Last weekend I picked up an old Model 10-8 from my LGS, and loaded up some 38 special to run through it. I put together two separate loads, one 50 round batch using 158gr LSWCs, and the another using 125gr JHPs (remnants of my 38 cal bullet stash). Both loads used Ramshot True Blue powder and CCI 500 small pistol primers, and both were loaded into reclaimed brass, American Eagle and Gecco brand.

When I went to the range yesterday, I found myself having quite a bit of trouble with light primer strikes on my reloaded ammo out of both batches. The light strikes occurred when the revolver was fired DA, and didn’t appear to have the same problem in SA, and would occur on 1 to 2 shots per cylinder. Restriking a second time usually would ignite the round, with only one case where a third strike was needed to achieve ignition.


An initial analysis on the situation was that this was a mechanical or functional problem with my revolver. My first thought was to check that the strain screw was tight and it indeed was, and there’s no sign of modification to the screw or mainspring (something I look for before purchase usually), that would cause light striking. I didn’t actually suspect that any of these things could be wrong as the gun has the appropriate trigger pull weight suggesting no modifications were ever made. My next thought was to check the firing pin, and it too was in good shape as well. Additionally, I did visually inspect the distance that the pin extends through the breech face when fired, and it definitely reaching the primers. I should also note that I did shoot a couple boxes of factory loaded American Eagle 38 special 158gr FMJ through this gun, almost completely in DA only without a single light strike as well.

So, ruling out mechanical issues with the gun, I am left with my ammo. I am a habitual user of CCI 500 and 550 primers, and have never had a light striking issue with any of them before. I have been using primers from the same case for 9mm loads, and my Sig P226 ignites them just fine, it just seems that the model 10 in DA cannot do so reliably for some reason.

So the question is, do I have a batch of primers that are extra hard for some reason? Has anyone experienced the same sort of thing happen to them?

Any thought or suggestions are greatly appreciated, thanks!




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Did you measure the distance the firing pin protrudes from the breech? Should be about 1/16". Endplay of the cylinder OK? I do dimly recall some noise about issues with the frame mounted firing pins. Extra length aftermarket are available.

Someone might have changed the mainspring out. Factory springs are fairly cheap. If you've got a trigger scale, hook the end.....just under the hammer nose if you've got one, in the notch under that area if not. While holding the trigger all the way back (so you're only measuring the mainspring tension), it should take at least 40 oz to pull the hammer back in case one, 48 oz if lower on the hammer. Slightly short strain screws aren't unknown from the factory.

Finally, user error: If you try to finesse the trigger stroke while getting the sights just so, there's a tendency of the finger not to pull the trigger all the way back, even to let it go slightly forward after hammer release. This can allow the rebound slide to creep forward and brake the hammer fall, causing a misfire. And, you can do this with the M&P semi series too. BTDT on both.

BTW, all this is assuming that you seated your primers all the way to the bottom of the primer pocket. None of this touchy-feely stuff, get them to the bottom. FWIW, Federal primers are generally the most sensitive. They're what I suggest/use in tuned revolvers. The fact that you got a misfire with AE factory suggests it's not this.

This "topic" comes up a lot.

Very rarely is it "faulty" primers, They are very reliable

The fact that factory ammo went bang usually means improper primer seating

Do you have another 38/357 revolver? Try your ammo in it.

If still in doubt a simple replace hammer and rebound spring would be next.

Get a fired primer and place under the strain screw for a start. The hammer doesn't go back as for in double action. It fixed my last purchase. I had to remove the side plate and stocks but it was a simple fix. You may wish to take a photo of the inside after removing the plate. I learned this trick on the forum a few years ago. Primers need to be at least level with the case. There are lots of primer topics at the very bottom of this page.

Oh NO !!! another hard primer post

Primer comparison question

Sounds like you checked the right stuff ,, strain screw ,, defective firing pin ,, high primers,, after market or modified parts..
( might also check / clean and make sure there is nothing keeping the hammer from a full hit on the primers..)

However you did say they worked with American Eagle ammo ?

Isn't American Eagle ammo made by Federal ??

OK ,,, I'm putting down the key board and backing away slowly..

