I'm new to this forum. I have been reloading high-power rifle cartridges going back to 1967 however I'm new to reloading handgun cartridges and as such I'm checking and double checking everything I do and reading a lot...and it's amazing how varied the load info can be. For example:

Sierra lists 125gr JHP using Bulleye at 4.6gr min to 5.1gr max w/CCI500.

Lyman Lists 125gr JHP using Bullseye at 3.2gr min to 4.4gr max w/CCI500

Bullseye Lists 125gr JHP using Bullseye at 4.5gr period no min or max w/CCI500

Handloads.com lists 125gr JSP using Bullseye at 4.4gr w/FED100

In Summary, quite the spread 3.2@568fps with maybe a bullet stuck half way down the barrel or 5.1@1000fps and maybe unsafe over pressure.

Sooo...given what I know albeit limited when it comes to reloading handgun cartridges I'm thinking of starting out by splitting the difference (roughly) between min and max and going with 125gr JHP using Bullseye at 4.2gr w/FED100 primers at COAL 1.450. As a starting point does this make sense?

Alliant (Bullseye) data is the MAX load so use 90% of that as a start load if you use that data.

All sources of data will vary due to different bullets and test procedures, Pick one that is closest to your bullet.

Remember that 38 special also goes up into +P range so you have some leeway in charges

Yes, you can average them all and "interpolate" a 0.5 grain variance is not gonna matter.

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Still Running Against the Wind

You won't have any problems at 4.2 IMO.
I think I would start a little lower maybe 3.9 or 4 but that's just me. I just loaded 100 or so 125gn Extreme copper plated flat points at 3.6 and that's a little more than I was using for a plain 125 LSWC.

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"I gots to know"

Myself, personally, with a couple hundred thousand rounds of handgun loading in my time at the bench, I would NOT make that load.

Two biggest reasons for my position:
1) it's the flash gap in the revolver... an escape valve that exists and can bleed off precious and much needed pressure at the wrong time

2) in concert with #1, it's a jacketed bullet and not a lead slug and it will offer more resistance in the bore and simply due to that, it's more likely to get stuck and is much more difficult to remove if/when that happens

I'm not saying that I am sure a 4.0gr Bullseye/125gr JHP WILL get stuck, I am saying it certainly is possible.

For secondary reasons, consider that a 125gr slug inside a cavernous .38 Special case with a small charge of powder can also give erratic results... less prone to do so with a heavier charge. Also, depending on which gun(s) you intend to shoot these loads, you've got a tremendous margin for error on the top-end if you happen to be using a .357 Magnum. (.38+P max 17.5k PSI versus .357 Mag max at 35k PSI)

I would say that in a scenario where a low charge weight AND a light bullet is used in a large volume case... I do prefer a powder that meters well, and Bullseye does do that. Basically, I mean to say that while I don't like this load, I certainly like it FAR better than a light light with a light slug and Red Dot or Green Dot or other lousy metering powder.

In this situation... I would start higher and if you find something about the load that you DON'T like (recoil?), perhaps then consider dropping the charge weight incrementally or look for a different powder.

In my J frame snub nose, I loaded from 4.0 to 4.4 grs of Bullseye for practice loads.
This one revolver does not do well with 110/125 JHP style bullets for accuracy.
Lead 148 and 158 were the best performers, for me.

My lowest amount of Bullseye was at 3.3 grs with a lead "Cowboy" style 125gr bullet that did around 625fps.

Good luck.

Another consideration is factory sights on 38 Specials are often regulated for 158 grain loads.

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-jwk-
US Army '72-'95

The questions were whether 4.0 grains of Bullseye under a 125 grain jacketed bullet is safe and a good starting load for .38 Special. The answer is yes to both questions, based on both published data and 53 years of reloading .38 Special.

...which is pretty much 90% of the powder manufacturer's PUBLISHED DATA.

Your post indicates contemplating a 4.2gr starting point: at that point you are not yet exceeding 82.5% of Sierra's MAX (5.1gr X 0.825 = 4.205gr) PUBLISHED DATA.. I'm not sure if that's in their +P range or not, but it certainly should be much safer (from a pressure standpoint) than risking a squib from not using enough powder. 38 Specials are a great place to start reloading pistol cartridges exactly because of the velocity ranges for 38 Special, 38 Special +P and 357Mag. You don't indicate what you're shooting these FROM, but any modern 38 Special pistol marked "+P" should certainly handle 950+fps with almost any powder without any problem. Look at the Hodgdon's online website, put in 38 Special, 125gr & "any" powder: I see 34 loads, or so...

Unless you are truly searching for a so-called "powder puff" load for some reason (why?) I'd suggest 800fps (or so?) may be a much better starting point than something under 600fps for a 38 S&W Special. I'll shoot Xtreme's plated 125gr at 1000fps in 38 Special cases (and a bit higher in 357 Mag cases) all day long: targets can't tell the difference, BTW.

