I'm ready to start reloading 223 - just need the die set. After some research a while back, I had pretty much decided on the Forster Benchrest set at about $80. It seemed to be a nice middle ground.

I had the Lee FCD in my cart at Amazon and then saw the Lee 223 3-4 die set pop up for like $40, and I could get it by this weekend. I'd rather buy the nicer set, if its worth it, but the Lee gets good reviews, too, it seems.

What makes the Forster double the price of the Lee? Will you get better ammo? For now, I'm only shooting out of AR's, but maybe someday would like to be able to produce high-accuracy .223 ammo. For those if you working with the Lee, why'd you buy the Lee? And vice versa, for those of you with more expensive sets, what made you buy those?

Although with these 1000k round cases coming down in the $250 range, I'm also wondering if all this work is even worth it...but it seems like I've got almost $200 worth of little things in my shopping carts just to be able to load the 223 in the first place.

The Forster would be great for extreme accuracy, but to see a real benefit you should be turning case necks, weighing brass for consistent lots, etc. All the methods for consistent benchrest quality ammo.
If you are loading for volume to shoot in your AR and still want to make good quality ammo for the .223 I'd take advantage of the carbide dies available. 1/2 the cost of the Forster and much faster plus they will size the brass to feed well in the auto loader.

Here is an example.

RCBS AR Series Small Base 2-Die Set Taper Crimp 223 - MPN: 11107

__________________
Straight shootin'
SWCA#2439

Forrester/Bonanza were to companies that merged just a few (maybe 12)years ago. Bonanza invented the sliding "collet" you see in many competition and banchrest dies. The Micrometer adjustment I first saw on Layman dies in the mid 80's. The patens ran out and you'll see better versions of both in the Redding Competition line.

You didn't say what type of rifle you have or plan to get. These style of dies are not the best for AR-15 and related systems. They are great for single shot and bolt action rifles though.

For the AR platform I think the standard Small Base or the newer Carbide design by RCBS would serve your needs best. (I loaded over 20,000 round with my Small Base set, but gave that set to a Brother-In-Law about 8 years ago. He loads all his AR ammo with them and is very satisfied!)

Ivan

You can load good ammo with Lee dies, I have several sets, the difference in price is due to the extra hand fitting and finishing.
The Forester are nicer , the finish and fitting are nicer but you pay for nice.
Will Forester Dies guarantee more accurate ammo...NO. The person and his experience loading will determine that. The dies are just a small part of the total . Most Lee dies are properly dimensioned, and will seat bullets fairly straight . You might find a die that's off but Lee will replace it. The Forester will more than likely be correct in all aspects, more quality control...the extra cost.
If you can afford the better dies, being a beginner to it all, they will make it a bit easier for you to reach the accuracy you desire.
After 50 years of reloading I can make the Lee dies work, I've picked up a few tricks .
Gary

I use the Lee 4-die set for my AR and have been very happy with it. I also use Lee dies for my 204. My AR is capable of shooting 1/2" 3-shot groups with the ammo loaded with these dies and my 204 has shot 1/4" groups.

thanks for the thoughts all.

Yeah, right now I just have two 16" AR's and may plan a few more. No precision bolt .223s at the moment. But I guess I was just thinking maybe I buy the Forster now and be ready if and when. But maybe the different types of guns do better with different types of dies?

So with the small base dies, I've seen these mentioned, but when I start reading about the small base dies, I've seen it mentioned a few times that it overworks the brass and that don't go to the small base until you have problems with the normal full length resize.

But if that's really the way to go with ARs....

Accuracy in bolt guns might be improved using neck-sizing dies; this can increase brass life, also. Note this only works if you limit specific brass to the rifle it was fired in. If you buy a bolt action 223, you could neck-size its brass while using standard full length sizing dies for your AR ammo.

In the last fifty+years of handloading, I guess I've had one or more die sets from most manufacturers, some of which are no longer in business. Maybe I've just been fortunate, but I can't recall any, regardless of price, that weren't good quality dies.

Based on almost 50 years of reloading and almost 40 reloading .223, for your usage, I'd strongly suggest the Dillon die set. You get a carbide neck expander button (and a spare), a really good seating die and a taper crimp die.

