I was looking at the selection of .38/.357 bullets in various weights on the Midway site and noted that many Berrys and Rainier offerings do not have a cannelure. A lot of reviews claim to have good results with target loads using a taper or light roll crimp. I'm still learning all I can about handloading, and was wondering if anyone here actually does this? I was under the impression that using revolvers really required a cannelure with a roll crimp to prevent creep, or is that only a concern for higher power loads and not lighter bunny fart target loads?

Just as a side note... I've been gathering all the equipment I need to set up a loading bench for quite a while now, mostly RCBS stuff, but because I live in New York City I dared not set up and reload anything. In 3 weeks I'm closing on a house in Vermont where I can finally begin to pursue this hobby. With everything I have I'll be set up to start loading 9mm, .38/.357, and .44 caliber handgun loads. I was just starting to seriously conceptualize ordering loading supplies for the first time. All my loading manuals are currently packed up and in storage and waiting for the big day, so I don't have them available to leaf through right now. Thanks...

I use plated and lead bullets with my light loads in my .357 and .44 mag with a taper crimp.

It's the heavy loads of slower burning powders that require a good roll crimp.

Below examples of .357 loads with a light taper crimp.

With 120 and 124 grain cast 9mm truncated cone bullets I use the taper crimp die from a 9mm Luger die set to taper crimp them in 38 special and 357 magnum loads.

These are 9mm bullet designs but they cast at .357 . As long as the 9mm bullets are .357 to .358 they will shoot just fine in the 38 special and 357 magnum , this will let you use one mould for all three.

If you will be loading for 9mm luger , go ahead and get a set of dies and use the taper crimp die on the smooth sided plated bullets in 38/357.
I have taper crimped the 124 grain cast bullets in some 1200 fps 357 magnum loads with no bullets moving forward when shooting.
They held just fine and 1200 fps load is no powder puff.
Give the taper crimp a try, it should work just fine.
Gary

To the OP the Rainier and Berry's are copper plated bullets, they have a thin coating of copper on a lead core. They generally don't put a cannelure on them. You can put a very mild roll crimp on them being careful not to slice through the copper plating. Usually these are loaded to lead bullet data. I think the Rainier have a little thicker coating than the Berry's. I have used some heavily plated bullets from other manufacturers that can be driven to magnum velocities, they usually come with a cannelure and as I said the plating is pretty thick. So basically in reloading for revolvers adjust the seating/crimping die to give the bullet a little bit of a crimp, but don't go overboard and slice through the plating.

If you use heavy loads in a light gun, the bullets may back out when the gun is fired. But it doesn't take much to hold them in place because there is some neck tension, too. Start light and if there's a problem, try a little heavier crimp.

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"He was kinda funny lookin'"

I've been loading plated bullets in 357 since the shortage of 2008.

I take great care not to over-expand the case mouths to maintain good bullet tension (the grip the case mouth has on the bullet before the crimp).
I highly recommend the Lyman M die to expand and gently flare the case mouths. Then I use a dedicated taper crimp die for plated bullets. I crimp just to the point where I can see a slight distortion in the bullet's plating. A roll crimp can be set light enough to work as well.

Between the bullet tension and the taper crimp my loads are good up to about 1000 fps with a 158 grain plated bullet.

I've had great luck with the Rainier 158 FP and 148 DEWC. They don't have the thickest plating, but the quality is very high and they are very accurate.
In my recovered bullets I can see the crimp mark, but the plating doesn't get cut or peel.
I use starting jacketed data for plated, then work up.

I do not know what kinds of loads you are trying for but when I load Rainier plated bullets I seat deeper than usual(watch your load density here) and taper crimp with the taper of the case following the ogive of the bullet just where the curvature of the bullet begins.By doing this you taper crimp to hold the bullet and if done correctly will not damage or mark the bullet skin at all.

save ur self the trouble and skip the issues with plated bullets and go to bulk bullet suppliers and get the hard cast coated bullets. Places like Precision, Missouri bullets, Bayou bullets, BBI, These will have the proper crimp grove and u can do what ever you like with them.

Xtreme's revolver bullets generally have a cannelure but I look at them as just a "seat to" reference, not a place to roll crimp. I use taper crimp for all my plate bullets.

Like Calliope, I like Lyman's "M" expander die. It's expander plug is longer than most others which I like especially for seating softer (not copper jacketed) bullets.

I also bought Lyman's taper crimp die for my revolver plated loads too.

I'm not a Berry's fan (been disappointed with their quality on more than one occasion) & most of the Rainier's I've tried have been good and most have a concave base (I found the 41Mag bullets don't ), which I like.

Rainier rates their bullets to 1500fps but grouping goes away long before that so I limit them to ~1200fps max, which is fine for indoor range distances.

