I loaded a dozen 9mm with 5.6grns of BE-86 and a Berry's 115grn flat point bullet. they have a COAL of 1.030. How is my COAL?

what do your loading manuals suggest? While we have a number of very experienced hand loaders on the forum, how do you really know who they area and what their experience is?

Not tying to be mean, rather trying to say rely on what the published manuals tell you then compare that information against what you will read here on the forum. Once you do that, you will have a sense of who is right and who is giving bad advice.

While I have been loading for over 40 years now, I consult the major manuals (Sierra, Speer, Hornady, Nosler, Barnes, Alliant, Hogden) then compare that to what I hear. I do not have access to the pressure test equipment the big guys do and do not the test facilities they do either. I have learned from people here on the forum but always verify their suggestions against my own experience and what the big guys publish.

Good shooting - GEC

Thanks for the sermon. I too have been loading for 40+ years. This is the first time I have loaded with BE-86 and I have consulted manuals. You know there is much the manuals don't tell us that must come from using the load or certain powder. Just looking for comments on what has worked well and what has not.

Don't mean to be preachy - just a note of caution.

Looks like Allliant data for BE86 loads pretty much all their stuff to 1.12.

Never used BE86 so I won't be much help. I do have a good load with W-231 and Bullseye using a 124 grain HyTek coated bullet. If I remember mine is seated about 1.08

I am rather conservative with the 9mm as bullet seating depth will rapidly increase pressure. I am sure someone with more plated bullet experience will weigh in. On a side note, you could compare overall bullet lengths then calculate the seated case volume (pressure). I would suspect that as long as you do not decrease the the case volume you should be OK.

It is interesting that Alliant has the 147 seated the same depth as the 115. Might be able to do some case volume assumptions from that data. I have seen some data suggesting 1.060 but have not personally tried that in my gun.

According to the Alliant website the min COAL should be 1.12" for FMJ's & HP's

Alliant Powder - Reloader's Guide

I agree with FMJ at 1.12, however I have a long list of 9mm HP that vary from 1.045-1.162.

So consult data that references your particular bullet.

How did you arrive at 1.030"? It seems pretty short - but if that's what your gun needs that's what it needs. (My combo of a Walther PPQ with Zero Bullets 124gr FMJ requires me to go to 1.090" - and that made me skittish compared to other OALs I've seen.)

OR

I understand your question, but I use titegroup, not BE-86.
You can check it yourself with a 115fmj and one of your 115gr flat points. The real factor is how much space is under the bullet. Measure the length of each bullet. How much shorter is the flat point? That is how much deeper you can seat the FP bullet without raising pressure compared to the fmj OAL data.

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Science plus Art

Do any of your manuals list a 115gr FN bullet? Most list either a FMJ or a JHP design..................

The FN design is more like a JHP but the Berry might have a different
makeup that may cause different pressures.

BE86 and a 115gr bullet load almost the same as Unique powder, so you are far from a maximum load, for that load.

In a 5" you might get from 1030 up to 1307fps from loads from manuals.
Safe loading.

Lets do some math.

The standard 115gr ball FMJ (plated) bullet is around .55" in length
and lots of data call out a short OAL of 1.10" for it.

A standard shaped 115gr JHP bullet is around .52" in length
and for the base to sit at the same elevation the OAL is around 1.07".

This is just a estimate for volume and same pressures.
Safe loading.

Smallball bullets HAVE to be loaded at 1.06" or less. Any other bullet has a COAL from 1.1 to 1.3 cover most, but some loads go out to near max of 1.169 but I haven't had luck with those as the bullet I'm using won't allow it.

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"He was kinda funny lookin'"

If I were loading Berry 115FP's I'd be happy with 1.030".

It's well within the SAAMI range of 1.000 - 1.169, min to max for the 9mm.

Berry says the FP is .050" shorter than their 115RN. Therefore, a FP@ 1.030" should leave exactly the same powder space as their RN @ 1.080". Although there other factors at play, pressures due to seating depth should be as similar as a handloader can guesstimate.

I load 115RN to 1.080 - 1.100". This allows me to load a variety of 124-125 grain bullets without adjusting the seating stem in my one and only seating die. Loading longer than 1.100" for a 115 will make 124's to long to chamber in my 3 guns.

Bottom line for a 115FP, I'd consider 1.030" is as good a stake in the ground as any.