Slight downside: you need to read and follow the directions, setting the seating die is slightly different than other dies. Plus, you'll need to buy conventional adjustment nuts and a case gauge to properly set the sizing die.

I've used Dillon dies to load the .308 I used in long range target competition (600 & 1000 yards) with outstanding results.

Don't bother with the small base dies. When you read the instructions now, you see that small base dies are to be used for chambers smaller than SAMMI specs. (Not real likely with any semi-auto rifles.) If your sized round fits into the case gauge mentioned above and has proper headspace, it'll function fine.

You guys aren’t making this easy.....

The main difference with the Forster full length benchrest die is it has a high mounted floating expander. The neck of the die holds and centers the case neck when the expander enters the case neck. Meaning this die can not pull your case necks of center and induce neck runout. My .223/5.56 cases sized in this die have .001 or less neck runout.



The Forster and Redding benchrest seating dies holds the case and bullet in perfect alignment for straight in-line bullet seating. Again meaning no induced runout from tilted bullets or cases.



On all my RCBS dies I ordered Forster expander and spindle assemblies that greatly reduced neck runout. Below on the left a RCBS .223 expander raised as high as it will move. On the right the Forster expander assembly that replaces and fits the RCBS dies.



Below a Redding .243 FL die retrofitted with a Forster expander assembly to reduce runout and drag from the stock Redding expander.



Trust me, I have tried a few .223 dies testing for neck runout and concentric cases for my two AR15s and Savage .223 bolt action.
I worked in a large sporting goods chain store and got a very good discount and even free dies.



For my AR15 rifles I use the RCBS AR Series small base die with taper crimp retrofitted with the Forster expander assembly. On my bolt action I use the standard Forster die.

NOTE, for reliable extraction with a semi-auto the full length resized case should be .003 to .005 smaller in diameter than its fired diameter. This gives the case more "spring back" from the chamber walls when fired for reliable extraction.

I buy bulk once fired Lake City cases that have been fired in many different chambers. And using a small base die insures that the case has been sized closer to minimum SAAMI dimensions.

A small base die reduces the case diameter approximately .003 more and bumps the shoulder back .003 more than a standard die. "BUT" nothing is written in stone, I have a standard Lee FL .223 die that reduces the case diameter more and can bump the shoulder back more than my small base die.

If you are only using brass fired in your rifle you should be OK with a standard full length die. But if you use range pickup brass or buy once fired brass a small base die is good to have.

Bottom line, you will never go wrong using a Forster die and make very concentric cases and ammunition.

Your choice should be easy now...................Forster full length benchrest dies.
(and if needed the RCBS AR Series small base dies)

[QUOTE=amheck;139759679]So with the small base dies, I've seen these mentioned, but when I start reading about the small base dies, I've seen it mentioned a few times that it overworks the brass and that don't go to the small base until you have problems with the normal full length resize. QUOTE]

The odds are, you will lose brass before you wear it out! When at the range, I recover about 95% of my brass. When in the field, I'm lucky to come home with 50%.

A small base die by RCBS is not a die for under sized chambers, They started making them in 308 for M1A/M14 semi and full auto rifles! I got mine in '78 for the mini 14 and later the AR-15.

Remember any information you get off the internet is only worth what you pay for it!

Ivan

Man...I may just have to flip a coin. But I guess many of you have multiple sets of dies for the same caliber. I guess it’s not the end of the world.

So if I went with my first thought and got the Forster benchrest set, would adding the Lee FCD at the end be blasphemy? I am thinking about the 55g fmjbt with cannelure and I think you want to crimp those.

How would I know this? Failure to feed or extract issues at the range? I’m planning to get the Lyman case gauge if that will help me at all.

Lake City military and commercial made 5.56 and 7.62 ammunition made for the military uses the hardest brass. Meaning thee cases are made heavy duty and Ford Truck Tough.

A small base die does work you brass more, "BUT" the reloader can control the amount of shoulder bump. The amount of shoulder bump when the cartridge is chambered is your head clearance. And when the head clearance is excessive it will let the brass stretch beyond its elastic limits and fail. I use Redding competition shell holders to control shoulder bump for .003 to 004 shoulder bump on my AR15 rifles.



