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Old 04-28-2018, 02:49 PM
1sailor 1sailor is online now
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Default SNS cautioning about titegroup!!?

I went to the SNS bullet site to put in an order and noticed they had a caution stating that the use of titegroup was a recurring theme regarding leaded barrels. They recommend switching powders. I thought this was unusual because Titegroup has always been my go to powder for cast bullets ever since I first tried it a few years ago. I use it for 9mm, .40S&W, 45acp, and .357 and have never had any problems with leading at all. Maybe some guys are just trying to use titegroup to push their bullets too fast or something. I have also talked to a lot of other reloaders who use Titegroup almost exclusively with cast pistol bullets. I wonder if Titegroup is really the issue. If a large percentage of reloaders are using titegroup with cast bullets it only makes sense that a lot of the guys who are having leading issues would also be using it. In any event, since I have had no problems to this point I don't intend to change now. Interesting, I just went back to their site and it looks like they've changed their warning to read "powders with fast or hot burn rates. So I guess they're not singling out Titegroup anymore.
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Old 04-28-2018, 03:45 PM
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Well that is a mouth full! If they are talking about COATED BULLETS??
Maybe they don't know how to properly coat bullets with Hi-Tek Supercoat

Odd that other vendors that use the same coating do not issue any warnings.??

I have some posts on here using a propane torch directly on a coated bullets and nothing happens to it. I have also smashed the heck out of them with a hammer and a vise and no flaking or chipping.

I don't use TG but do use BE and no issues.

Coating Instructions - Hi-Performance Bullet Coatings
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Old 04-28-2018, 04:19 PM
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Default I haven't used SNS......

...but I've never had a leading problem with any coated bullet or powder.
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Old 04-28-2018, 04:37 PM
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Titegroup is a very high nitro content powder and it runs extremely hot. Though I do have a few select places where I like Titegroup, I quite specifically avoid it in .38 and .357 for sure across the board -- and my reason is simple. I choose to eject my brass in the familiar and common fashion where the left hand wraps around the cylinder and when I run Titegroup, it burns my hand. The cylinder gets FAR too hot.

Folks have had trouble using Titegroup with cast bullets in the past. In my experience, it isn't always trouble with lead bullets, but I think it's probably much easier when you run a business to simply suggest your customers avoid this powder.

I actually use it for swaged hollow-base wadcutters in .32 S&W Long and for that, it works well.
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Old 04-28-2018, 04:45 PM
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I suppose anything's possible I just have never seen it. I've fired literally thousands of SNS coated bullets in all the pistol calibers I reload for and never had an issue. Based on Rule3's hammer testing I just tried the same with an SNS 130 grain coated bullet. I beat it until it was flat and didn't experience any coating loss so the quality of their coating probably isn't the issue.
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Old 04-28-2018, 05:24 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sevens View Post
I choose to eject my brass in the familiar and common fashion where the left hand wraps around the cylinder and when I run Titegroup, it burns my hand. The cylinder gets FAR too hot.
I'll back that claim up. I tried a couple boxes of .44 Magnums loaded with Titegroup, one of light plinkers, and one Magnum-level. After each string of slow fire (629, 5-shot strings), the cylinder was noticeably hot with both loads. Uncomfortable to the touch, but not at the I-got-an-actual-burn point.

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Old 04-28-2018, 05:26 PM
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Hello
Sevens is correct about Titegroup having an abundance of nitroglycerin.
If you want to see more chemistry spectrum analysis of current powders check this site out;
National Center for Forensic Science

Here is an analysis of Titegroup;



Notice the nitroglycerin spike is way on top..

Here is a analysis for HP-38



The nitroglycerin spike isn't as high.

Anyway pretty interesting site to explore.

I haven't used enough Titegroup to come to any definite conclusions.
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Old 04-28-2018, 05:36 PM
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The site has been changed from "Don't use titegroup" to "don't use any of the 15 fastest powders on this chart". Since Titegroup is #15 on the chart I'm guessing that's why they specify the first 15. I've never noticed the cylinders getting especially hot but that may have to do with our shooting styles. I shoot outdoors, slow fire (typically), single action. So even though I'll go through 300+ rounds at a sitting it may be over a longer period of time.