Zero Bullets are a good quality copper jacketed bullet at reasonable prices & work great at any speed.

And like Milton mentioned, you can deep seat them to the ogive & crimp (taper works fine) over it. I only do that on hot loads, using slow powder in lightweight revolvers / high recoil guns. I works on my moderate 460 & 500 Magnum loads without jumping crimp. Depending on the cartridge charge weight might need adjusting slightly.

Hope you enjoy Vermont!

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Plated bullet seated to the ogive.


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Waiting for the break of day

My experience with plated bullets in mid to upper-range 357 Magnum loadings was not very good. I wanted to create an economical and clean practice load for my S&W 640-1. I tried a very gentle roll crimp. I actually bought a taper crimp die for 38 Special/357 Magnum and tried that. I could not completely eliminate the tendency of the plated bullets to pull out of their cases. I went back to a roll crimp on hard cast lead or jacketed bullets with a cannelure and saved plated bullets for my semi-auto pistols.

I think they might have worked better with Milton's method of seating deep and gently crimping over the ogive of a round nose bullet or the shoulder of a semi-wadcutter bullet.

I've been shooting rainier plated bullets in .45 ACP and .45 LC. I usually use a taper crimp, but a light roll crimp will work too. I don't shoot real hot loads so bullet movement probably isn't a big deal for me anyway. Rainier's site states their plated bullets should be loaded using copper jacket recipes.

I have mined plated bullets from an outdoor range dirt berm. I assure you that contrary to popular opinion, plated bullets are not delicate. It takes significant heat and stirring with a shovel to get molten lead out of a plated bullet skin.

I have removed many plated bullet jackets that were reloadable. Who uses 5 to 10 grain bullets? I've also loaded 357 mag loads with plated bullets for "optimum" performance without any problems. These loads did prefer a clean barrel and left no leading behind. Accuracy from a dirty barrel with some leading (from cast bullets) was not as good. I used a heavy roll crimp to prevent bullet movement.

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S&WHF 366

Thank you all for sharing your experience with a reloading noob. Can't wait to get out of here and get set up in my new home. Till then...

I've been reloading since the early 90's and always used Hornady bullets. I really like their 148gr HBWC (hollow base wadcutter) over 2.7gr Titegroup and a COL (cartridge overall length) of 1.18" for 38 special. For 357 magnum cases I like Hornady's 158gr SWC (semi wadcutter) with 3.8gr Titegroup and a OAL of 1.590"

For a little bit more horsepower use Hornady 158gr XTP and 9.5gr Blue Dot with a COL of 1.575".

None of these loads come close to blowing you up, they are good economical plinking/target loads.

Bullet grip is controlled by the dies expander and the type and degree of crimp. And reloading dies have a plus and minus manufacturing tolerances. Also the cartridge cases will vary in thickness, hardness and spring back rate after sizing.

At the Whidden custom die website they sell expander kits with five expanders. These expanders range from bullet diameter to .004 under bullet diameter to control the amount of bullet grip.

Below is a Lyman type "M" expander for a .223/5.56 rifle. And as you can see the expander is .003 smaller than bullet diameter. Also you just need to bump the case mouth onto the .226 step of the expander. This allows the bullet to start straight into the case and not tilt during seating.



Bottom line, I use type "M" expanders on all my reloads for straight inline bullet seating. And also to not overwork the case mouth that can cause the case mouth to split.

So remember a taper crimp is used to close up the case mouth flair for proper feeding. And case bullet grip, meaning how much smaller the case is than bullet diameter also holds the bullet in place. And light practice loads with plated bullets do not need a gorilla choke hold on the bullet. Also over crimping a plated bullet can destroy accuracy, so crimp your plated bullets like your playing Black Jack. "Stay light and beat the dealer".

I’ve since gone to 95% coated lead but did shoot a bunch of Berry’s in .38/.357. Favorite was the 158gr THP and it was very accurate. Still have about 1000 to shoot. I used the Lee Factory Crimp Die just over the shoulder with great results. I’ve driven these from 800fps to over 1200fps with no loss of accuracy or leading problems. I pulled a couple and you could see a crimp ring but didn’t cut the plating

As has been noted, a hard roll crimp is necessary for uniform powder burn with heavy loads of slow burning powder. It also is helpful if you're loading heavy and want to keep bullets from creeping forward under recoil and possibly locking up the cylinder.

With plated bullets you have several choices, depending upon how stout your loads are and what powders you're using. The patent ran out on Lyman's M expander die, many RCBS dies now also use the same design, which is well suited for use with plated (or any other kind) bullets.

