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Old 04-15-2018, 08:17 PM
SquarePizza SquarePizza is offline
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Default Modern 30 carbine ball?

Being in a ban state, but still wanting to play with a carbine, I have been thinking of the m1 carbine route. Which got me thinking about two issues.

1- I'm used to a match rifle, so the 4 MOA that I get out of a M1 carbine isn't the most fun. So goal 1 is going to be working up a more accurate load. Which who knows maybe a new criterion barrel is in my future.

2- An expanding ball that could be used for game/Home defense. This goal is more towards why I am writing this post.

Who makes modern ball for the M1 carbine? Gold dots seem to be hard to find, Hornady has the crit defense. But neither of them are offered just ball.

Remington JSP is the old standby but can hard to find. However it does feed 100%

I tried the older Hornady XTP, which had great expansion but terrible feeding.

MAC showed some great slow motion footage of the Leigh cavitator that looks promising, I might pick up a box and load some up to see if they feed.

GT bullets offers a lead HP that I might try. Maybe I can get expansion without leading.

Are there other options that people are using in their carbines that feed well and offer more than the standard FMJ?
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Old 04-15-2018, 09:36 PM
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If you reload, there is a large variety of available lightweight .30 expanding bullets which will work in an M1 Carbine. My preference, if you want expansion, is the 100 grain .30 half-jacket Speer Plinker. You can easily exceed an MV of over 2000 ft.sec with the lighter bullet. If you don't handload, the Speer Gold Dot or Hornady Critical Defense .30 Carbine loadings are supposed to be very good. I have never encountered a feeding problem with any bullet I have ever tried in the Carbine. Even the .30/.22 Sabot bullets (Accelerator).

I have understood that accurizing a carbine is possible, but outstanding grouping improvements are unlikely. I have never been able to find a load which will do much better than 4"-5" 5-shot groups from a bench rest at 100 yards with mine, which still has a pretty fine barrel. Others may have discovered the magic formula, but I haven't. In any event, 4"-5" groups are just fine with me.

The original military specification for the .30 Carbine M1 Ball round is a Mean Radius (MR) of 1.5" or less at 100 yards. I am not sure just how many shots per group were used to establish the MR and from what kind of gun. However, the standard rule of thumb is that the MR will generally be about 1/3 of the extreme spread (ES), no matter how many shots are in the group. Therefore the expected ES would be about 4.5" under whatever the requirements of the official grouping test were. And guess what? That ES is about what the performance of the .30 Carbine M1 Ball turns out to be.

Last edited by DWalt; 04-15-2018 at 10:43 PM.
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Old 04-15-2018, 11:59 PM
jag22 jag22 is offline
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I think you may just be beating your head against the wall. If youíre thinking accurate, hunting or home defense the m-1 carbine just doesnít come up. It is just a fun gun to shoot, period. Itís the first gun I bought as an adult and quickly realized I needed to get into reloading, that was about 30 years ago.
Think about it, if you hunt you shoot very few rounds. Home defense, you hope you never have to shoot. If you want to put most of your rounds in the Bullseye at 100 yards, good luck. Load it up with 110 FMJ (thatís what it was designed to shoot) and blast away.
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Old 04-16-2018, 07:53 AM
spad124 spad124 is offline
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There are several threads on the CMP forums about accurizing the M1 Carbine. As I recall the fit of the stock at the barrel and barrel band are pretty critical. You need some up pressure at the tip of the stock. Also, even though many people donít like them from an historical perspective, the post WWII barrel band with the bayonet lug helps with accuracy. My Ď43 Inland, which most likely has its original barrel, came with a generic wood stock. I was able to half itís grouping size by changing to a 1945 RIA replacement stock.

Mine likes Remington factory .30 Carbine. It seems to be a bit slower than the 1960s US surplus ball I found and shot, but is more accurate.
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Old 04-16-2018, 08:55 AM
jeeps jeeps is offline
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Just use ball,S-B,P.P.U. Remington.


b
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Old 04-16-2018, 09:34 AM
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I have 3 GI M1 Carbines, and I have owned half-a-dozen others over the years. Within the original parameters of design and performance the M1 Carbine is a fine piece. However, the M1 Carbine was never intended to be a precision shooting instrument. Very few will deliver even 3 minutes of angle, and most will be closer to 6 MOA at 100 yards. The cartridge itself is not a high performing choice for any application, being most similar to the older .32-20 round. Bullets of sufficient strength to withstand the semi-auto feeding cycle are not likely to provide reliable expansion at Carbine velocities.

The M1 Carbine was a WW2 expedient, originally intended to fill the role of a sidearm (pistol) for support troops, vehicle crews, and other roles not directly involved in combat operations, but with greater likelihood of placing effective aimed fire within moderate ranges. Accepting the Carbine for what it was originally intended offers a greater probability of satisfaction than any fantasies about potential performance.

That said, some modest improvement in performance can be achieved by paying close attention to the fit of the rear receiver lug into the steel tang mounted to the Carbine stock, and some attention to fitting of the fore-end and barrel/stock band.

