Smith & Wesson Forum

Go Back   Smith & Wesson Forum > >


Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old 03-13-2018, 09:44 PM
bluetopper's Avatar
bluetopper bluetopper is offline
Member
New 4227, Hot? New 4227, Hot? New 4227, Hot? New 4227, Hot? New 4227, Hot?  
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Northeast TX
Posts: 825
Likes: 276
Liked 322 Times in 156 Posts
Default New 4227, Hot?

My shooting buddy and I are prolific handgun reloaders, shooters, and both members here and have grown to like the traits of IMR-4227 powder. I bought us each a pound of 4227 about 2-3 months ago as we were running low. I noticed this batch was made in Canada, older batches were manufactured in Australia. Anyway he just opened up this new bottle, loaded up a batch in 357 Mag brass with 15.0 grains behind one of his 158gr mold gas check bullets he made with a double crimp groove, crimped on the lowest groove giving the longest OAL possible. Actual weight of the bullets, lube and gas checks was 153gr. as it was a very hard alloy. He loaded up a cylinder full in a 4" 19-3 and shot 3 times, the third shot locked the gun up by so much rearward pressure of the brass against the recoil shield. After getting the cylinder open and having to drive the empty brass out we discovered the cylinder has three bulged chambers, all primers were flattened, one fell out of the brass upon opening.
In the past using 4227 I have compressed all bullet weights in 357 brass and never had an over pressure result. He and I both pulled bullets from this batch and found 15 grains which is not a max listed load. It'll be interesting reading your responses.
Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old 03-13-2018, 10:01 PM
Geno44 Geno44 is online now
Member
New 4227, Hot?  
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: S/W Illinois
Posts: 675
Likes: 267
Liked 673 Times in 285 Posts
Default

15 grains is very close to the max load according to my book. Were the bullets accurately sized? Any chance the bore was leaded? What primer did you use? Is your powder scale correct? Some manuals say that we should start at the starting load and work up gradually whenever any component is changed though I doubt if very many of us go down that far. Sad to see a good 19 damaged to that extent.

Last edited by Geno44; 03-13-2018 at 10:44 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old 03-13-2018, 10:48 PM
Dieseltech56's Avatar
Dieseltech56 Dieseltech56 is offline
SWCA Member
New 4227, Hot? New 4227, Hot? New 4227, Hot? New 4227, Hot? New 4227, Hot?  
Join Date: Jul 2017
Location: Pittsburgh PA
Posts: 597
Likes: 483
Liked 788 Times in 326 Posts
Default

Primers falling out is a severe over pressure scenario. I had a bad batch of N-150 I was shooting in my 22-250 that was giving similar results. It acted like it was packaged wrong like the burn rate of N-140.

What's weird is Hodgdon does not show 357 magnum loads with IMR 4227. Now a lot of people say that H4227 is now IMR 4227 and the original IMR 4227 is lost to time. The H4227 max load is 16 grains which sounds about right to me. I have some made in Canada IMR 4227 and while I don't use it in 357 mag it's fine in everything else I use it in.
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old 03-14-2018, 12:12 AM
ArchAngelCD's Avatar
ArchAngelCD ArchAngelCD is offline
Member
New 4227, Hot? New 4227, Hot? New 4227, Hot? New 4227, Hot? New 4227, Hot?  
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Northeast PA, USA
Posts: 5,450
Likes: 273
Liked 1,823 Times in 1,099 Posts
Default

From what i hear H4227 has been discontinued and IMR4227 relabeled H4227. I think that's the way it went, sorry if I flipped them.

In any case while not identical the two powders have been so close their data has generally been interchangeable from most sources.

IMO any differences you perceive are due to the variations in the lot formulation.
__________________
Freedom is never free!!
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old 03-14-2018, 09:51 AM
bluetopper's Avatar
bluetopper bluetopper is offline
Member
New 4227, Hot? New 4227, Hot? New 4227, Hot? New 4227, Hot? New 4227, Hot?  
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Northeast TX
Posts: 825
Likes: 276
Liked 322 Times in 156 Posts
Default

All current 4227 for sale now is IMR4227 in the baby blue jug and has been that way for quite a while. When exactly the manufacturing switched to Canada I don’t know. The granules are a bit bigger too. However all data should work fine even if it’s forty years old and not damage a gun.

Last edited by bluetopper; 03-14-2018 at 09:54 AM.
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old 03-14-2018, 09:58 AM
cowboy4evr cowboy4evr is offline
Member
New 4227, Hot? New 4227, Hot? New 4227, Hot? New 4227, Hot? New 4227, Hot?  
Join Date: Jun 2016
Location: for now ,Texas
Posts: 1,385
Likes: 63
Liked 1,240 Times in 634 Posts
Default

I have the Canadian IMR 4227 and use that same 15.0 grs using that same bullet (Lyman 358156) crimped in the lower crimp groove so it is slightly compressing the powder . I use a CCI 550 ( full magnum ) primer and have zero problems .
I will have to say though , that one time I did get a bottle of Unique that was hotter than a depot stove . Regards, Paul
Reply With Quote
The Following 2 Users Like Post:
  #7  
Old 03-14-2018, 10:18 AM
reddog81 reddog81 is offline
Member
New 4227, Hot? New 4227, Hot? New 4227, Hot? New 4227, Hot? New 4227, Hot?  
Join Date: Sep 2014
Location: IA
Posts: 943
Likes: 233
Liked 719 Times in 380 Posts
Default

I'd contact Hodgdon and let them know what happened. My Lyman 48 manual has a number of loads for similar bullet weights with a higher max charge.
#358477 - 150 grain SWC - 16+ grains
#358159 - 155 grain - 15.2 grains
#358311 - 158 grain RN - 17+ grains
#358429 - 170 SWC - 14.5+
+ denotes a compressed charge.
Hodgdon's own online resource lists 16 grains as a max charge with a 158 grain HDY XTP.