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Old 04-28-2018, 05:39 PM
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I use Titegroup in 9mm primarily. I do like it in 9mm but I will admit I do have to do a bit of scrubbing in the barrel to get all the melted lead out, not that its that much but it is stuck pretty good. Not so much with w231. Have never found any powder I didn't have to do a bit of cleaning up after.
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Old 04-28-2018, 05:43 PM
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I've used Titegroup in the past with cast bullets. At one point during the last drought it was the only thing regularly on the shelf. It works, but it's very hot and the window of success with cast bullets seems to be pretty narrow. Push it just a bit further and you've got problems. In other words, it's probably the monkey, not the wrench. SnS has probably had complaints and is just doing deflection with an, "It's not me, it's you." response.

With a cast bullet, if you're getting any kind of leading in your barrel that takes more than two or three minutes to clean up, you've got one of three issues, or a combination thereof:

The bullet is too soft. (not likely with modern commercially cast bullets)

You're pushing the projectile too fast (probable, but if they're kept to a maximum of 1200 fps this shouldn't be a concern)

The bullet is undersized for the bore.

The last point is the most common culprit when leading is encountered. The same applies with the polymer coated bullets, only it's polymer build up instead of lead, which is even a bigger pain to remove. Make sure the projectile is properly sized to your pistols bore and it's easy peasy. This is a very critical issue with 9mm handguns. Being the most common service pistol cartridge in the world, guns are made to a wide range of tolerances and I've never seen a wider range in bore diameter than I have with 9mm.

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Old 04-28-2018, 05:51 PM
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I use Titegroup in a couple applications, but NOT in my Blackhawk, my fingers are in too much contact with the cylinder while pushing out empties.

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Old 04-28-2018, 06:58 PM
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Power pistol and Longshot have high Nitro content and do not burn things up.

Why anyone would use fast burning powders like TG or BE in 357 mag or 44 mag is beyond me??

As I said before the many other vendors out there have no "reports" of fast powders burning up their coating I have no idea why SNS is saying this?

Their warning doe NOT specific what bullets? Regular cast or the ones they are coating?? Bullseye powder has been used for many many years and is a popular powder for cast lead bullets in 38 special and 45 acp, so their "warning" makes no sense to me.

For COATED BULLETS A propane torch directly on the bullet (blue flame) did not cut through the coating.

But I do not use their bullets so it means little to me either.
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Old 04-28-2018, 07:14 PM
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I don't use TG for any real "magnum loads" in my 357's. I usually load to about midway between magnum and a 38+p.
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Old 04-28-2018, 09:28 PM
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Exclamation sevens nailed it!

I was using TiteGroup in my very mild 38 Short Colt ammo for use in steel matches. After 5 runs in a 627 the barrel and cylinder were too hot to touch for long. I switched to Vihtavouri N310 for a very mild, cool shooting steel load.

A shooting buddy blew up his brand new 627 8-shooter with a TiteGroup major power factor load. It happened during a match and we never found any of the pieces. He sent the gun to S&W and they said there were no discernable gun flaws. They also refused to sell him another 627 but did sell a 625 to him wholesale. All of us except the shooter believe he had a double charge.
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Old 04-28-2018, 09:30 PM
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Default NO FAST POWDERS???

Guessing that would include bullseye that has only been around FOREVER. NO PROBLEMS with TG in my 226 9mm using cast. IF HOTRODDING???
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Old 04-28-2018, 09:54 PM
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1sailor, unlike you, I have run into leading problems with SNS bullets and don't buy them any more because of that. If I am buying coated bullets, I buy from Bayou or MBC instead as I have not had any significant leading problems with either of those companies coated bullets. With the leading issue that occurred with SNS bullets for me, they were loaded to the same powder charge that I had loaded Bayou bullets of the same design to with no problems. These were relatively hotter rounds that were loaded in the 1100-1200 ft/sec range with 9MM, 357 Mag and 44 Mag. To use up the rest of my SNS bullet supply, I backed the powder down so that they performed in the 800-900 ft/sec range and leading went away. The powders I was using at the time were Longshot and WSF mostly. In 44 Mag I couldn't load Longshot down far enough to make the SNS bullets quit leading so I went to HP38, 700-X and Accurate #2 and the leading issues went away at the lower load velocities.