You can, by adjusting the roll crimp die, set the die to remove the flare, but not crimp. This may be enough for your intended use. Or, you can seat the bullet deeper and roll crimp over the shoulder. Having a taper crimp die too is helpful as you can avoid having to keep changing die adjustments. Some plated bullets aren't as fragile as some folks would have you believe. At least on Berry's, you can get a pretty good bite on the bullet without cutting through the plating. I've run their 125 gr THP at somewhat over 1250 f/s with no issues and very good accuracy. Yes, I've backed that load down a bit.

I will note that plated bullets seem to have less friction with the cases than lead bullets or jacketed. If you're having slippage problems you need to work with expander button diameter/depth and crimp to resolve the problem. I wouldn't think they're an optimum choice for heavy loads in a J frame. Although a good roll crimp over the bullet shoulder should do the job.

I have some 240 gr Berry’s plated bullets for .44 Marnum I am using Unique with.

Adjusting the roll crimp to hold, but n it cut the copper plating seems like a hit or miss. If I lower the die a hair too much, it collapses the sides of the case and I end up pulling the bullets if possible and throwing the case away.

Can I lower the bullets in a .44 Magnum case to roll crimp just over the ogive beginning with, say, 8.5 Gr of Unique - a very popular load around 1200 FPS - without raising pressure too high by shortening the OAL more than normal?

I use plated bullets for everything I reload. A light roll crimp in any load of .357 seems to work. My 460 is a different story but it could be because the bullet diameter for plated bullets (that I can purchase) are .451 instead of .452. Any size load requires a very firm roll crimp to stop bullet creep. You only have 5 rounds instead of 6 or more. I have purchased 45 long colt with a cannelure but they still require a very firm roll crimp. I use an FCD for this as I cannot get a very firm crimp with the bullet seating and crimp die.

You can seat deep and crimp on the ogive, but you have to drop the charge and work back up. Unless you have a program to calculate the pressure difference, it's just guess work.

An 8.5 grains, 1200 fps load has pretty good pressure already. I would not seat deeper without backing down to 7 grains or so.
I did see an increase in leading when seating deep and crimping on the nose in 357. Too much jump to the rifling?

I don't know which bullet/shape you have, so it's hard to say exactly, but the RNFP bullets (like I posted above) usually don't need to be seated a lot deeper to reach the ogive. Other designs need more.

Recently I loaded some Rainier 250gr P-TCFP bullets in 45 Colt cases, using moderate speed powders, with a COAL of 1.600", a fairly nominal length. When I decided to try a load using a slower powder, 2400, I decided to deep seat them & crimp over the ogive to get a better burn. A change in COAL to 1.570" achieved that.

(It only needs to be seated so a caliper reading above the case mouth reads a few thosands smaller than the nominal bullet diameter & then taper crimped.)

The seating depth of the bullet went from ~.335" to ~.370" into the case. Using a simple volume calculator, created in Excel, that changed the "used case volume" from 32.1% to 35.5%, meaning there's 3.4% less case volume for the powder.

Using a chart, found in Lee's Modern Reloading Manual #1, by Vihtavuori, it indicate's the pressure would increase ~4.4% from this reduction in case capacity. If it was a 20K psi load that would raise it to ~20.9K psi.

So reducing the powder charge by ~3.5 to ~4.5% would offset the increase. (Dropping to 7grs would be a 17% reduction, way too much.)

I usually only deep seat in large capacity cases using reduced loads so the difference is of little consequence for me. Obviously deep seating in a 9mm would have greater consequences.

What barrel length are you shooting in that 8.5gr/Unique will give you 1200fps?? (More like ~925fps in a 6-1/2" bbl.)

A max. load of Unique with a 240gr JHP is over 10grs in a 44 Mag case.

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Waiting for the break of day

"Load Info

Our Copper Plated Bullets can be run at mid-range jacketed velocities or higher end lead velocities. We recommend keeping velocities to less than 1500 FPS (Feet Per Second) and using only a light taper crimp

Any velocities over 1200 FPS we recommend either our Heavy Plate Concave Base or Hollow Point products for superior accuracy. We recommend keeping velocities to less than 1500 FPS (Feet Per Second) and using only a light taper crimp

All of our Hard Cast Lead Bullets are approximately 18 on Brinell, our Cowboy lead bullets are approximately 15 on Brinell."

There you have it plated bullets = use light taper crimp and you should be okay. I will plan use my 9mm taper crimp set up to crimp with the seater plug backed way out.

This question is about 2 1/2 years old, and I'm still seeing this question, and the same answers on various reloading forums today. One reason I don't recommend plated bullets to new reloaders...

FWIW, my trial of about 900 plated bullets in a few different calibers showed me no advantage over my cast or purchased jacketed bullets, and a few disadvantages (price was close, but I was able to find JHP/FMJs for very close to the plated price)...