Any of these loads would have similar catastrophic results. I'd have to guess that there was some type of mistake when bottling the powder. Does the powder look similar to prior lots?
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old 03-14-2018, 10:52 AM
oddshooter oddshooter is offline
Member
New 4227, Hot? New 4227, Hot? New 4227, Hot? New 4227, Hot? New 4227, Hot?  
Join Date: Aug 2014
Location: the free state of Arizona
Posts: 197
Likes: 326
Liked 207 Times in 101 Posts
Default

The OP sounds like he has some experience. He wrote that he pulled bullets and re-weighed and got the correct 15g. It is still possible that the first three were overloaded and the next 3 weren't, but that seems very remote. Overloading with 4227 is tough because it fills the case.

OK, so we have too much pressure in the cylinder. Where does that come from besides the powder choice, powder weight, or primer? 4227 is often shown using a magnum primer. That would not account for stretched cylinders.

This makes no sense to me.
It is possible for the 4227 to be a bad batch. But if that were true, lots of people would be blowing up guns. The only reasonable option left is that it is not 4227. The OP indicated a new bottle of 4227 so it doesn't sound like he refilled or transferred to another container. Could your powder measure have had left over different powder from prior reloading?

Has anyone ever successfully proved a bottle of powder was HOT ???

I read the KABOOM stories and the questions raised, but I haven't seen where a company admitted or was proven it had bad powder. Is there such a thing? I had my own KABOOM with factory manufactured ammo.
They used the wrong powder in a lot and had to buy me a new gun.

This is scary stuff as I use a lot of 4227 in almost every caliber I reload. It downloads well as opposed to H110 or 296. I take it to 20g in my 357 Maximums without over pressure signs. 44 Mag loves the stuff.

This is a first for me to hear potential 4227 problems. I'm hoping it's something else. I'll be following this thread with great interest.


Prescut
Reply With Quote
The Following User Likes This Post:
  #9  
Old 03-14-2018, 04:33 PM
4barrel's Avatar
4barrel 4barrel is offline
Member
New 4227, Hot? New 4227, Hot? New 4227, Hot? New 4227, Hot? New 4227, Hot?  
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: OVER the hill in TEJAS
Posts: 1,580
Likes: 8,630
Liked 2,389 Times in 981 Posts
Default

It was my gun. 3 shots were all that was fired out of 50. I have 4 scales to check power with. 15 grains is a compressed load and the 153 grain gc Lyman bullets sized at .357. I have shot the same load before but with older IMR 4227 maybe 2 years old in the same light blue plastic jug. The new powder is a little larger grain than the old and was unopened. I was using Winchester mag primers. I am lucky I shot it out of a not so nice 19. It was a tight gun but not pretty. I am a 40+ year reloader. Looks like post 6 is shooting the same load. I think I have some older loads the same but with a different primer but haven't taken them apart yet. No one was hurt and I am not upset with anyone but me. I usually shoot a new pistol load out of a rifle first but this was not a new load. The 19 still has some nice parts so all is not lost. I got this load from the Lee hard cover book that has been good in the past. It is not the book info.

Last edited by 4barrel; 03-14-2018 at 07:26 PM.
Reply With Quote
The Following User Likes This Post:
  #10  
Old 03-14-2018, 08:47 PM
DWalt's Avatar
DWalt DWalt is offline
Member
New 4227, Hot? New 4227, Hot? New 4227, Hot? New 4227, Hot? New 4227, Hot?  
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: South Texas
Posts: 23,024
Likes: 2
Liked 13,908 Times in 7,688 Posts
Default

If the cylinders were bulged, that powder is definitely not any kind of 4227, IMR, H, or anything else. As previously noted, virtually every top 4227 handgun load (and some smaller capacity rifle loads) will come close to filling the case, and therefore a double charge is just not possible. If it came from a new sealed can, I cannot imagine how it could have passed QA inspection, as powder manufacturers have very stringent controls to prevent such occurrences. And it's certain that the manufacturer would have already received similar reports from the field, and maybe even a few lawsuits. I think you should contact IMR. They will want to know about it. Possible that if the propellant is shown to be at fault, they might even spring for a new revolver.

PS: I have gone through much 4227 over the last 45+ years. It was the first powder I used when I began loading for the .44 Magnum (back when it was still being made by duPont), and I have used it since for .30 Carbine and also for cast bullet loads in .30-30, .308, .300 Savage and .45-70. I have seen very little difference between identical loads using H4227 and IMR4227. In the .30 Carbine, you need to fill the case almost to the case mouth with 4227, and even so, the MV is still somewhat below that of recommended loads using H110.

Last edited by DWalt; 03-14-2018 at 09:03 PM.
Reply With Quote
The Following 3 Users Like Post:
  #11  
Old 03-15-2018, 09:28 AM
4barrel's Avatar
4barrel 4barrel is offline
Member
New 4227, Hot? New 4227, Hot? New 4227, Hot? New 4227, Hot? New 4227, Hot?  
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: OVER the hill in TEJAS
Posts: 1,580
Likes: 8,630
Liked 2,389 Times in 981 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by DWalt View Post
If the cylinders were bulged, that powder is definitely not any kind of 4227, IMR, H, or anything else. As previously noted, virtually every top 4227 handgun load (and some smaller capacity rifle loads) will come close to filling the case, and therefore a double charge is just not possible. If it came from a new sealed can, I cannot imagine how it could have passed QA inspection, as powder manufacturers have very stringent controls to prevent such occurrences. And it's certain that the manufacturer would have already received similar reports from the field, and maybe even a few lawsuits. I think you should contact IMR. They will want to know about it. Possible that if the propellant is shown to be at fault, they might even spring for a new revolver.