As an aside, I never have messed with TG; there are other powders I am already familiar with that suit my loading habits well.
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Old 04-28-2018, 10:12 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nachogrande View Post
Guessing that would include bullseye that has only been around FOREVER. NO PROBLEMS with TG in my 226 9mm using cast. IF HOTRODDING???
I as well shoot a ton with Bullseye and have started using Tight group under swagged Hornady and Speer 357 and 44 magnum. They are light loads mine you but no leading and really accurate.
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Old 04-29-2018, 06:12 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rule3 View Post
Why anyone would use fast burning powders like TG or BE in 357 mag or 44 mag is beyond me??
There are two answers. One:

Because you can generate higher pressures--for shorter periods of time--without dealing with the recoil of higher velocities. They shoot cleaner, and spent cases eject easily because the chambers sealed.

9mm operates at around the same pressure you'd be aiming for with mild .44 Magnums (30-35k PSI), and it's a fine powder to use if you don't need to make PF.

The other:

Nothing special happens when you append "Magnum" to the end of a handgun cartridge. It's just a combustion chamber. It's the same as all the other ones.

Turns out, Bullseye is pretty kickin' at .45 ACP, using anything from a 185-grain to 230-grain lead bullet (although I prefer WST).

.44 Magnum also uses lead bullets, usually anywhere from 180 grains to 255. What makes these two cartridges different? If you're making nice, easy-shootin' ammo, Bullseye works equally well in either. If you're trying to max out velocity, then Bullseye is a poor choice in both.
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Old 04-29-2018, 06:12 AM
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Quote:
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Why anyone would use fast burning powders like TG or BE in 357 mag or 44 mag is beyond me??
There are reasons, good reasons. Titegroup is for certain the LEAST position sensitve powder I have ever used, and I have used dozens of powders. For a very light target load in a large volume case, most powders use only a fraction of the space and shot to shot variances are simply ridiculous. Not so with Titegroup.

I use a 5.7gr charge of Titegroup under a 240gr cast LSWC in .44 Magnum that returns 870fps from a 7.5" Redhawk. It's the epitome of pleasant and the steel plate rack loves it.
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Old 04-29-2018, 08:19 AM
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Yes, you are shooting target loads not magnum loads. Might as well shoot 44 Special

Just a few more grains or a double charge and your pressure spikes and that's why it is called Tite Boom.

So little powder in such a big case. It's even more fun when used in 9mm and 40 SW.
But whatever, so many powders so many choices.

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Old 04-29-2018, 08:29 AM
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Many shooters in our Bullseye club have been using Titegroup for years with no problems. Normally I can go at least 500rounds or more in my 45ACP without worrying about bore cleaning and get no leading at all.

IMHO, bore leading is most often caused by poor bullet fit, then by in-adequate lube, last by either too hard or soft alloy. Worrying about "gas/flame" temperature of the powder is an "internet" thing.

AFAIC, the only downside to using Titegroup(or other like powders) is that it's so dense, it doesn't take up much space and it can lead to double-charging if you're not vigilant.
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Old 04-29-2018, 09:05 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by springer99 View Post
Many shooters in our Bullseye club have been using Titegroup for years with no problems. Normally I can go at least 500rounds or more in my 45ACP without worrying about bore cleaning and get no leading at all.

IMHO, bore leading is most often caused by poor bullet fit, then by in-adequate lube, last by either too hard or soft alloy. Worrying about "gas/flame" temperature of the powder is an "internet" thing.

AFAIC, the only downside to using Titegroup(or other like powders) is that it's so dense, it doesn't take up much space and it can lead to double-charging if you're not vigilant.
Titegroup is a great powder. Meters great, small charges and very accurate in a large range of calibers. Poster above is spot on
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Old 04-29-2018, 09:32 AM
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Tightgroup is nice, but it burns hot. I have noticed more burned wire insulation smell using coated bullets with Tightgroup in general. Also the fiber optic insert in the front sight takes on a crispy dull quality much sooner than when using other fast powders like Clays, Clay Dot, Bullseye, N320, HP38.
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Old 04-29-2018, 10:07 AM
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I came back to reloading about a year ago. The LGS had only Titegroup in stock at the time. I primarily load .38 Special, 9mm, and .45 ACP at target velocities. I weigh each charge and charge each case directly from the scale. The case goes to the press and the bullet is immediately seated. TG is economical for me. I have yet had a problem with overcharging, leading, etc. If it ain't broke don't fix it.
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Old 04-29-2018, 10:53 AM
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Talking MAYBE IT'S CUZ I'M CHEAP.