Below a British military .303 Enfield rifle at max headspace can have .016 head clarance. And when thinner commercial .303 cases are fired they can stretch a good bit. And if full length resized can fail after 2 or 3 reloads.



If you keep your shoulder bump to .001 to .002 for a bolt action and .003 to .006 for a semi-auto and not over stress your brass.

How Hard is Your Brass? 5.56 and .223 Rem Base Hardness Tests
How Hard is Your Brass? 5.56 and .223 Rem Base Hardness Tests << Daily Bulletin

Are Your Sizing Dies Overworking Your Rifle Brass?
Are Your Sizing Dies Overworking Your Rifle Brass? - MassReloading

NOTE, with Forster dies you can send them back to the factory and they will hone the neck of the die to your desired diameter.

If you're comparing the cost of plinking ammunition, you will probably not save an appreciable amount of money loading either 9mm or 223. There are many reasons to reload, saving money doesn't have to be one of them. I load so that I can say that in 40+ years, the only time I have bought factory ammunition was the first box that goes through a new gun. That way, if there's a problem, the manufacturer can't blame my reloads. After that it's all home-grown.

I started loading 223/5.56 in 1979. I have a standard set of RCBS dies (not small base). I load for two Mini-14s and two S&W M&P-15s as well as a Savage Axis. I have not had any problems with failure to feed or function with the standard dies in any of the four semi-automatic rifles.

Any of the major manufacturers will sell you a set of 223 dies that will produce perfectly good ammunition. I use RCBS because 1) their customer service is the best I have ever experienced and 2) they support a wildcat cartridge that I load for.

Forster and Lyman both make carbide expanders that can be added to any brand of dies. I found the Lyman assembly to be so flimsy it broke within the first 100 cases. The Forster works great, and minimizes the need to lubricate the inside of the case neck.

No, but probably not necessary. See below.

If you have good neck tension, crimping is not required even if the bullet does have a cannelure. Still, I operate on the rule that if it has a cannelure, I'm going to crimp into it, so I do. But you don't need a separate die to do it. All bullet seating dies will have a built-in crimping shoulder inside the die body. It is generally all you need.

The FCD not only crimps but performs a post-assembly sizing operation to ensure the loaded round will fit the chamber. I'm old enough and set in my ways enough to believe that if I assemble a cartridge and it doesn't fit then I've done something wrong and I need to fix the problem rather than adding an additional step to gloss over my shortcomings.

I use the red JP Enterprise gauge below to check my loaded rounds. The JP enterprise gauge is cut with a finish chamber reamer and closer to minimum SAAMI diameter than a Wilson or Dillon case gauge.

As you can see below the reversed Lake City 5.56 cases dropped further into the Wilson and Dillon case gauges. Meaning the JP Enterprise is smaller in diameter and if it drops into this gauge it will fit any chamber.



Bottom line most AR15 rifles are over gassed and can start yanking on the case before it springs back from the chamber walls. And this can chew up the case rim, so the small diameter cases do not get banged up as much.

I buy once fired Lake City brass because it is "MUCH" cheaper, and a semi-auto will throw perfectly good brass away and make you go look for it.

As I stated in another thread, I have a Savage 112V heavy barreled varmint rifle. No ARs at all. I have always used a .22 Hornady neck sizing die (which I also use for .220 Swift) as I do not need to worry about case interchangeability among different rifles. My bullet seating die is the typical standard RCBS, and it seems to do the job satisfactorily. At one time I was a bench rest shooter, but that was long ago. My present setup is as good as I need to get 1/2 to 3/4 MOA 5-shot groups with that Savage.

Your idea to retrofit - using Forster expanders, is interesting. Never thought of it.

Do you use the entire expander assembly (as shown below), or just the spindle, expander, & de-capper? Any issues noted?

https://www.forsterproducts.com/pdf/...izing-Dies.pdf

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Regards - GCF

Everyone's criteria is different, but I'd buy the the Forster FL Benchrest set first. Never had one of their die sets, that I didn't like. Way better then "middle ground" IMHO. If "needed" afterwards, I'd add an RCBS SB die to the mix.