Thanks for the response, I have done cursory checks on much of the items you have suggested, however I don’t suspect the gun to be the problem here, as, and I may have been a little unclear about this, the gun fires fine in SA or DA with factory loaded ammo.

There are however signs that someone had taken the side plate off at some point, but everything appears original and correct, sporting none of the usual hallmarks or a tuned or polished action. I suspect this model 10 was a duty piece, and saw more time in a holster than it did on the firing line. Lock up is still reasonably tight, there’s no push of or end shake, and really the only true signs of age is a loss of bluing anywhere a leather holster would make contact with the frame and barrel. Otherwise she shoots beautiful, tight groups with factory ammo and my reloads when they ignite.

This is a six shot group from last night, distance was a little beyond 10 yards indoors and utilized my 158gr LSWC loading. All shots were fired double action with only one single light strike.


I’ve put thought into your statement about user error, and there could be merit to the concept, however I have been shooting DA revolvers for quite some time, and never have had such issues before. I do spend a lot of time on and off the range working on my trigger pull consistency as well. The only DA revolver I’ve had issues with recently was a new production model 64 I picked up used, and had the action lock up rock solid on every other pull. I had thought that maybe I wasn’t following through on my trigger pull or release, and tried for week or so to figure out what was wrong before returning the gun to the dealer, who was also able to replicate my problem, and offered me credit toward something else.


So this leads me to the last suggestion you made: my primer seating. This could very well be where the problem lies, though I have been using the same RCBS single stage press, vintage Lee dies, and, in some cases, the same brass for a few years now with many different guns (Yes, I do inspect, measure and trim the brass as necessary), and without light strike issues. The problem that I do have with the particular 38 die set I have however lies with the primer seating. When seating primers for 38 or 357, the seating tool will sometimes get hung up on the shell holder and won’t push the primer all the way in. Early on in my reloading I actually had issues with the primer tool flipping the primers upside down when it caught the shell holder and then sprung loose, often ending with me wearing a primer upside down. I have however since learned how to prevent the flipping from happening, but the tool does still hang up from time to time.

I haven’t ever thought about the hang up affecting the seat depth of the primers, as I usually give them a good hard push once the tools properly lined up, so much so that in past batches with Winchester WSP primers, I’ve actually deformed the primer face a small amount in doing so. Whereas I am careful not to put too much pressure as to deform the primer, I’ve always thought I was seating them properly to an appropriate depth, maybe not? I suppose it’s worth analyzing next time I load a batch...







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I vote for primer seating. I had a similar issue with a 10-6 and realized I had not seated the primers with enough "oomph".

Shallow primer seating.

Have a blessed day,

Leon

I've had this problem before. A local gunsmith that used to build PPC guns explained it to me-
Under DA the action does not pull the hammer back as far before releasing it so the primers are not hit as hard. And CCI primers are harder than other brands. So combine those 2 things and you can have misfires in DA. In single action they will work fine. Choose another brand of primers for loads you will use in DA.

For what it's worth I have a Police trade 10-8 4" barrel. The only problems I've encountered with it is it doesnt like cheap Monarch brand ammo. I fire off a couple rounds every now & then the cylinder would jam. Found out the primers were backing out.

Now back to this issue. I use only Winchester WSP primers. I used to use CCI 500 & Remington 1-1/2 small pistol primers but with both of those I'd get maybe a light strike 1 out of 100. With the Winchester wsp, I get 100% reliability.

[QUOTE=mainegrw;139855470]t


""So this leads me to the last suggestion you made: my primer seating. This could very well be where the problem lies, The problem that I do have with the particular 38 die set I have however lies with the primer seating. When seating primers for 38 or 357, the seating tool will sometimes get hung up on the shell holder and won’t push the primer all the way in.""



Primer seating sounds like a good place to start looking. A couple years ago I started getting some light strikes. Had me scratching my head for awhile.. Turned out to be a screw on the under side of my Dillon what worked loose and wasn't letting the primer fully seat..
BTW, nice group , good shooting.

Unless the primers are bottomed out in the pocket...even if this means seating them below flush , you will have primer problems.
Very easy to fix .... hand priming tool solved all my primer problems, I no longer prime on the press.
Gary

With any revolver which has not had its hammer spring messed with (including backing out the spring tension screw), there should be no misfires with any primer brand. Primers less than fully seated can cause occasional misfires. Hammer springs can weaken over time, but that is more common with Colt springs than S&W.