Original WW2 15-round mags do not feature a bolt-hold-open feature when the last round has been fired. Korean War issue 30-round mags do have the hold-open feature, but the hold-open function does not always work properly. Best non-USGI mags I have used have been the South Korean military-issue 30-round mags, which are the equal of USGI in my opinion. Magazine selection might be an issue for those intending to use the Carbine as a defensive piece.

I'm sure there are several factory ammo offerings with much-improved bullet designs these days, but I wouldn't get too worked up over any of them without extensive testing. Personally, I continue to hoard a 200-round supply of 1970's era Norma 110JHP's, and the majority of my Carbine shooting is done with 115-grain RNFP-GC hard cast bullets of my own production and hand-loading. About 20 years ago I came across a deal on Russian "Wolf" brand .30 Carbine ammo, Berdan primed, lacquered steel cases, 110-grain FMJ-RN, which performs very well in my Carbines. Most of my brass cases are Lake City 1960's production which have been reloaded a dozen times or more, with none showing any signs of ever wearing out.

M1 Carbines rode with me for years as a working cop, and I continue to keep one handy in the vehicle on road trips. I also keep one ready as part of my home defense plan.
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Old 04-16-2018, 10:09 AM
Weimar Weimar is offline
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Kinda expensive, but the Hornady Critical Defense in 30 carbine fed well in my carbine - there are several youtubes on them,
just google youtube 30 carbine Hornady
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Old 04-16-2018, 12:10 PM
stansdds stansdds is offline
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As with what others have said, the M1 Carbine is not and never was intended to be a precision rifle. 4 inch groups at 100 yards is actually good for an M1 Carbine.
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Old 04-16-2018, 03:13 PM
hdwhit hdwhit is offline
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Quote:
Square Pizza wrote:
...still wanting to play with a carbine...

and

I tried the older Hornady XTP, which had great expansion but terrible feeding.
Who made the carbine?

Who made the magazines you are using?
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Old 04-16-2018, 10:48 PM
Ivan the Butcher Ivan the Butcher is online now
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I have been playing with and loading for M-1 Carbines since 1979. Most of what should be said about the M-1 has already been covered above!

On factory ammo; I have had very good success with Winchester Soft Hollow Points, I picked up 6 boxes at a very good price, at a gun store closing. I have scoped 2 of my M-1's and have a T-3 Night scoped 1943 IBM. With 4x scopes you will/should be able to keep 5 shots in a groundhog sized target at 200 yards. (5 or 6") with this ammo.
Note: All American ammo ever made is primed with non-corrosive primers. HOWEVER: there was a batch of Chinese made ammo marked 44 that is Berdan Primed and extremely corrosive!(This hit the country in the early to mid 80's and is in boxes that say it is American made!)

I have found that my wife and my daughter have trouble holding up a full sized AR, AK or bolt action rifle; but could use M-1 Carbines without and strength issues (Mini-14 were the only other rifle that worked for them and never tried a M-4 cloan). 30 round magazines were made for full auto M-2 Carbines! They interfere with prone shooting and shooting through some barricades, I stick with the 15 round version. I picked up a crate of 100 about 25 years ago and kept 20 (a real lifetime supply!) When doing farm work, one mag will be far more than all the pests I get a shot at in a day. When carrying for hunting or plinking, 1 in the carbine and a few in the pockets are plenty (for the end of the world, you can't carry all you will need!)

General comment; The 32-20 rifle loading is about the same thing power wise and the M-1 is a semi-auto for fast follow-up shots.

30 carbine has had all the power needed to put car struck animals out of their misery, up to and including steers. With 110 grain factory ammo, it is the same power as a 357 mag 110 grain out of a lever action or a little more! I don't hunt with FMJ ammo in any rifle or hand gun! And I don't try to shoot 600 yard targets/game with a 200 yard gun and ammo either. If you stay within the limitations of the M-1 Carbine, you should be quite satisfied.

Ivan

On reloads; stick to WW296/H110 for powder! On cast bullets you must use bullets with a gas check, unless you wish to clog the gas system! I use 115 grain FP or RN bullets sized to .309" and on heavily worn barrels sized to .314". These should be hard cast! There are kits for hollow pointing bullets with either 1/16" or 1/8" drill bits, with the hard cast bullets I use the 1/8" hole! I bought the Carbide sizing die back in the early 80's when they were $70, this is a round you don't want to use Lube on! All military ammo I saw has crimped primers, the need removed befor you try to insert new primers.
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Old 04-17-2018, 03:02 AM
SquarePizza SquarePizza is offline
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To answer a few questions:

Its a national postal meter carbine, with USGI mags

I can live with 4 MOA if I cannot make a better load for it, but I do want to see if I can squeeze a little more accuracy out of a hand load. Since ARs are out for me. I wanted to do 3 gun for fun at local clubs but the safe acct dropped the ban hammer on those events. So instead of thinking ARs, I want to dust off the old little M1 and I would love to take a carbine course with the little guy.