"Safe at 4.2gr of Bullseye?" IMHO, Yep!

Cheers!

5.0 grs of Bullseye with a 125 gr JHP chronographs a little slower than
factory Remington 125 gr +P loads out of my 1 7/8" J frames. 4.0 grs
would be a light load. I would bet that most factory +P 38 spl loads are
barely over standard pressure limits.

I'm going to go out on a limb here - and I'm sure I'll suffer the consequences! Bullseye is too fast burning of a powder for high volume cases with jacketed bullets. Maybe there's a background reason you want to use Bullseye? I use Power Pistol, right now, because that's what was available back before the election. It's still not optimal for .38 Special because it is too dense - a safe load for a jacketed bullet does not fill the case half-way. I think someone else mentioned this - I load much cheaper lead bullets for range plinking - and, for the most part, I do not handload jacketed rounds for self-defense. In the old days, when I first started reloading - there were fewer powders and the choices were easy. Bullseye for .38 and .45 lead target loads, Unique for mid-range loads and 2400 for fill-the-case .357 loads. To get back to the point, I would not recommend Bullseye, at all, for .38 Spec non-PlusP jacketed bullet loads. That said, Hornady, for their 125-g jacketed bullet, shows 4.5-4.7-g as safe and non-PlusP.

It makes a lot of sense !
I do it this way myself. Get at least three or four published min's. and max's , average them all and start in the middle.
After 50 years of reloading I've found the middle is usually the place you want to be. Not to light, not to heavy...it's the Baby Bear Load , just right. Or at least a good safe place to see if you want to go lighter or hotter.
Gary

I'd toss the Sierra data unless you're using that specific bullet. That data is the outlier. I look for excuses to go lower, not higher.

4.0 gr should be fine for a starting point. If it shoots good stop. If you want more performance there's better choices of powder.

I think they keep dumbing down .38 data in a nod to the ever increasing numbers of older guns out there.

The gun involved matters too. I'd look at this differently if I was shooting it in a 50 year old Spanish import Vs. a more modern Ruger Blackhawk.

I load 3.9gr of Bullseye with a Berrys 125 flat point and it shoots great. I never chrono'd it, but it sure shoots nice in my Model 10 with a 4" heavy barrel.

Since reloading manuals aren't exacting formula, I suggest new reloaders, when in doubt go with the lowest listed loads. Reloading manual data is results of what a particular lab tech found when the listed components and charges are used. Variations between labs, components (manufacturing lots) will vary so published results will not be identical.

For what it's worth, I started reloading the .38 Special in 1969 and used the most popular powder for that cartridge at that time; Bullseye. I learned safe reloading practices right from the start so "small charges in large cases equals trouble; double charges" does not apply...

About the data variations, as others have noted, there's differences in chamber and barrel dimensions, jacket material, core hardness and bearing length between the bullet makers. So, you're going to see different results.

Data from powder manufacturers is almost always developed in special test barrels (minimum land and groove dimensions and minimum chambers to give absolute worst case pressure scenario) in universal receivers. As a result, you'll likely never see their velocities for their given charge weight. Their data tends to produce lighter maximum loads than other sources. Not that loading to the max all the time is a good idea.

If you go to plated bullets, used median lead bullet data for the weight. I seem to pick up 100 f/s going from jacketed to plated in .38 with the same powder charge (not Bullseye).

If your .38 has fixed sights, remember that light bullets print lower than "standard" weight bullets. How much varies. It's a lot more with a 2" snubby than a 4" heavy barrel.

I appreciate all the feedback and thank each of you that took the time to offer valuable info and precautions.

I've loaded several rounds with Bullseye at 3.8, 4.0, 4.2 & 4.4 and will chronograph each as well as checking barrel all clear just in case of squib. Just got some new parts in for my Oehler 35 and assuming it's back to working I'll post fps results. The firearm is model 686 with 4" barrel, chambering 357 so I think I'm on good footing as far as any pressure issues.

Again, thanks for the help.

To answer your question:yes!
Qc

I’d start with 4.0grs Bullseye.

Lookin' good Charlie! Give us a velocity and accuracy report, if you get the chance.

Disregard this.... I feel like I got something mixed up and may have given bad info.

I may have been referring to Unique powder with this data,

Apologies.

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"He was kinda funny lookin'"

Just a note on COAL with revolver ammo. The OAL is set by the bullet manufacturer. They supply a crimp groove which is the correct position to crimp that bullet. The COAL will not match the data unless you are using the same exact bullet in the same brass trimmed to the same length as in the data. You should crimp in the supplies crimp groove and not worry about the length.