PS: I have gone through much 4227 over the last 45+ years. It was the first powder I used when I began loading for the .44 Magnum (back when it was still being made by duPont), and I have used it since for .30 Carbine and also for cast bullet loads in .30-30, .308, .300 Savage and .45-70. I have seen very little difference between identical loads using H4227 and IMR4227. In the .30 Carbine, you need to fill the case almost to the case mouth with 4227, and even so, the MV is still somewhat below that of recommended loads using H110.
Thanks. I am not looking for a lawsuit. Just trying to find someone with the same problem. We bought the powder in the same store at the same time marked $31.99 and both made in Canada but the lot # is different. I will contact them but will try to get someone else with the problem. I stay on the low side of target loads. Lyman has a load of 17 grains with a 158 lead so I started at 15 grains after looking at several manuals. I haven't measured the cylinders yet but I shot some wad cutters after that and the same 3 cylinders were hard to extract which is a good sign of a hot load.
Attached Thumbnails
New 4227, Hot?-dsc05253-jpg  

Last edited by 4barrel; 03-15-2018 at 12:25 PM.
Reply With Quote
The Following User Likes This Post:
  #12  
Old 03-15-2018, 09:31 AM
Geno44 Geno44 is online now
Member
New 4227, Hot?  
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: S/W Illinois
Posts: 675
Likes: 267
Liked 673 Times in 285 Posts
Default

As mentioned in my previous post, have you accurately measured the bullet diameter? Your initial post suggests the bullets were cast by you. How were they sized and lubed and what did they measure? Very slight oversizes can cause pressure jumps.
Reply With Quote
  #13  
Old 03-15-2018, 09:47 AM
cowboy4evr cowboy4evr is offline
Member
New 4227, Hot? New 4227, Hot? New 4227, Hot? New 4227, Hot? New 4227, Hot?  
Join Date: Jun 2016
Location: for now ,Texas
Posts: 1,385
Likes: 63
Liked 1,240 Times in 634 Posts
Default

cast bullets are supposed to be oversize by 1-2 thousandths . It takes very little pressure to push them through the cylinder throats and into the barrel .
Reply With Quote
The Following 2 Users Like Post:
  #14  
Old 03-15-2018, 09:58 AM
4barrel's Avatar
4barrel 4barrel is offline
Member
New 4227, Hot? New 4227, Hot? New 4227, Hot? New 4227, Hot? New 4227, Hot?  
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: OVER the hill in TEJAS
Posts: 1,580
Likes: 8,630
Liked 2,389 Times in 981 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Geno44 View Post
As mentioned in my previous post, have you accurately measured the bullet diameter? Your initial post suggests the bullets were cast by you. How were they sized and lubed and what did they measure? Very slight oversizes can cause pressure jumps.
I size to .357 on these with a Hornady gc. using a Lyman 450 with Jakes 50/50 lube. I have to put the gc on with a .360 sizer to make them fit flush and then resize and lube in the .357. A lot of trouble. They are .3577 when they come from the mold. Nothing to do with the 158 gc bulllet but I have been shooting this load in the photo with a 125 jacket with low recoil and older IMR 4227 at 50 yards. The pressure with lead is way down under a jacket load by the book.
Attached Thumbnails
New 4227, Hot?-dsc05413-jpg  

Last edited by 4barrel; 03-15-2018 at 12:19 PM.
Reply With Quote
The Following User Likes This Post:
  #15  
Old 03-15-2018, 01:52 PM
bluetopper's Avatar
bluetopper bluetopper is offline
Member
New 4227, Hot? New 4227, Hot? New 4227, Hot? New 4227, Hot? New 4227, Hot?  
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Northeast TX
Posts: 825
Likes: 276
Liked 322 Times in 156 Posts
Default

4barrel runs every bullet he casts through a luber/sizer and knows what he’s doing I can assure you.
Reply With Quote
  #16  
Old 03-15-2018, 04:38 PM
Regaj Regaj is offline
Member
New 4227, Hot? New 4227, Hot? New 4227, Hot? New 4227, Hot? New 4227, Hot?  
Join Date: Aug 2011
Posts: 80
Likes: 74
Liked 126 Times in 42 Posts
Default

I've heard countless stories of canister powders that were hot beyond their spec... but not a single confirmed example. Makes sense, when you consider that powder manufacturers would expose themselves to considerable risk if they did not maintain very stringent quality control procedures.

From what's been presented here, this might be the most credible case of "hot" powder I've ever heard of.

Do please keep us posted of what Hodgdon says.
Reply With Quote
The Following User Likes This Post:
  #17  
Old 03-15-2018, 04:46 PM
4barrel's Avatar
4barrel 4barrel is offline
Member
New 4227, Hot? New 4227, Hot? New 4227, Hot? New 4227, Hot? New 4227, Hot?  
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: OVER the hill in TEJAS
Posts: 1,580
Likes: 8,630
Liked 2,389 Times in 981 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Regaj View Post
I've heard countless stories of canister powders that were hot beyond their spec... but not a single confirmed example. Makes sense, when you consider that powder manufacturers would expose themselves to considerable risk if they did not maintain very stringent quality control procedures.

From what's been presented here, this might be the most credible case of "hot" powder I've ever heard of.

Do please keep us posted of what Hodgdon says.
I will put the lot # up to see if anyone has this. Thanks
Reply With Quote
  #18  
Old 03-15-2018, 06:48 PM
Dieseltech56's Avatar
Dieseltech56 Dieseltech56 is offline
SWCA Member
New 4227, Hot? New 4227, Hot? New 4227, Hot? New 4227, Hot? New 4227, Hot?  
Join Date: Jul 2017
Location: Pittsburgh PA
Posts: 597
Likes: 483
Liked 788 Times in 326 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Regaj View Post
I've heard countless stories of canister powders that were hot beyond their spec... but not a single confirmed example. Makes sense, when you consider that powder manufacturers would expose themselves to considerable risk if they did not maintain very stringent quality control procedures.

From what's been presented here, this might be the most credible case of "hot" powder I've ever heard of.

Do please keep us posted of what Hodgdon says.
I burned 2lbs of N150 in the fire that's how convinced I was
Reply With Quote
  #19  
Old 03-15-2018, 08:39 PM
bluetopper's Avatar
bluetopper bluetopper is offline
Member
New 4227, Hot? New 4227, Hot? New 4227, Hot? New 4227, Hot? New 4227, Hot?  
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Northeast TX
Posts: 825
Likes: 276
Liked 322 Times in 156 Posts
Default

After he got the gun freed up and emptied by having to drive the empty 357 brass out from the front with a rod. He loaded some light 38 wadcutter loads and after firing the 38 brass they wouldn’t extract and also had to be driven out with a hammer and rod. A pretty good indicator of bulged chambers to me.
Reply With Quote
The Following User Likes This Post:
  #20  
Old 03-15-2018, 08:42 PM
USSR USSR is offline
Member
New 4227, Hot? New 4227, Hot? New 4227, Hot? New 4227, Hot? New 4227, Hot?  
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: Finger Lakes Region of NY
Posts: 390
Likes: 0
Liked 198 Times in 95 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Geno44 View Post
Very slight oversizes can cause pressure jumps.
Not with lead bullets.