And for defensive loads/ball, its a handy gun and one that the fiance can handle without issue. So I would like to set up a decent load for her so she has a go-to house gun if need be. Since I have a small homestead, most house/carry guns are called into service to shoot something trying to eat a chicken, or raid the garden. =P

Last edited by SquarePizza; 04-17-2018 at 03:04 AM.
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Old 04-17-2018, 10:22 AM
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I have used 2400 and IMR 4227 for .30 Carbine with no problems, but H110 is close to the GI propellant originally used and is probably best. WW297 is essentially identical to H110. You can't get enough IMR 4227 (or H 4227) in the case to get a MV over about 1750 ft/sec, but otherwise such loads function OK. At least you don't have to worry about overloads.

I also have a Ruger Blackhawk in .30 Carbine. I do not like to shoot it with GI or GI-equivalent loads - too much noise and muzzle blast to suit me. I normally load ammunition for it to approximate .32-20 levels.
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Old 04-17-2018, 12:23 PM
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The Speer 30 cal. 100 grain Plinker is a RN design with a lot of soft exposed lead...tends to expand rather well. The half jacket eliminates any possibility of leading.
Gary

Last edited by gwpercle; 04-17-2018 at 12:25 PM.
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Old 04-21-2018, 03:23 AM
Scott in NCal Scott in NCal is offline
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The 30 carbine has more retained energy at 100 yards than a 4" 357 mag has at the muzzle. So long as it is reliable I suspect any soft point in the 30 carbine is more than up to the task of home defense.
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Old 04-21-2018, 06:37 AM
Forrest r Forrest r is offline
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You need to look around for a cramer #50 mold. They cast a bullet that was designed for the 30 carbine. The cramer mold I have casts a sp and a hp gas checked bullet.


They are an accurate bullet, playing around @ 50yds with a 308, a 10-shot group


Those hp's really put the smack on anything they hit. I cast them out of nothing more than range scrap (8/9bhn).
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Old 04-21-2018, 10:48 AM
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"HOWEVER: there was a batch of Chinese made ammo marked 44 that is Berdan Primed and extremely corrosive!(This hit the country in the early to mid 80's and is in boxes that say it is American made!)"

Regarding military ammunition, all U.S. GI .30 Carbine ammunition has always used noncorrosive primers. That was part of the original military specification, and at that time it was the only U. S. military small arms round which was made using NC primers as standard. That was necessary as there was no good way to clean the carbine's gas port and tappet. In addition to the Chinese L C headstamped .30 Carbine ammunition mentioned (and I have some of it in my collection, headstamped L C 52), there is also French and Dominican Republic-made corrosive primed military ammunition that shows up occasionally. And maybe from other sources I don't know of. It's good to be wary of any military .30 Carbine ammunition having a foreign headstamp.

I don't have the story about the corrosive Chinese L C - headstamped ammunition, but I do have a theory. If anyone knows details I would be interested to know them.

Last edited by DWalt; 04-21-2018 at 10:58 AM.
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Old 04-21-2018, 01:26 PM
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I would be shocked if you ever get a M-! carbine to shoot better than 3 MOA. It was intended to replace a pistol for personal defense for second line troops and not to be a main battle rifle. They are GREAT fun to shoot, I use one in three-gun matches with some regularity. They are not match rifles.
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Old 04-21-2018, 01:26 PM
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Just buy a NEW Inland Marine T30 Sniper version (with scope)

The soft point bullets used for years work very well.

Inland Manufacturing M1 T30 Carbine
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Old 04-22-2018, 08:21 AM
2152hq 2152hq is offline
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Some work to tighten up the attachment point betw the recv'r and the stock lug at the back of the recv'r helps as already mentioned.
Having the action and componets in some sort of solid bedding then helps to settle the thing down. The front bbl band, handguard,stock arrangement usually needs some attention as they can put various side, up or down pressure on the bbl when assembled.

All this is really nothing more than what you'd expect of any rifle you pick up and examine before shooting.
If you looked over your bolt action sporter and saw that the action could be shucked back and forth in the wood, the trigger group/guard was a moving unit or that the bbl moved like a compass pointer as you tightened things down,,you wouldn't expect much from 'her at the range either.

Basic bedding will help a lot.
Things like a crunchy 6# trigger pull you might have to live with unless you feel comfortable delving into such complexities.
Some of them aren't too bad though!

Check the sights, they can be sloppy fit within the unit itself and move around with each shot giving you a new adjustment each time. That ='s a new point of aim though you are not aware of it. It only takes a few .000 of change to effect it of course,,just like a turning a sight adj a click or two each shot in different directions randomly and seeing what kind of group you get.

The best I ever got w/my Winchester M1 Carbine was just over 3" at 100m, and that wasn't something I could repeat very often. Usually more like 4" groups.
But they were much better than the 6+ inch groups I started with before the tinkering.
It looked like a real tackdriver at 50m!
All with surplus WW2 ammunition. I never reloaded for it.

All gone now, kind of miss it.
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Old 04-22-2018, 10:20 AM
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As I understand it, Audie Murphy said the carbine was the best thing for cleaning out a house full of Germans.
‘Nuff said.
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Old 04-22-2018, 04:55 PM
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A retired Marine officer I once worked with saw a lot of action in Korea. He once told me that he never shot anyone with his carbine who didn't fall down and stay down. He also carried a K-38 Combat Masterpiece.
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