have newer Redding dies with this type expander.

Below center the Redding type "M" expander.



I also use a Lyman type "M" expander when loading for my AR15 rifles. This expander allows the bullet to start straight into the case mouth and reduces runout.



As you can see above the second step is .002 larger than bullet diameter. I normally place the bullet in the case mouth pushing it into the second step by hand then seat the bullet in the press.

The Lyman M die is designed to properly expand and bell a case for cast bullets. After using one , in place of your factory expander which is sized for jacketed bullets, cast bullets are usually .001" or .002" larger than a jacketed bullet ergo the scraping off of the coating. You need to use a M-die , or something that works like an M-die, NOE makes a nice little M type insert for use in the Lee Universal Expander Die, any time you are loading the larger softer cast bullets. The coating is just a paint and scrapes off easily. The M-die solves that problem.
Gary

Awesome. Thanks for all the input. I understand now.

I have not shot the coated bullets yet. So, it's probably a non issue.

Thanks,
Dave

Bigedp51,
Good to know! I have a LOT of .223 to load!

Hi guys,

The load shot well and didn't have any leading. I shot it from a clean barrel and shot eight groups. The first two groups were in the 5 to 6" range at 50 yards. I was probably me not being consistent with my technique.

Here's my two targets set up on the 50 yard line with the CZ97b on the rest.




I was in the zone for the one on the left.




The two best of the day.

Have the cases ever been chamfered on the inside?

Nice shootin'!

Something else to consider. The damage I see in your pics makes me wonder if you used an impact puller to disassemble those rounds. If you don't put something in (like a bit of loosely wadded paper towel) to deaden the impact, when the bullet finally leaves the case, it will tend to rebound off the bottom of the hammer and then hit the case mouth, gouging the base of the bullet. i.e. You may not have scraped the coating until disassembly.

Thanks guys. The cases have never been chamfered. I tried to go easy on the impact puller to prevent the damage. But, good point on putting something in the puller to deaden the impact. I never thought of that.

Well, I'm calling the load good. It shoots well and doesn't lead. I'm going to order more and keep loading with no changes.

Thanks,
Dave