+/- 3 grs of bullseye or tightgroup, in a 38 special with cast 148gr boolits make a pound of powder go a long way. Does it fill up a case as much as I would prefer, NO. An increased risk for a double charge? YES, especially if the person using it rushes the job, lacks experience, is prone to senior moments. You COULD use MANY more grains of a more expensive powder I suppose. DO I use bullseye cuz I'm cheap, OR cuz it has been PROVEN to work so well, for so long??? BOTH I guess.
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Old 04-29-2018, 01:00 PM
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I haven't used any Titegroup in a while, but did buy a couple of pounds several years ago to compare cast bullet loads against those loaded with Bullseye powder. I found the two powders were similar as to accuracy and velocity, but two pounds in 9mm, .38 Special, .44 Special, and .45 ACP is not extensive testing.

Never noticed the "heat" phenomenon, if there is really is one, but perhaps there's some factual information on this, like from Hodgdon.
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Old 04-29-2018, 01:20 PM
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TG is too low volume for my tastes. I prefer a powder where an overload overflows. Hard to miss that.

I've read many comments on TG over the years, and there are enough made about the low volume and burning hot to convince me to stick with my HP-38. Squeezing a few extra rounds out of a pound of powder isn't that important with me as having confidence that a double load won't seat a bullet. I've had next to no leading with my current powder, so why mess with what suits me.
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Old 04-29-2018, 01:45 PM
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I see a lot of comments from guys who won't use TG because they are concerned with double charging. I have never fully understood this. Every loading manual I have ever seen has clearly shown and labeled the maximum safe load. It is simply a matter of following directions and not putting a heavier charge than listed as safe. contrary to what many will have you believe, TG is not out to trick you in any way. Titegroup doesn't double charge, people double charge. If double charging is really an issue then it might be better to change loading practices rather than blame the components.

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Old 04-29-2018, 02:29 PM
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Tightgroup has become my ďgo toĒ powder over the last few years. I use it I. .45ACP, 9mm, .38 Special and 44/40.

In .45ACP the published max load did not make PF so I ended up going slightly higher. In 9mm I use the max load listed, although it makes PF easily it is more accurate than the load that makes PF with only a small margin.

Except for 44/40 all these Calibres use plated bullets. I tried TG using 230 gn LRN in .45 ACP but got much better accuracy with W231 so reverted back to the later powder.

The only other calibre I load plain lead bullets is .357 Magnum using a 100 gn LFP for CAS. Again TG was not as accurate as my old .38 Special load of 10.5 gn Mulwex AR2205, so I reverted again to the old powder (need to use .357 cases in my Henry Big Boy to feed properly but at CAS velocities).

Funnily enough I got better accuracy in 44/40 with TG over AR2205, but loads are mild (5.5 in my Uberti revolvers and 5 gn in my Rossi 92. (Thatís just the way it worked for best accuracy in each firearm) As the revolvers are used for CAS and the Ď92 for Wild Bunch events I donít get the loads mixed up on the range).

I do notices that cases are ďwarmĒ, especially the .45ís, but I pick the cases up before checking targets. And no leading with either plated or plain lead bullets.
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Old 04-29-2018, 03:30 PM
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I see a lot of comments from guys who won't use TG because they are concerned with double charging. I have never fully understood this. Every loading manual I have ever seen has clearly shown and labeled the maximum safe load. It is simply a matter of following directions and not putting a heavier charge than listed as safe. contrary to what many will have you believe, TG is not out to trick you in any way. Titegroup doesn't double charge, people double charge. If double charging is really an issue then it might be better to change loading practices rather than blame the components.
Not all reloaders are as careful or precise as you are, of all the Glock 40 caliber kbooms, I bet most where due to TG and a progressive press.

True it is not the powder per say, it is the speed of burn speed of the powder regardless if it is TG, BE or any of the top fastest powers.

No, it doen't need to be a double charge. Look at the pressure between a start and max load. There is not much margin there. About 0.5 grains in say 9mm. So with the super fast burn rates, pressure can exceed max very easily.

Unless you shooting 100ds or thousands of rounds, the cost for powder is cheap, relative to the projectile, primers and reloading gear.

Reloaders will spend thousands on presses, dies, washing machines and gadgets and then think they save money by using 3 grains of powder vs 5 grains.

Using fast powders for "magnum" loads (which in reality are true Max, velocity max pressure loads) makes no sense as max velocity is found with the slower powders

If one states they are shooting 357 magnum or 44 magnum and only loading for target velocity then they are really not magnum loads, but 38 special and 44 special in magnum brass.

