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Old 04-03-2018, 11:14 PM
robbt robbt is offline
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Smile starting to reload .357 ammo with Lyman / Keith 358429 in k frame

good evening , I have three model 19 l revolver , I am
starting to reload .357 ammo with Lyman / Keith 358429 using 2400 powder,
having deep concerns loading to Keith loads , believe 15 grs too much 2400 .
asking for advise on what others are using in there k frame.,
please post, many thanks
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Old 04-03-2018, 11:27 PM
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Default Good thing you asked.....

15 gr of 2400 under a 158 SWC is pretty near a top load. Most people would run about 12.5 gr or thereabouts for a not-so-magnum load. The mod 19 wasn't made to take a steady diet of max loads..
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Old 04-03-2018, 11:45 PM
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Alliant Powder - Reloader's Guide

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Old 04-04-2018, 12:05 AM
Forrest r Forrest r is offline
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lyman 3rd edition cast bullet handbook (1980)
358429/4" bbl
2400 9.7gr 879fps 15,900cup 13.5gr 1242fps 41,100cup

lyman 49th edition reloading handbook (2008)
358429/4" bbl
2400 9.7gr 879fps 15,900cup 13.5gr 1242fps 41,100cup


1.553" OAL
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Old 04-04-2018, 12:57 AM
rockquarry rockquarry is offline
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15 grs. #2400 with any of the heavier bullets is indeed a stout load. I wouldn't use it in a Model 19.

#358429 and several other bullets in the 160 -170 grain range work well with 12 grs. #2400 in the .357 magnum.
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Old 04-04-2018, 01:12 AM
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I shoot 14.8gr under a 158gr LSWC. That is about a half grain under max. But I only shoot them in my 28-2. Not gonna beat up my K-frames that way.

I personally wouldn't load that high of a charge under a heavier 170gr bullet, much less shoot it in a K-frame

YMMV.
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Old 04-04-2018, 01:55 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by robbt View Post
I am starting to reload .357 ammo
with Lyman / Keith 358429
using 2400 powder... believe 15 grs too much...
in there k frame...
Brian Pearce had a (4) page article in Handloader #248 (Aug-2007) about using milder loads in M19/M66s to avoid the premature loosen from a steady diet of magnum loads.

In short, he suggested limiting handloads to <30K psi, & preferrably in the mid 20K range.

He listed (7) bullets in his chart, one of which was the Lyman 358429, 173gr cast bullet with Alliant 2400. Seated to 1.667" OAL & using 13.0gr/2400 he recorded 1147fps from a 4" bbl, which is less than 30K psi, & is his suggested max. load for the M19.

.
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Old 04-04-2018, 07:33 AM
stansdds stansdds is offline
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Mr. Keith damaged or destroyed a number of firearms developing some of those loads and S&W used the N-frame for the development of the 357 Magnum. The K-frame 357 Magnum was developed as a smaller and lighter carry sidearm at the behest of Bill Jordan. The K-frame was intended for occasional use of magnum loads and certainly not for loads that push the pressure envelope to or beyond those established for 357 Magnum.
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Old 04-04-2018, 07:37 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Forrest r View Post
lyman 3rd edition cast bullet handbook (1980)
358429/4" bbl
2400 9.7gr 879fps 15,900cup 13.5gr 1242fps 41,100cup

lyman 49th edition reloading handbook (2008)
358429/4" bbl
2400 9.7gr 879fps 15,900cup 13.5gr 1242fps 41,100cup


1.553" OAL
Based on the OAL, is that loaded in a .38 Special case or in a .357 Magnum case with the crimp above the top band?
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Old 04-04-2018, 07:42 AM
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I have shot thousands of 357 magnums loaded with 14.5 grains of 2400 and Elmer's 358429 bullet with no ill effects! Very accurate too.
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Old 04-04-2018, 08:14 AM
stan v stan v is online now
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All we do is plink with our 19/66's. I use the same loads in the 586 and 27-2, keeps loading simple on the 550b.

4-4.5 grs of Universal is what I use since I burned up the SR 4756/7625 cans. I just picked up an unfired (maybe one cylinder) 19-3 and it's never gonna see a mag load.

All 357 cases

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Old 04-04-2018, 08:56 AM
cowboy4evr cowboy4evr is offline
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stansdds , where did you get the info that Elmer Keith " blew up numerous guns " ? That's just internet myth , no truth to it . He blew up one gun , a Colt SAA in 45 colt one fourth of July early on . It is what led him to switch to the 44 spl , stronger guns .
Read his book , " Six Guns " , it's all in there . Regards, Paul

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Old 04-04-2018, 08:57 AM
cowboy4evr cowboy4evr is offline
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13.0 grs of 2400 is a good , accurate load using the Lyman 358429 bullet . That is a completely safe load in K-frame's . The cylinder on the K frame 357's was made longer just for this bullet so you could load it in a 357 magnum case and crimp in the crimp groove . It won't fit in a model 27-28's or Colt's etc unless you either load it in a 38spl case or crimp over the front driving band in the 357 case .
Shooting 13.0 grs /2400 , you will wear out before your 19 wiil . Enjoy ! Regards, Paul

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Old 04-06-2018, 11:30 AM
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IMO a charge of 14.5gr 2400 under a 158gr cast bullet will get most any job done with a .357 Magnum. The danger to K frame forcing cones comes from 125gr or lighter jacketed bullets at high speeds.