Don
__________________
NRA Cert. Reloading Instructor
Reply With Quote
The Following User Likes This Post:
  #21  
Old 03-15-2018, 09:05 PM
cowboy4evr cowboy4evr is offline
Member
New 4227, Hot? New 4227, Hot? New 4227, Hot? New 4227, Hot? New 4227, Hot?  
Join Date: Jun 2016
Location: for now ,Texas
Posts: 1,385
Likes: 63
Liked 1,240 Times in 634 Posts
Default

Yes sounds like bulged cylinder .
Reply With Quote
  #22  
Old 03-15-2018, 09:19 PM
4barrel's Avatar
4barrel 4barrel is offline
Member
New 4227, Hot? New 4227, Hot? New 4227, Hot? New 4227, Hot? New 4227, Hot?  
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: OVER the hill in TEJAS
Posts: 1,580
Likes: 8,630
Liked 2,389 Times in 981 Posts
Default

Here is the #7-54486 05405-6 IMR Made in Canada packaged in USA KS Join the NRA 0519 ---And 1031317 4510 sideways.

Last edited by 4barrel; 03-17-2018 at 08:08 AM.
Reply With Quote
  #23  
Old 03-16-2018, 07:41 PM
Qc Pistolero Qc Pistolero is offline
Member
New 4227, Hot? New 4227, Hot? New 4227, Hot? New 4227, Hot? New 4227, Hot?  
Join Date: May 2016
Location: 30min SE Montreal
Posts: 1,434
Likes: 137
Liked 969 Times in 555 Posts
Default

My experience parrallels that of DWalt when it comes to IMR 4227.The only help I can bring here is if you have the powder analysed so as to determine the burn rate;keep a good sample for yourself so if something turns out wrong,you'll have something to back up your sayings.
This is not said in view of sueing but one is never too carefull when somebody tries to throw sh** in your fan!
Reply With Quote
The Following User Likes This Post:
  #24  
Old 03-16-2018, 07:53 PM
4barrel's Avatar
4barrel 4barrel is offline
Member
New 4227, Hot? New 4227, Hot? New 4227, Hot? New 4227, Hot? New 4227, Hot?  
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: OVER the hill in TEJAS
Posts: 1,580
Likes: 8,630
Liked 2,389 Times in 981 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Qc Pistolero View Post
My experience parrallels that of DWalt when it comes to IMR 4227.The only help I can bring here is if you have the powder analysed so as to determine the burn rate;keep a good sample for yourself so if something turns out wrong,you'll have something to back up your sayings.
This is not said in view of sueing but one is never too carefull when somebody tries to throw sh** in your fan!
Thanks-Just trying to get to the problem. My wife slipped and fell at Wally World last year on a wet floor but she got over it. They called several times checking. No problem. This powder is not old. I am trying to find the same # as to what I have. They made more than one. If it turns out to be my fault I will post that also.

Last edited by 4barrel; 03-16-2018 at 08:11 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #25  
Old 03-16-2018, 08:17 PM
randyp's Avatar
randyp randyp is offline
Member
New 4227, Hot? New 4227, Hot? New 4227, Hot? New 4227, Hot? New 4227, Hot?  
Join Date: Aug 2013
Location: North Texas
Posts: 62
Likes: 9
Liked 19 Times in 9 Posts
Default

I have an unopened bottle I purchased at the end of February. It has the same barcode as yours but there is also a stamped in ink no of 1022316 with 4508 below it on the side of the caution label. Could this be the lot number?
Reply With Quote
  #26  
Old 03-16-2018, 10:51 PM
bluetopper's Avatar
bluetopper bluetopper is offline
Member
New 4227, Hot? New 4227, Hot? New 4227, Hot? New 4227, Hot? New 4227, Hot?  
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Northeast TX
Posts: 825
Likes: 276
Liked 322 Times in 156 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by randyp View Post
I have an unopened bottle I purchased at the end of February. It has the same barcode as yours but there is also a stamped in ink no of 1022316 with 4508 below it on the side of the caution label. Could this be the lot number?
I have the exact same lot number. I haven’t used any of mine either but will soon just to try. I wonder how many pounds of powder make up a lot. It’s probably a lot.

Last edited by bluetopper; 03-16-2018 at 11:00 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #27  
Old 03-17-2018, 01:16 AM
hdwhit hdwhit is offline
Member
New 4227, Hot? New 4227, Hot? New 4227, Hot? New 4227, Hot? New 4227, Hot?  
Join Date: Sep 2016
Location: North Texas
Posts: 787
Likes: 79
Liked 474 Times in 294 Posts
Default

Quote:
bluetopper wrote:
I bought us each a pound of 4227 about 2-3 months ago as we were running low. I noticed this batch was made in Canada, older batches were manufactured in Australia.
You noticed the powder was being made in a different country and didn't take that as enough of a component change to follow proper load development procedures, retreat to the published starting load and re-develop the load?

Quote:
...the third shot locked the gun up ... After getting the cylinder open ...we discovered the cylinder has three bulged chambers,...
Mercifully you just damaged a gun, but neither of you suffered any serious, permanent or disfiguring injuries.

Quote:
In the past using 4227 I have compressed all bullet weights in 357 brass and never had an over pressure result.
Yes, but that was with powder made years ago in a different country.

Quote:
It'll be interesting reading your responses.
I appreciate you posting on your experiences even though they were not all that complimentary.

I hope your experience will serve as an apt warning to other reloaders that when they have a component change - particularly something as significant as a change in the country of origin of the powder - they need to follow proper load development procedures; retreat the the starting load and re-develop the load if they don't want to hazard their guns or their safety.
Reply With Quote
The Following 2 Users Like Post:
  #28  
Old 03-17-2018, 06:55 AM
Regaj Regaj is offline
Member
New 4227, Hot? New 4227, Hot? New 4227, Hot? New 4227, Hot? New 4227, Hot?  
Join Date: Aug 2011
Posts: 80
Likes: 74
Liked 126 Times in 42 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by hdwhit View Post
You noticed the powder was being made in a different country and didn't take that as enough of a component change to follow proper load development procedures, retreat to the published starting load and re-develop the load?