...I've had a few duds with a sharp impressions from the firing pin both in reloaded and factory ammo.

__________________
"He was kinda funny lookin'"

Yep. In the NRA Metallic Cartridge Reloading Course I teach, I strongly suggest using a hand primer due to the superior "feel" you get when seating primers.

Don

__________________
NRA Cert. Reloading Instructor

I used to have the old-style Lee hand primer and I used it until it would barely seat a primer flush and sometimes not quite flush, much less bottom them out in the primer pocket.

Despite the priming tool failing to fully seat primers, no matter what brand, what type, or what gun I fired the rounds in--they all went bang on first try. Every last one of them.

Light strikes are a gun issue.

I've heard of some foreign primers being soft enough to cause problems with flowing around the firing pin.

__________________
"He was kinda funny lookin'"

CCI primers are some of the hardest I have used, similar to small rifle primers, which are unreliable in my experience, in double action, in a 686 / 586.

Federal small pistol primers are 100% for DA for me so far. They do flow really well too so you can tell different pressures.

Also (with a Dillon 550) I like to make sure primers are well seated, almost like crushing them in. Note: NOT whacking them in, primers are IMPACT sensitive, not pressure sensitive. Be smooth and gradual, but seat them in firmly.

It could also be a non-standard or modified hammer spring to lighten trigger pull.
I remember Skeeter Skelton articles where he modified the hammer springs.
They also sell reduced power hammer springs.

SMITH & WESSON K, L & N Frame Revolvers
https://www.gunsprings.com/SMITH%20&...3/mID58/dID264

You can check your primers by holding a straight edge across the base of the case. Also hand priming tools give you more "feel" when seating the primers.

I use mostly Federal and Winchester primers but have loaded many others and none of my new or older Smiths have primer issues. I put a light set of Wolf springs in a 686 and no issues with it.
All priming done on my LNL.

I’m still not sure what happened with my loads, and haven’t had the time to load more. I have however fired three more complete boxes of factory loaded 38 Special (one box American Eagle, two boxes Speer Lawman) through my Model 10 without a single light strike in either SA or DA, so I’m officially ruling the gun out of the equation at least...


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I find this to be a topic that is subjected to a lot of personal opinion. For example, CCI primers being harder than others. I've used almost nothing but CCI and Remington primers and can honestly say that in over 40 years of handloading, I've had only one primer fail to ignite its shell's powder and that was a Remington 209P shotshell primer. This took place at the Grand American World Trapshooting Championships and a Remington rep took my shell for evaluation and gave me 100 primers for my trouble. A letter that came two weeks later told me that the primer's anvil was found to be tilted.

The owner of the small local gun shop I patronize will not stock Remington primers because they are "too hard." Because he only stocks the least costly brand of most products, in this case imported primers, I took that with a grain of salt because Remington primers cost more than his preferred brands.

Based upon the quantity of primers and wads that I bought each year for my handloaded trap shells, I shot about 10,000 rounds of handloads sparked by 209P primers a year for 16 years and I can't guess how many handgun and rifle primers I've used over those 40 years. If every product we use enjoyed the minuscule numbers of failures that primers do, wouldn't life be grand?

Ed

FWIW, I use the RCBS hand primer with the cast aluminum handle, and "pincers" that grip anything from .32a*p to .45a*p. It does a surpurb job of fully seating primers. Much better than press mounted versions, at least for me.

__________________
Certified Curmudgeon

Well...
Perhaps we can agree to call it an opinion that CCI makes hard cup, harder to ignite primers and Federal makes the most easy to ignite primers... but these are the opinions of long, LONG time and very established folks, perhaps even experts. Anyone who reads posts on a forum has learned (or will learn) to separate the wheat from the chaff. If you elect to not buy in to the above opinion... fine. Your loss. Revisit the opinion after you've done your own testing.

On the subject of primer seating, read post #18 above. I often suggest to new handloaders or anyone who is struggling to seat primers properly to take a towel, the size of a small bath towel and fold it over and cover the piece of brass that you are attempting to prime. With your safety glasses on AND the towel as an extra barrier, now you should slowly and willfully attempt to CRUSH the primer fit.