The load I posted above poses very little chance of damaging your M19. The M19 was developed to shoot 158gr cast bullets.
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Old 04-06-2018, 12:39 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rwsmith View Post
15 gr of 2400 under a 158 SWC is pretty near a top load. Most people would run about 12.5 gr or thereabouts for a not-so-magnum load. The mod 19 wasn't made to take a steady diet of max loads..
DO NOT Exceed 13.5 grains (verify this with latest Lyman data)
13.5 is listed in Lyman Reloading 46th Edition 1982.
Even the 13.5 max. load sounds high .
My new Lyman Manual is at home and I will double check and verify the max. charge listed as soon as I get back home.

#358429 is a 169-170 grain cast bullet not a 158 , use Lyman data for this bullet not generic 158 gr. data

12.5 grs. as rwsmith suggest would be a much saner goal to "shoot for" . Start low and work up to it.

Gary
Update : 2012 Lyman Manual still gives 13.5 as a maximum load.
I would go with 12.5 grs. myself .
Gary

Last edited by gwpercle; 04-06-2018 at 03:00 PM.
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Old 04-06-2018, 10:24 PM
ddixie884 ddixie884 is offline
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Actually Elmer blew up 2 guns. The other was a SAA .45 in which he was shooting some much used brass that had loose primer pockets. Loaded with semi-smokless powder. He said he thought he got a chain-fire and the top three chambers all went off together. the top half of the cylinder and the top strap of the revolver left for other locations. These two .45 SAAs are the only documented Keith blow-ups. neither with modern smokeless powders. If anyone has documentation of any others, I challenge you to post proof of same. Nuff said...............
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Old 04-07-2018, 06:55 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by stansdds View Post
Mr. Keith damaged or destroyed a number of firearms developing some of those loads and S&W used the N-frame for the development of the 357 Magnum. The K-frame 357 Magnum was developed as a smaller and lighter carry sidearm at the behest of Bill Jordan. The K-frame was intended for occasional use of magnum loads and certainly not for loads that push the pressure envelope to or beyond those established for 357 Magnum.
That is a load of **** . I have heard of TWO and I really suspect that they are different versions of the same instance . The ONE HE tells about was a .45 that he was heavy loading with a bullet designed for a 45-90 Winchester trying to get better stopping power than the pointed nosed bullet used in .45 black powder loads of the day offered . It was on the 4th of July and blew the top strap , damaged the forcing cone and blew off the loading gate and cut his trigger finger . He was on top of a hotel shooting holes in the sky when it blew .

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Old 04-07-2018, 07:07 PM
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Quote:
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...He was on top of a hotel shooting holes in the sky when it blew.
Good grief!
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Old 04-07-2018, 08:12 PM
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I never went that heavy in my K frame .357 revolvers, since I did not kill Bowling pins.

I did go with the old Speer 160gr lead tip Jacketed bullet as a
deer killing machine, here in Nevada, though.

I got Unique up to1230fps as my most accuracy load...
I did not have any 2400 powder at the time.
Blue Dot did 1270fps but was not as accurate.

As a note, a 158 with 2400 in a 6" does 1340fps with a XTP .

Enjoy those heavy bullets.
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Old 04-08-2018, 12:09 AM
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It was Elmer's trigger finger, not his thumb. Hold a SAA with your right forefinger on the trigger and open the loading gate. you can see what would happen if it was blown open and off.
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Old 04-08-2018, 01:16 AM
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For hunting loads I use 12.5/2400/358429 HP in a 38 spl case and these loads preform well and do not show any signs of pressure in my Mod 19 or 66's . However for plinking I either use 3.0/BE /148 HBWC or 4.5/231/158CSW, standard primer in all loads.
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Old 04-08-2018, 06:51 AM
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Been shooting the 358429 since the 70’s, driving it with 13. of 2400. This load will do anything you want with a 357 magnum. I have shot thousands of these in my K,L & N frames over the years.

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Old 04-08-2018, 12:32 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ddixie884 View Post
It was Elmer's trigger finger, not his thumb. Hold a SAA with your right forefinger on the trigger and open the loading gate. you can see what would happen if it was blown open and off.
You are correct of course , I knew that but for some reason that is not what I typed . Thanks for the correction !
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Old 04-08-2018, 04:36 PM
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Default Try doing that now....

Quote:
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He was on top of a hotel shooting holes in the sky when it blew .

Eddie
Try doing that now.
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Old 04-08-2018, 11:37 PM
Qc Pistolero Qc Pistolero is offline
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Try doing that now.
You'll wear an horizontal striped numbered pyjama in no time(altough I think they now make them wear orange jump suits!).
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Old 04-13-2018, 08:01 AM
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Man on top of a hotel firing a gun now days would be labeled a terrorist and Sniped .
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Old 04-13-2018, 03:10 PM
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Having to have my M19 retuned twice for shooting heavy loads, nope. it is now a training gun with 38sp equiv for a steady diet. My max 158gr load for the smaller magnum is 13gr of 2400 under 158gr lswc.
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Old 04-13-2018, 04:17 PM
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My Lyman manual list 13.5 gr as the max with that bullet, I wouldn't go over that and I used 12.0 to 12.5 in my model 66. My favorite was Unique at about 5.5 gr as I'd rather not hurry a K frame into being a paper weight.
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