Mercifully you just damaged a gun, but neither of you suffered any serious, permanent or disfiguring injuries.



Yes, but that was with powder made years ago in a different country.



I appreciate you posting on your experiences even though they were not all that complimentary.

I hope your experience will serve as an apt warning to other reloaders that when they have a component change - particularly something as significant as a change in the country of origin of the powder - they need to follow proper load development procedures; retreat the the starting load and re-develop the load if they don't want to hazard their guns or their safety.

Well, I'll take the other side...

Most of us don't examine the fine print on the back of our canisters of powder to see if there's something interesting, like the country of origin.

Yes, I absolutely expect manufacturers of canister powders to make their powders to spec. There is very slight variation in that spec from lot to lot, but it's not significant enough to require load redevelopment. I expect 296 to always behave like 296, Unique to always behave like Unique, and 4227 to always behave like 4227.

The notion that handloaders would redevelop their loads from scratch every time they bought a new lot of powder is quite a stretch (and, yes, I know that's not exactly what you said... but if you take your argument to its logical conclusion, that's where you end up).

Hang around handloading forums for awhile and it doesn't take long to read stuff that'll have you shaking your head. Inexperienced guys doing things that make you cringe.

I haven't heard that in this thread. Which is not to say that a mistake wasn't made. Maybe it was.

But not redeveloping his load from scratch because the fine print on the back of the bottle changed ain't it.

Last edited by Regaj; 03-17-2018 at 03:12 PM.
Reply With Quote
The Following 7 Users Like Post:
  #29  
Old 03-17-2018, 08:15 AM
4barrel's Avatar
4barrel 4barrel is offline
Member
New 4227, Hot? New 4227, Hot? New 4227, Hot? New 4227, Hot? New 4227, Hot?  
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: OVER the hill in TEJAS
Posts: 1,580
Likes: 8,630
Liked 2,389 Times in 981 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by randyp View Post
I have an unopened bottle I purchased at the end of February. It has the same barcode as yours but there is also a stamped in ink no of 1022316 with 4508 below it on the side of the caution label. Could this be the lot number?
Let me know how it does. I would start really low. Thanks--Mine has 1031317 4510.
Reply With Quote
  #30  
Old 03-17-2018, 11:16 AM
DWalt's Avatar
DWalt DWalt is offline
Member
New 4227, Hot? New 4227, Hot? New 4227, Hot? New 4227, Hot? New 4227, Hot?  
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: South Texas
Posts: 23,024
Likes: 2
Liked 13,908 Times in 7,688 Posts
Default

"Yes, I absolutely expect manufacturers of canister powders to make their powders to spec. There is very slight variation in that spec from lot to lot, but it's not significant enough to require load redevelopment. I expect 296 to always behave like 296, Unique to always behave like Unique, and 4227 to always behave like 4227."

And that is exactly what powder manufacturers do. Canister powders sold to reloaders present different issues than powders sold to the big loading companies. There can be substantial lot-to-lot performance variations tolerated by the loading companies, as they perform extensive lab and ballistics tests on each lot of propellant they receive and can easily adjust their loading equipment accordingly to achieve the desired ballistics performance. And such powder lots can be several hundred thousand pounds each, depending upon the powder. For canister powders, every can of a powder sold to reloaders must contain propellant producing (insofar as possible) the same performance year after year for decades. This is done by blending several manufacturing lots of the same powder together to achieve identical ballistic performance in every can. That requires somewhat more work than selling a single large lot of powder to Remington, Olin, Federal, or the Lake City Army Ammunition Plant. You can be assured that a can of, say, Unique you bought 15 years ago is ballistically nearly identical to that from a can you bought last week.
Reply With Quote
The Following 3 Users Like Post:
  #31  
Old 03-18-2018, 08:30 AM
trapper9260 trapper9260 is offline
Member
New 4227, Hot? New 4227, Hot? New 4227, Hot? New 4227, Hot? New 4227, Hot?  
Join Date: Jul 2017
Location: Iowa
Posts: 16
Likes: 2
Liked 4 Times in 3 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by DWalt View Post
"Yes, I absolutely expect manufacturers of canister powders to make their powders to spec. There is very slight variation in that spec from lot to lot, but it's not significant enough to require load redevelopment. I expect 296 to always behave like 296, Unique to always behave like Unique, and 4227 to always behave like 4227."

And that is exactly what powder manufacturers do. Canister powders sold to reloaders present different issues than powders sold to the big loading companies. There can be substantial lot-to-lot performance variations tolerated by the loading companies, as they perform extensive lab and ballistics tests on each lot of propellant they receive and can easily adjust their loading equipment accordingly to achieve the desired ballistics performance. And such powder lots can be several hundred thousand pounds each, depending upon the powder. For canister powders, every can of a powder sold to reloaders must contain propellant producing (insofar as possible) the same performance year after year for decades. This is done by blending several manufacturing lots of the same powder together to achieve identical ballistic performance in every can. That requires somewhat more work than selling a single large lot of powder to Remington, Olin, Federal, or the Lake City Army Ammunition Plant. You can be assured that a can of, say, Unique you bought 15 years ago is ballistically nearly identical to that from a can you bought last week.
You got it word no better then I can. Some think different.After one dose there research will find out what you stated. Some was wonder about 2400 powder that was made before Allient bought company and found it is is still made the same way.That is what the one of Allient had let someone know that ask them about.
Reply With Quote
  #32  
Old 03-20-2018, 08:13 PM
cmj8591's Avatar
cmj8591 cmj8591 is online now
Member
New 4227, Hot?  
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Massachusetts, USA
Posts: 789
Likes: 185
Liked 711 Times in 316 Posts
Default