This exercise isn't to suggest that you should be damaging primers or stressing your equipment -- the exercise is to show you hands-on evidence that your equipment AND especially that your primers CAN withstand being properly seated fully, hopefully showing that many new handloaders are over-cautious... which is typically why we have these "problem" discussions.

I had this problem once. I had a M19 that had aftermarket spring
Kit. Came scoped, the guy that had it was never interested in
DA mode. I'm not interested in scoped handguns or DA myself.
Anyway the gun " shot" lousy. After checking all the normal
things, I found that the after market spring had been thinned
causing light strike even on SA with strain screw seated. No
amount of shims helped. I put in factory main spring and had
no further problems and groups tightened up. I will also add that
I quit using CCI primers in S&Ws. They are hard and I use them
up in SAs. Now use only Win. primers when possible.

I agree. During the shortage I bought Wolf. They seated hard but did there job. I use Federal match on everything cause it's a matter of preference
I suppose if one does reloading with less than adequate equipment...Then who knows
I'm sure the people that have reloaded for awhile have had powder flakes get on the primer seater. The powder will actually dent the primer.
Dillon will seat anything, and it will be all the way in.[Below level]
There has to be some kindda answer to this dilemma of one of the easiest part of the process
Don't think we will ever figure it out

JMOpinion/Observation, the CCI primers are harder than Remingtons or Olins. During the drought I tried S&B.s., those were harder than CCIs. BUT properly seated, they all go bang just fine.

__________________
Certified Curmudgeon

As I have stated previously, I would love for someone to provide strong documented and quantitative scientific evidence that there is a significant difference in primer "hardness" (really "impact sensitivity") among different brands of the same primer type. So far I have seen none - just countless and worthless anecdotal tales.

I used to use Federal SRP in .38 special loads usin H4227/AR2205 for more reliable ignition in my 686. Worked well for many years but then the last batch started misfiring at least 1 time in 6.

Replaced the Wollf standard ribbed main spring and same problem so switched to SPP and Tightgroup.

With my competition .45 ACP loads I was using Winchester primers, which were a bit harder to seat than Federal with my hand primer, as I was getting better chrono results with them and was getting misfires. My coach/mentor looked at my loads and said the primers were a bit high, so I got a press mounted primer die. Now all my competition loads get hand primed and then run through the press mounted die to ensure proper seating. No more misfires.

The last batch of CCI SPP I got were misfiring in my 686, Victory 38 S&W and Tanfoglio 9mm. I have just loaded some more 9mm with the CCI primers to see how they work in my Kimber 1911. But no matter the result tense will be practice not competition loads as I’m just not willing toriska misfire on the clock.

I had a similar issue.
I cleaned the primer pockets before reloading the same cases and the issue disappeared

For me I do my own testing and have no need to record the results. My experiences are my results, for me, and I just shared that. If anyone feels the need to do formal testing they should! But they can do it for themselves. "Evidence" can be made up, so I tend to value it (from another source) about the same as experiences, until I verify the results myself.

I have a 10-6 from about 1966 that had DA light strike issues from the first time I shot it. Appears to have been a PD turn-in. I tried hand seated primers, new standard main spring, etc. The final solution was a Power Custom extended hammer nose from Brownells.

I have long considered picking up one of these actually. I thought, if anything, that it may make the job of priming a little less tedious and time consuming, and you’re not the only person to mention that it’s a better solution than the standard press mounted solution.

As for my current primer seating situation, I took some time yesterday afternoon and loaded 150 rounds of 38 Special, and really put some muscle into seating the primers. Enough muscle in fact that I was flexing my 1.5” thick bench top. The primers now definitely seated fully. I used new reclaimed brass for these loads (the brass from the Speer Lawman ammo I’ve shot recently), and with this brass and seating method, the primers are now recessed into the back of the cartridge, rather than flush as had been the case with my previous loads in other brands of brass. I’m not sure if this is an indication that I had not been seating the primers fully before, or if I’ve deformed them from excessive pressure.

I’m going to visit the range in the next couple days, and I’ll report back what happens...


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You don't want to crush the anvil. But you do want to stress it. The benefit of hand priming is you can feel when that happens.