A while back, spent an obscene amount of $$ on a Redding Type S Match Die Set, for my Rem700 LTR / .308. Almost immediately replaced the sizing die - w/ a Forster FL. Still using the Redding micrometer seating die from the set, as it's a real nice unit, & probably as good as the comparable Forster seaters - that I've used in the past.

__________________
Regards - GCF

I think that's what I'll do and then re-evaluate when I see how everything does in my guns. If I don't just pick something, I'm going to be researching forever and not reloading.

I was also reading about some brass and how maybe it isn't the best for range pickup brass. I have a case or two of Wolf Gold 223, which I hear is supposed to be pretty good for reloading. So I think I'll just toss away the 100 or so 223 cases I have, go shoot some of my Wolf Gold, and then grab those cases and start reloading those.

1. Using standard dies,the only time I ever had any issues with chambering, was on my bolt gun after the sizing die moved out of adjustment. I've NEVER had chambering issues with several semi-auto rifles in .223/5.56 x 45 mm. This includes with the ammo loaded with the sizing die slightly long. (My bolt gun chamber is minimum headspace, the slightly long ammo made closing the bolt occasionally need more effort than it should have needed. BTW, I bought and tried a small base body sizer and it didn't make any difference. Long headspace is long headspace.)

2. I've never had failure/difficulty in extraction.

3. I generally use Forster case gauges, but have several Dillon.

4. The Forster bench rest seating die may (or may not) have issues with cases that aren't uniform in neck dimensions. My .308 did until I readjusted the M die I use to uniform the neck tension to slightly flare the case neck. The bullets sit more uniformly vertical and now don't get marked by the seating die.

I will admit I've never had the issue with my .223 loads and find the micrometer depth adjustment really handy when I change bullets being loaded. I usually don't use that seater for .223 expect for bolt gun loads and the really, really long Barnes RRLP bullet. I do use an M die set to uniform and slightly flare the case neck on the bolt gun loads and for the Barnes bullet.

All the above is why I suggested the Dillon die set. It's what I've been using for all my .223 for several years-except for seating as noted directly above. BTW, no one has mentioned it, but you really, really should crimp your bullets for semi-auto rifles. The target shooters cringe at this but if the bench rest guys crimp, it's not an issue with range loads for a semi or across the course competition.

While trying to be helpful, some of the guys have been making this a whole lot more complicated than necessary.

Almost forgot, definately buy the Dillon primer crimp remover tool.

To the OP, Midway has RCBS .223 Rem two die set on sale right now for $29.99. I ordered a set last night. I've had Lee dies and I didn't care for them.

I use the entire Forster expander and spindle assembly as pictured for my RCBS dies. For the Redding dies the spindle assembly is cut to fit the Redding upper assembly. And a rubber o-ring is added under the lock ring to allow the expander to float.

I use the RCBS X die for my .223 and 7.62x51 gas guns with no problems in over ten reloadings on the thirty cal. The mousegun is new enough that the oldest brass is now on the second run through.

__________________
The triple smoker

NOTE, Dillon .223 dies are small base dies designed for progressive presses.

A small base die reduces the case diameter approximately .003 more and also pushes the shoulder back .003 more than a standard die. Meaning small base dies reduce the resized case to minimum SAAMI dimensions.

Normally if all "new" cases are fired in your rifle a standard full length die may be all that is needed.

If you buy once fired brass or use range pickup brass you might need a small base die. Nothing is written in stone and rifle chambers and dies vary in size.

I do not use case gauges to determine the amount of shoulder bump. I use a Hornady cartridge case headspace gauge and measure the "FIRED" cases headspace length and set my dies for minimum shoulder bump.



Bottom line a Wilson type drop in case gauge does not tell you your fired cases headspace length. Meaning you may be bumping the shoulder back too far.

I bump my case shoulders back .003 from their fired length for my AR15 rifles and .001 to .002 for my bolt action. And a drop in case gauge will not give you this information for minimum shoulder bump.

I did order the Forster benchrest dies last week and they arrived Saturday. Just now waiting on the lanolin for my DIY case lube and I can try out a couple cases.