Is it possible that this was a gun problem? If the head space was out of spec that could cause a problem like this.
Reply With Quote
  #33  
Old 03-21-2018, 10:23 AM
4barrel's Avatar
4barrel 4barrel is offline
Member
New 4227, Hot? New 4227, Hot? New 4227, Hot? New 4227, Hot? New 4227, Hot?  
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: OVER the hill in TEJAS
Posts: 1,580
Likes: 8,630
Liked 2,389 Times in 981 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by cmj8591 View Post
Is it possible that this was a gun problem? If the head space was out of spec that could cause a problem like this.
I gave the powder-bullets-primers-and the loaded bullets to another guy to test. He has 3 bottles new and old 4227 and a radar setup. It will probably be a few weeks for the results. Thanks
Reply With Quote
  #34  
Old 03-24-2018, 10:03 PM
4barrel's Avatar
4barrel 4barrel is offline
Member
New 4227, Hot? New 4227, Hot? New 4227, Hot? New 4227, Hot? New 4227, Hot?  
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: OVER the hill in TEJAS
Posts: 1,580
Likes: 8,630
Liked 2,389 Times in 981 Posts
Default

No problem with the powder results. Still looking. I watched the tests. The powder is not the problem. 6 shots each with 3 different lot # including mine with a 158 bullet 12 14 and 15 grains with a standard primer.

Last edited by 4barrel; 03-26-2018 at 10:39 AM.
Reply With Quote
  #35  
Old 03-28-2018, 12:16 AM
mod29's Avatar
mod29 mod29 is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: WA
Posts: 414
Likes: 659
Liked 334 Times in 152 Posts
Default

My current 1-lb jar of IMR 4227 is Lot # 1092816 4509
I have loaded light .44 mag and mid-range .44 Special rounds with this batch and all shot normally...FYI
Reply With Quote
  #36  
Old 05-27-2018, 09:26 AM
4barrel's Avatar
4barrel 4barrel is offline
Member
New 4227, Hot? New 4227, Hot? New 4227, Hot? New 4227, Hot? New 4227, Hot?  
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: OVER the hill in TEJAS
Posts: 1,580
Likes: 8,630
Liked 2,389 Times in 981 Posts
Default

We finally found a 27 to test with. 15.3 grains of the IMR 4227 with Winchester mag primers flattened the first two primers With the same 158 grain .357 gas check bullets so we quit with them--but standard primers look normal with the same load. I can still use my 19 but brass is hard to eject so I will use it for 38 only. Mag primers with 4227 will raise pressure a lot in 357 with a full charge in this test. I switched back to 2400 that I have used since the 70s. No fault of the powder but maybe there should be warnings on the use of IMR 4227 with mag primers. Also my 19 -2 probably had who knows what shot through it. I have only had it less than a year and a beater when I got it.

Last edited by 4barrel; 05-27-2018 at 09:29 AM.
Reply With Quote
  #37  
Old 05-27-2018, 11:27 AM
BC38's Avatar
BC38 BC38 is online now
Member
New 4227, Hot? New 4227, Hot? New 4227, Hot? New 4227, Hot? New 4227, Hot?  
Join Date: Nov 2013
Location: Spokane, WA
Posts: 6,351
Likes: 290
Liked 7,025 Times in 2,950 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by 4barrel View Post
We finally found a 27 to test with. 15.3 grains of the IMR 4227 with Winchester mag primers flattened the first two primers With the same 158 grain .357 gas check bullets so we quit with them--but standard primers look normal with the same load. I can still use my 19 but brass is hard to eject so I will use it for 38 only. Mag primers with 4227 will raise pressure a lot in 357 with a full charge in this test. I switched back to 2400 that I have used since the 70s. No fault of the powder but maybe there should be warnings on the use of IMR 4227 with mag primers. ..
Thanks for starting this thread and posting this last result. A lot of times people take a lot of abuse from others who assume "THEY know better" than the OP when a thread like this gets started. So I want to commend you for sticking your neck out to post this info for all of our benefit.

The really interesting part of this from my perspective is the caution against using mag primers with IMR 4227. This is especially surprising in regards to Winchester primers since they advertise them as being for standard OR magnum loads. I've read lots of posts where experienced reloaders specifically recommend using magnum primers with IMR4227 in order to get it to burn cleaner.

So thanks again for posting your experience as a cautionary tale for the rest of us.
Reply With Quote
The Following 3 Users Like Post:
  #38  
Old 05-27-2018, 12:33 PM
cowboy4evr cowboy4evr is offline
Member
New 4227, Hot? New 4227, Hot? New 4227, Hot? New 4227, Hot? New 4227, Hot?  
Join Date: Jun 2016
Location: for now ,Texas
Posts: 1,385
Likes: 63
Liked 1,240 Times in 634 Posts
Default

I always use a " full " magnum primer when using IMR 4227 , in 357 , 41 mag , 44 mag and 45 LC . I don't use the winchester / remington " one primer for all " . Personally I use CCI 350 in the larger calibers , usually Winchester or CCI 550 small pistol Magnum primers in the 357 . I have used 4227 for many a year and will continue to use it . You have an interesting problem , if the regular primers solve it , then by all means use them . Regards, Paul
Reply With Quote
  #39  
Old 05-27-2018, 01:33 PM
4barrel's Avatar
4barrel 4barrel is offline
Member
New 4227, Hot? New 4227, Hot? New 4227, Hot? New 4227, Hot? New 4227, Hot?  
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: OVER the hill in TEJAS
Posts: 1,580
Likes: 8,630
Liked 2,389 Times in 981 Posts
Default

Winchester makes a magnum primer for small pistol.
Reply With Quote
  #40  
Old 05-28-2018, 12:53 AM
Nevada Ed's Avatar
Nevada Ed Nevada Ed is offline
Member
New 4227, Hot? New 4227, Hot? New 4227, Hot? New 4227, Hot? New 4227, Hot?  
Join Date: Nov 2012
Location: Reno Nv
Posts: 6,964
Likes: 273
Liked 4,035 Times in 2,096 Posts
Default

The old Speer "Atomic" #8 manual has 4227 at a 15gr MAXIMUM with a 158gr lead bullet.

That bullet you are using might be just a little fat, for max. loads?
You might want to check the dia. out, again.