Thirty-some years of handloading, a bajillion rounds - a high percentage of those using CCI primers. Never had a failure to ignite.

For years I used the cheap Lee hand priming tool. Works great. But the pot-metal mechanism will wear and eventually you have to replace it.

Nowadays I use this: Stainless Steel Priming Tool. Pricey, for sure. Even more so when you consider you're gonna have to buy their proprietary shell holders. But it works like nobody's business.

I have a model 19-3 that was nearly unfired when I picked it up at a gun show in 2015. First trip to the range I found the reason it had seen so little use, it would not fire with any reliability in double action. Tried the old primer cup over the strain screw trick and it still wasn't reliable in double action even with the DA trigger weight shimmed to 11 lbs 8 ounces. That led to further examination that revealed a Short Hammer Nose, protrusion through the recoil shield was only about 1/32 inch. Note the Dime thickness that is standard for the older revolvers, not even close.

Good news was that a Power Custom hammer nose purchased from Brownells provided a solution. Note, this is an extended hammer nose and the length should be file fit until you see the dimple in hte primer looking normal, not the Grand Canyon. You may have a similar issue and based on my experience this hammer nose will fit revolvers made from 1972 or later. Note, it will likely work with earlier revolvers but my oldest revolver is my 1972 vintage 19-3.

PS; I will also tell you that if you ever come across a 2 1/2 inch model 19 or 66 SNAP IT UP. Holy Cow these are fun to shoot and the front sight fills the rear notch so completely that it's not that difficult to ring a 12 inch gong at 50 yards with every shot. Yeah, I was cheating a bit and shot in singe action.

Bet my wallet that these "worthless anecdotal tales" are infinitely more valuable than this quoted post. ^^

I have custom revolvers built by legends that will light off a thousand Federal SP without failure (and drop HBWC in to the 10 ring) but will fail to fire 15-20% of any/all loads built with CCI-SP. Double action, custom revolvers.

Convincing you was never on the agenda for Bill Davis or Travis Strahan, the men who built my revolvers and recommended that they be fed Federal small pistol primers.

That's interesting and good to know. I have a Model 686-3 National Match, which was a 1 of 500 item from Bill Davis, and it has functioned perfectly with both CCI and Remington primers but if the FTF problem ever surfaces, I'll try Federal primers.

Ed

It is really easy to "test" on your own. It may not be "statistically valid" For me, I do not really mind one or the other primer. Heck I even use Wolf. I have some custom guns that have problems with the Wolf.

Load up a batch of ammo with different brands of primers.

Then start adjusting the strain screw. (loosen) it up until you get fail to ignite on say CCI or Winchester, then try Federal or whatever. Record the results and see if there is a difference.

Not say there is one way or another.

Travis Strahan, there's a name I haven't seen or heard for quite awhile. Only had him do one gun for me, a High Standard Victor. ( probably back in the late 70's or early 80's )

One of the best triggers I ever had.
Went totally stupid one time and traded it for a Gold Cup.

There is nothing reliable, controllable, or quantitative about such a test, and it would only produce more anecdotal tales. And that any one would believe why Bill Davis or Travis Strahan (I suppose they are gunsmiths) would have even the the slightest engineering and scientific credentials to professionally address primer sensitivity measurement is beyond my understanding.

In any event, unless some of the primer manufacturers ever see fit to publish quantitative data established under laboratory conditions by using standard test methods and procedures to compare primer sensitivities of different types and brands, it will remain pointless to discuss the issue. Sort of like the old theological adage about arguing over how many angels can dance on the head of a pin. Everyone has an opinion but no one has any facts.

Well then, you have a long and expensive project ahead of you. Just think of all the fun as well.

Some other member posted a link to this.

I do not really think it is "statistical valid" but it is "something"

It's cover by copyright stuff so you need to search for it.

Fort Wayne Tactical LLC Primer Hardness Test

Aw, man, now we have competition snatching these babies up.

Don

__________________
NRA Cert. Reloading Instructor

Since, Federal small pistol primers are really hard to find,, and I'm getting low on them. I decided to run a little test.
I went to the LGS and purchased a 100 Winchester small pistol and a 100 CCI small pistol primers.
( store didn't have Remington or Federal SP primers , I used Federal I already had.)