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Freedom is never free!!
SWCA #3437

+1 with post #21;

All copper or plated bullets with a cannelure...................
is a no Brainer for what the correct OAL should be.

Don't over think this one.


and if it does not work... (pistols)
get a different bullet!!

(saw that one coming )

Agree. 1.450 would put me about .05 from (above) the crimp groove, so I seated to groove and they measure 1.400 coal. good info, thanks.

You did good starting at a minimum load and loading in increments building up. This will tell you which load your gun likes the most. In the 686 I don't think you have to worry about the loads you mentioned. As a side note, I have loaded 4.2 bullseye under a 125 lead bullet in a J frame and it shot just fine. Good luck.

Good news my Oehler is working and as such velocity results on 125gr JHP using Bullseye powder and Fed primers is as follows: 3.8gr=739fps, 4.0gr=755fps, 4.2gr=785fps and 4.4gr=823fps. I first chronograph 5 rounds of American Federal 38 Special (not +P) 130gr FMJ at an average of 898fps and manufacturer list fps at 890. I did this just to establish a baseline and to validate chronograph is working. On average it appears that each 0.2gr increase in powder increases velocity by 28fps. Thus 4.6 may produce 851fps, 4.8 may produce 879fps and 5.0 may produce 907fps(which is pushing it in a 38 special but since I'm test firing a model 686 in 357 magnum I'd again be on safe ground). So I'm going to now load some 4.6, 4.8 and 5.0 and I'll post velocities. Any thoughts on what max velocities any of you shoot and are comfortable with ?

I'd be a little more careful with the extrapolation that 0.2gr increases give ~28fps increase. From the numbers you have given, it increases by 16, 30, 33. The pressure is likely to increase more exponentially than linearly.

It is an increasing amount each time, but also looks to be tapering off. Once you start getting diminishing returns of fps per increment of powder (which looks to be the next increment), I'd go no further, but that's me. The pressure will likely increase exponentially while the fps gain increases in ever-diminishing amounts.

I think 5.0gr of Unique under a 158gr lead,plated or jacketed bullet is a better load in 38spl cases than any of 125gr hot Bullseye loadings mentioned in this thread.

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NEVER GIVE UP YOUR GUN

One problem is that Berry's isn't a jacketed bullet. The OP is asking about jacketed.

I bet that your load shoots really well in your HB Model 10. It would in lots of guns!

A little late but, here's the results 4.6gr=858, 4.8gr=887 and 5.0gr=923. I think I'm going to settle in on 4.6gr and see where that takes me accuracy wise. Again I'd like to thank everyone who took the time to give good advice and help.

i was shooting with a friend the other day and he had a large quantity of the same Berry's bullet but with 4.2 gr of BE - a very accurate load in everything we shot them out of. Bullseye typically favors hard cast or plated bullets as opposed to jacketed.

Apologies.... Wayno

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"He was kinda funny lookin'"

Traditionally it has been thought that a jacketed hollow point bullet needed to travel at around 1,000 fps to get fairly reliable expansion. I don't know if that applies to the Sierra 125 gr. JHP you are loading. Of course you don't say what the intended purpose of your ammo is, either. Getting that 1,000 fps without pressure problems probably is going to require you switch to a different powder.

I just bought 2 boxes of Federal 38G (158 gr LSWCHP +P), has the deepest hollow point I've ever seen. Having said that, I have never seen expansion from any previous 158 gr HP design at .38 velocities. Decades ago, the Nyclad version of the 38G was supposed to be the New Big Thing. Exited the penetration box after penetrating 30" of tissue simulant. I could hear it rattling through the trees downrange. I'm assuming it didn't expand.

With different powders, you can safely exceed 1000 f/s with the 125 JHPs. That's close enough to the design envelope that they probably will expand. Isn't my choice either.

In view of the fact that THE standard target load for .38 Specials in the day was a 148 grain WC over 2.7 of Bullseye, the odds of any 125 grain bullet over 3.2 grains of Bullseye sticking in the barrel (aka squib) are slim and none. Slim left town!

Bruce

I had a box of a 100 JHP laying around for several years and figured I use them up doing some load development. 850fps is satisfactory for me, there not intended for anything more than range shooting. Once I've used them up I'll probably get some 125gr plated, develop a satisfactory load and blink away.

Charlie, I think you'll get better accuracy and economy with hard cast bullets over plated. I like loading 158 grain. LSWC bullets for general range shooting. You just have to load them hot enough to get a good seal to minimize leading in your barrel. A lot of folks like the coated lead bullets instead of those which are lubed traditionally. I've seen mixed reviews about the accuracy of the coated bullets. I haven't seen enough evidence of good accuracy to sway me away from traditional lead bullets. Have fun at the range with those loads you have.