I tried IMR4227 but found that other powders were cleaner, burnt w/o flake deposits and did not lock up my cylinders with light target loads that were too low for a good burn in a 686, 6".
Reply With Quote
  #41  
Old 05-28-2018, 04:10 AM
steelslaver's Avatar
steelslaver steelslaver is offline
US Veteran
New 4227, Hot? New 4227, Hot? New 4227, Hot? New 4227, Hot? New 4227, Hot?  
Join Date: Oct 2013
Location: Central Montana
Posts: 5,135
Likes: 2,207
Liked 9,813 Times in 3,154 Posts
Default

Bummer for the OP. I was going to suggest testing in anNframe. Saw that happened and the results. I would contact the manufacture just to see what they say.

I would also pick up another 19 cylinder and replace the one in the gun. They are often onEbay and usually not thathardto fit.
Reply With Quote
  #42  
Old 05-28-2018, 11:50 AM
Nevada Ed's Avatar
Nevada Ed Nevada Ed is offline
Member
New 4227, Hot? New 4227, Hot? New 4227, Hot? New 4227, Hot? New 4227, Hot?  
Join Date: Nov 2012
Location: Reno Nv
Posts: 6,964
Likes: 273
Liked 4,035 Times in 2,096 Posts
Default

We must remember that the M19 is on a light Magnum frame or a Heavy 38 Special frame.

Choose your ammo wisely.
Reply With Quote
  #43  
Old 05-28-2018, 12:01 PM
4barrel's Avatar
4barrel 4barrel is offline
Member
New 4227, Hot? New 4227, Hot? New 4227, Hot? New 4227, Hot? New 4227, Hot?  
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: OVER the hill in TEJAS
Posts: 1,580
Likes: 8,630
Liked 2,389 Times in 981 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nevada Ed View Post
The old Speer "Atomic" #8 manual has 4227 at a 15gr MAXIMUM with a 158gr lead bullet.

That bullet you are using might be just a little fat, for max. loads?
You might want to check the dia. out, again.

I tried IMR4227 but found that other powders were cleaner, burnt w/o flake deposits and did not lock up my cylinders with light target loads that were too low for a good burn in a 686, 6".
Thanks for the input --but I size all fast 357 loads to .357.
Reply With Quote
  #44  
Old 05-29-2018, 02:40 PM
oddshooter oddshooter is offline
Member
New 4227, Hot? New 4227, Hot? New 4227, Hot? New 4227, Hot? New 4227, Hot?  
Join Date: Aug 2014
Location: the free state of Arizona
Posts: 197
Likes: 326
Liked 207 Times in 101 Posts
Default

4barrel,
Is it possible that the 3 bulged cylinders were from your last outing of shooting? or maybe they've been there all along and you didn't notice. maybe it wasn't this load at all? Even with this theory, you would still have to explain the flattened primers falling out of the brass.
Your experience and analysis of this event looks excellent. It is very difficult for me to point at your handload as the problem. Which takes me back to where you said the 19 was a beater to start with.

I'm really stretching to figure this out for myself.
My own experience with mag primers vs standard would not explain the difference. The most increase in velocity after many tests was an extra 100fps out of one load. That was with TiteGroup which is known for being spiky at the max load already. Most were undetectable changes or minor. I can not see the mag primer causing a bulged cylinder.

4227, along with 296 and H110, is usually recommended for hot loads. 4227 downloads beautifully, but not 296 or H110. I have never heard reports of 4227 being spiky at max(not being linear). I always use a mag primer with these 3 powders.

The other variable that I really don't have experience with is the compressed load. I have changed powder when I had to compress a load. Compressing always made me nervous.

Last edited by oddshooter; 05-29-2018 at 02:56 PM.
Reply With Quote
The Following User Likes This Post:
  #45  
Old 06-05-2018, 08:09 PM
SLT223 SLT223 is online now
Member
New 4227, Hot?  
Join Date: Jan 2009
Posts: 2,487
Likes: 1,689
Liked 2,965 Times in 914 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by oddshooter View Post
4barrel,

4227, along with 296 and H110, is usually recommended for hot loads. 4227 downloads beautifully, but not 296 or H110. I have never heard reports of 4227 being spiky at max(not being linear). I always use a mag primer with these 3 powders.
4227 does NOT download beautifully... AT ALL. I agree with you on all other points.

The most shocking part of the OP's post to me is that he found an upper limit before running out of case capacity w/4227.

I have an 8# jug that's a few years old. I started with .357 Mag 158gr in an M28. 14.5gr with semijacket soft points produced so little pressure, the unburned powder backed up the chamber, packed in under the ejector, and locked up the gun. When I got home I realized I had some new tattoos on the left side of my face...unburned kernels blasted in from the b to c gap...like I shaved with a 50 y/o razor.

That 8# pound jug is my only experience with 4227. I load it to the hilt, and fire it with mag primers, and that's the only combo that gets me close to full burn. No experience like that of post 1 in this thread.

If OP loaded new like the old and damn near blew up his gun, the formulation is most certainly different.
Reply With Quote
The Following User Likes This Post:
  #46  
Old 06-05-2018, 08:31 PM
rwsmith's Avatar
rwsmith rwsmith is offline
Member
New 4227, Hot? New 4227, Hot? New 4227, Hot? New 4227, Hot? New 4227, Hot?  
Join Date: Dec 2012
Location: (outside) Charleston, SC
Posts: 25,615
Likes: 30,929
Liked 22,160 Times in 10,789 Posts
Default The model 19......

The model 19 isn't a gun to shoot max loads out of. Continuous magnum loads aren't recommended to prevent premature wear. It STILL should not have bulged your cylinders, but I you want to play with max loads. I do to a limited extent) get an L Frame 586/686 for the full montys. Or get an 'N' frame model 27 or 28.

Sorry about the gun. Wonder if the frame is ok, it could be replaced?
__________________
"He was kinda funny lookin'"
Reply With Quote
  #47  
Old 06-05-2018, 08:43 PM
rwsmith's Avatar
rwsmith rwsmith is offline
Member
New 4227, Hot? New 4227, Hot? New 4227, Hot? New 4227, Hot? New 4227, Hot?  
Join Date: Dec 2012
Location: (outside) Charleston, SC
Posts: 25,615
Likes: 30,929
Liked 22,160 Times in 10,789 Posts
Default The idea behind cannister powders...