Then I sorted a nice pile of good clean Federal 38 special brass.
I then loaded 90 rounds, 30 rounds with Federal, 30 rounds with CCI, and 30 rounds with Winchester.
All rounds were loaded at one sitting on my Dillon 550 press.

Today I went to the range with 3 firearms, a m60 with DIY trigger job and Wolff springs, a m586 with a Les Baer trigger job, & a m627 DIY trigger job and Wolff springs.

10 rounds with each primer was fired DA out each firearm.
Results were:
all 30 rounds with Federal primers went 'Bang'
all 30 rounds with the Winchester primers went 'Bang'
27 rounds with the CCI primers went 'Bang' .... 3 did not..
That's a 10% failure rate...

I know it's not a big sample to test ,, However, it's the most time I'm planning on wasting on it.

So, use the information or not, believe the information or not.... it really doesn't matter to me. ...
But, it looks like I might be able to use Winchester if I can't find Federals..

^^^ Either that, or get your guns in proper working order.

I used CCI exclusively for 25 years and never had one fail to go bang when loaded properly in a gun in proper working condition. That includes a model 24-3 that has a competition action job. The DA trigger breaks at 8 lbs, SA at 1.9. I think the only issue I ever had was with a couple that were seated high.

I later switched to WLP primers after reading Ross Seyfried that they gave the best accuracy.

Feds are really only necessary in DA revolvers with lightened springs. Unfortunately, I think people take this to mean they’re somehow the best.

Honestly, one thing I love about CCI is the packaging. I can put an entire box face-down on my flipper tray.

BTW my one experience with Wolf springs was in a Redhawk and not good, Accuracy went to pot the lighter the spring. I switch back to the factory.

Oh, yeah, and check your strain screws.

Hand priming tools wear and may not properly seat a primer. Discard the tool if it shows signs of wear.

Any primer should work with 100% reliability in unmolested guns.

I use either CCI 500 or Winchester WSP primers and in the past year I've reloaded thousands of 38's and 357's for use in both of my 4" heavy barrel model 10-8 and 4" 686 and my EDC 642. I have not had not one failure of any kind. My revolvers are all bone stock & original and I have not had not one single misfire since owning them. I use a Hornady hand press for the primers.

One piece of data I'll add is that my guns with Wilson spring kits ignite CCI primers with no issues at all, including my M10-8. However, my 686 PC with factory springs had a failure rate of probly 1 round per two cylinders. I replaced the springs with Wilsons and got a Apex XP firing pin, but haven't been back to the range yet.

The hardest primers I have found are used in Buffalo Bore ammo. My guns that eat CCI primers all day long had a ridiculously high failure rate with BB.

I'm going to reboot this thread somewhat. I rescued a K frame 38 and returned it to proper specs and operation and slicked the action. 100% reliability with Federal primers, one light strike with WW that was operator error (see much earlier post, #2?) in a lot of rounds. Noting that I was running low on Federals, but had CCIs in stock, I loaded up a batch with CCIs and started shooting.

Misfire city. I won't bore y'all with details (even to the extent of numbering chambers to rule out individual variation) but excluding operator error, I still had issues. I'm now up about 20% on hammer spring tension and believe/hope I've got the problem solved. This is still below full factory spec. Funny, never had this issue with N frames. Possibly the heavier hammer, greater spring leverage on the larger hammer make the difference.

I've got no clue if this is an iffy batch of primer cup metal, factory cup specification, specified/variation in prime mix sensitivity or phase of the moon. Primer lot # is DO1V41. Yes, the primers are seated to bottom of pocket, the pockets are clean and uniform in depth-and it's the same batch of brass that delivered 100% reliability with different brands. The same primers loaded in 9mm and fired in a box stock handgun were 100%.

I expect the only way to really resolve the debate would be to hire someone like HP White labs to comparison test the various brands for sensitivity and hardness. While that sounds expensive, if a bunch of us threw in a buck or three, we might manage to get the results at an affordable price.

Probably the best lesson from this is to perform minimal changes to spring rates if you demand 100% reliability.

I have mentioned this once before....I will not own a gun that is primer specific. They must perform flawlessly with ANY brand of primer.
All of my handguns are unaltered in any way. Bone stock. It seems that primer problem show up with guns that have been modified in some manner.

Randy