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Carry.."hope" isn't a strategy

Thanks Mike!

Just goes to show that not all pistols are the same.

Some like a OAL of 1.03" while the three that I load will all swallow 1.14" with a FMJ design.

The main thing is get the amount of powder CORRECT !!

I have not used BE86, but for OAL I load 124 gr. Precision Delta JHP over 4.5 gr 231 at 1.077" and it chrono's 1093 and results in very tight groups. One other load is the 147 Bayou FP, loaded to 1.105" over 4.5 gr power pistol = 926 fps, and also yields very nice groups.

Most important (I think) is to give every bullet a .003" taper crimp to keep any from being moved back into the case any deeper. 9mm can increase pressure pretty rapidly by bullets seated too deep.

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H Richard
SWCA1967 SWHF244

Bullet profile has a great deal to do with COAL in 9mm. It SOUNDS short. The only bullet that I have HAD to load shorter than 1.06" were a 'smallball' bullet that would engage the rifling and not allow the slide to go into battery and catching the bullet on the lands. I try to err toward loading out too far (since manuals don't often give the combinations that you are using) but the more I tried to seat these long, the more trouble they gave me.

If you are unsure, seat the bullets out until they start to cause chambering problems.

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"He was kinda funny lookin'"

I think Mike's probably spot-on with the math. Although I'd go back, pull a bunch of barrels out of my guns, and plunk test them for length. Start long, crimp it tight (sacrifice one bullet and case, I've never found a box of bullets that didn't have 2-3 extras), and plunk it in each barrel. You're crimping it hard because if you just try and seat the bullet without a solid crimp, then it doesn't matter what OAL you have, it won't chamber because the case mouth will stick in the chamber long before the bullet has a chance to contact the rifling. Shorten and check the crimp until the cartridge fits in the chamber with the rim flush with the hood on each barrel.

Now what you have is a cartridge where the bullet will not contact the chamber or rifling. If the case rim is below flush on any barrel, it's overcrimped and the cartridge isn't headspacing on the mouth like it's supposed to. So you go back and repeat the process with crimping.

Back the crimp adjustment way the hell out, and load a live cartridge. Seat the bullet, then advance to the crimp die. Raise the ram/shellplate, and tighten the crimp adjustment until it stops. The Crimpamajigger (TM) is now in contact with the case mouth. Lower the ram/shellplate, and tighten the adjustment by 1/4 - 1/2 a turn.

Go back to your barrels, repeat the plunk test, increasing crimp until they slip in easily and the rims sit flush with the barrel hood.

Yes, it's a pain in the neck, but it yields excellent OAL and proper headspacing across multiple guns. If you don't want to do it every time...

...make up a dummy round, or remember to save the last cartridge from a box. Especially if you have a combined seat-and-crimp die--they're a pain in the neck.

The older Berry's load sheet shows a COL of 1.060 for the 115g FP. Load data for plated pullets is sometimes a bit hard to find in the mainstream load data publications.

Attached Images

Berrys 9mm.jpg (62.5 KB, 19 views)

Check out Western Powders if you really like plated bullets (Accurate and such). They have extensive plated data in their manual. Usually it's Rainier or Berry's.

And AA#2 is just a kick-*** powder.

I've loaded as much as 5.6g BE-86 with the Lee 355-120-TC. It's probably more than I'd want to use regularly, but it was safe in that my gun didn't blow up.

With a 1.1" COL (0.2" seat depth), I got 1220 fps out of a 92FS 5" barrel. With a 1.05" (0.25" seat depth), I averaged 1230 fps from the same gun. An M&P9 has a tighter barrel and chamber so you can expect it to be around the same velocity even with a 3/4" shorter barrel but the pressures will also be a bit higher.

While 5.6g is pretty warm, it is still probably not beyond SAAMI specs in peak pressure nor is it likely to be above +P or NATO spec for pressure so you are probably safe. Make sure you aren't getting any setback of the bullet when you chamber them (measure COL before and after chambering a couple)

My favorite load for 9mm with the 120g TC or 124g RN Lee lead bullet is a tamer 5.2g BE86 which gives me a good 1100+ fps MV. That throws the brass cleanly out of the way without stressing the barrel in any fashion.

If it fits my mags, fits my chambers, feed in my guns, I shoot it and go on with life. COLs (not COALs) are much concern about nothing. No two sources ever agree.