Ammo manufacturers can test each lot of powder and determine the load accordingly. Users aren't expected to be able to do that, which is what a canister powder is, as opposed to 'bulk' powder. Canister powder is to adhere to a close range of tolerances to avoid what happened to you.

I wonder of Hogdon would be willing to test a sample? However, it would be expensive just shipping a sample to them. Wonder if you can get them to spring for shipping? But it would really be good to know if the powder is out of spec. Maybe they owe you a gun.

Seeing how a gun was severaly damaged and lives endangered, I'd hope that they would cooperate.
__________________
"He was kinda funny lookin'"

Last edited by rwsmith; 06-05-2018 at 08:44 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #48  
Old 06-05-2018, 10:05 PM
BC38's Avatar
BC38 BC38 is online now
Member
New 4227, Hot? New 4227, Hot? New 4227, Hot? New 4227, Hot? New 4227, Hot?  
Join Date: Nov 2013
Location: Spokane, WA
Posts: 6,351
Likes: 290
Liked 7,025 Times in 2,950 Posts
Default

FWIW, if this powder was purchased 2-3 months ago, and if it is too "hot" I'd wager Hodgdon would already know about it by now.

In my experience 4227 doesn't download "beautifully". Like SLT223 said, it downloads dirty - i.e. it doesn't burn cleanly when downloaded below the middle of the range. But it still downloads better than H110/296.
Reply With Quote
  #49  
Old 06-15-2018, 12:22 PM
BC38's Avatar
BC38 BC38 is online now
Member
New 4227, Hot? New 4227, Hot? New 4227, Hot? New 4227, Hot? New 4227, Hot?  
Join Date: Nov 2013
Location: Spokane, WA
Posts: 6,351
Likes: 290
Liked 7,025 Times in 2,950 Posts
Default

Just a quick update on this thread.

4barrel sent me a few of his loaded rounds to examine. The idea being to have a "second set of eyes" looking them over.

I pulled down half a dozen of them and found more variation in the charge weights than I would be comfortable with - enough to indicate a possible problem with the powder weighing/dispensing. But the average was just over 17g, so that wasn't really the most troubling issue.

The bigger and far more alarming thing I found was that the powder didn't look anything like the IMR4227 I have. I've got two canisters of IMR4227 with the lot #1062514-4498, one of which was still sealed and unopened. When I started pulling the bullets on the sample cartridges, I noticed that the powder didn't look like what I was expecting. The powder in these rounds is a short-cut, extruded, "stick" powder - something like IMR700X. I first compared the powder from the rounds I broke down to my stash of IMR4227 starting with my open can first. Then just to be 100% certain, I even cracked open my brand new can to compare. Both my cans looked the same - small spherical grains, not short extruded sticks.

So I'm not sure what powder is loaded in these rounds, but it definitely isn't the same as my IMR4227. Like I said, it looks more like something closer to IMR700X. Not sure how this happened - maybe the powder was put into the wrong canister, or the canister got the wrong label applied? IF the powder I pulled from these rounds IS 700X - and I am not saying that is definitely the correct identification - BUT if it is 700X, or even something close, that would certainly explain the damage to Bluetopper's revolver. Because the weight of the powder in these cartridges is roughly 3 times the maximum safe charge of 700X for a 150gr-158gr cast LSWC bullet.

Below is a photo of some of my IMR4227 on the left compared to some of the mystery powder on the right. Obviously they are not the same thing at all. So while we may still not know exactly HOW this happened, we at least have a better idea of WHAT happened. There was obviously some kind of powder mixup at some point. Whether that was in the packaging process or at some subsequent point afterwards, there is no doubt in my mind that is the main cause of the catastrophic damage.
Attached Thumbnails
New 4227, Hot?-4227-700x-jpg  

Last edited by BC38; 06-24-2018 at 12:08 AM.
Reply With Quote
The Following User Likes This Post:
  #50  
Old 06-17-2018, 11:47 AM
BlackTalonJHP's Avatar
BlackTalonJHP BlackTalonJHP is offline
Member
New 4227, Hot? New 4227, Hot? New 4227, Hot? New 4227, Hot? New 4227, Hot?  
Join Date: May 2012
Location: Texas
Posts: 809
Likes: 218
Liked 464 Times in 234 Posts
Default

BC38
Thanks for the update. From your photo the powder on the right doesn't look like IMR 700-X to me. But I agree that the powder on the left doesn't match the powder on the right. It's a good picture I just can't get enough magnification to see clearly. If you look at IMR 4227 you will see that it's an extruded powder and not a spherical powder.

Do you think that the powder on the right could be SR 4759? It's got a slightly faster burn rate than 4227, it's an extruded powder, the data shows it's twice the size of 4227 granules and the name is somewhat close. It looks like it could be H322, IMR 4320, IMR 4007SSC or another Short Cut extruded rifle powder but those have slower burn rates. Could you look at SR 4759 on the website I linked to and let us know what you think?

Here's a link to the magnified photos I look at when I'm trying to indentify powders.

700-X
National Center for Forensic Science

IMR 4227
National Center for Forensic Science

IMR SR 4759
National Center for Forensic Science

Last edited by BlackTalonJHP; 06-17-2018 at 02:28 PM.
Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
IMR 4227? LMWIS Reloading 44 12-27-2015 12:54 AM
iMR 4227 in .357 mag fuzzymcnab Reloading 24 11-03-2014 09:21 PM
H-4227 VS IMR 4227 confusion Mississippi Mike Reloading 22 10-23-2014 11:33 PM
Anyone here use IMR 4227 carpriver Reloading 21 08-05-2014 01:19 PM
IMR 4227 in the .25-20 help bigmoose Reloading 14 06-15-2013 05:29 PM

Powered by vBadvanced CMPS v3.2.3
smith-wessonforum.com tested by Norton Internet Security smith-wessonforum.com tested by McAfee Internet Security

All times are GMT -4. The time now is 10:43 PM.


Search Engine Optimisation provided by DragonByte SEO v2.0.42 (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2018 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.
S-W Forum, LLC 2000-2018
Smith-WessonForum.com is not affiliated with Smith & Wesson Holding Corporation (NASDAQ Global Select: SWHC)