Heck my 45 acp target load is more potent than the 44 mag load (target load) listed in a previous post so it really is not a 44 magnum just a load in that brass.


But this is all off the topic of SNS bullets melting or leading

I have used thousands of MBC regular lead bullets in many calibers, many powders and not issue.
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Old 04-29-2018, 05:20 PM
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While TG is economical it isn't the reason I use it. For starters, it meters almost perfectly through my Lee auto-disc pro. That allows me to load up 300 rounds pretty quickly. It would take twice as long if I had to weigh each charge. I get some really accurate loads with it in the upper midrange all the way down to reduced powder loads. I've never had any issues at all with leading and my pistols seem to clean up quickly. If I'm loading closer to the upper limits with jacketed bullets then I either use Longshot (which also meters well) or H110. With H110 I do have to weigh every charge. Titegroup is not my go to for most of my jacketed bullets but it seems (at least for me) to be one of the better powders I've tried for cast bullets. Powder is about the cheapest component involved in reloading. The difference between the cheapest powder and the more expensive powders amounts to about 50 cents to a dollar per box so being economical was never important to me.
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Old 04-29-2018, 06:45 PM
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TG is too low volume for my tastes. I prefer a powder where an overload overflows. Hard to miss that.

I've read many comments on TG over the years, and there are enough made about the low volume and burning hot to convince me to stick with my HP-38. Squeezing a few extra rounds out of a pound of powder isn't that important with me as having confidence that a double load won't seat a bullet. I've had next to no leading with my current powder, so why mess with what suits me.
My thoughts too, I always use a powder that more then 1/2 fills the case, real easy to see an overcharge.
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Old 04-29-2018, 06:52 PM
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I completely agree that safety is a prime concern. However, I have never been able to figure out how you can end up with a double charge unless you actually put too much powder in. They don't just happen. Somebody has to physically put more powder in the case then the manual calls for. Just don't do that.
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Old 04-29-2018, 07:00 PM
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I see a lot of comments from guys who won't use TG because they are concerned with double charging. I have never fully understood this. Every loading manual I have ever seen has clearly shown and labeled the maximum safe load. It is simply a matter of following directions and not putting a heavier charge than listed as safe. contrary to what many will have you believe, TG is not out to trick you in any way. Titegroup doesn't double charge, people double charge. If double charging is really an issue then it might be better to change loading practices rather than blame the components.
Bridging, inattention, etc.

I load 50 cases at a time with a powder dropper. Using HP-38, in many, many drops, only once have I had to make an adjustment to my setting. All cases are eyeballed for consistent levels of powder prior to bullet seating. A double load of my powder simply won't fit in an empty case. TG would.

Those who choose to use TG are welcome to it; it is simply not the powder I wish to use. That's why there is more than one powder.
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Old 04-29-2018, 07:12 PM
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I completely agree that safety is a prime concern. However, I have never been able to figure out how you can end up with a double charge unless you actually put too much powder in. They don't just happen. Somebody has to physically put more powder in the case then the manual calls for. Just don't do that.
It happens more than the internet reports.

Two pulls on your Lee Disc charge, imagine how it could happen on a progressive press?

Nothing is 100% fool proof. Stuff happens.
This is not "anti TG, just care with fast powders

If someone loads using a reloading block and checks each and every round, they are pretty much safe. But then if they single stage load like that, they are not loading enough ammo to save any money on few grains of powder.
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Old 04-29-2018, 07:25 PM
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Yes, you are shooting target loads not magnum loads. Might as well shoot 44 Special

Just a few more grains or a double charge and your pressure spikes and that's why it is called Tite Boom.

So little powder in such a big case. It's even more fun when used in 9mm and 40 SW.
But whatever, so many powders so many choices.

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Actually, if you read carefully, I'm still loading to the same pressure. Increasing pressure without increasing velocity was the exact reason to use it.

I don't know of any powder that would handle a double-charge or "a few more grains" particularly well.

Railing against those loads as not being "Magnum" seems rather silly to me. Is 2400 not a "Magnum" powder because W296 exists? If you're up into the 30k PSI range, well...it sure ain't a "Special", that's for sure.

Quote:
Not all reloaders are as careful or precise as you are, of all the Glock 40 caliber kbooms, I bet most where due to TG and a progressive press.
Two things on this.

One is that Titegroup is an awfully popular powder with the shoot-fast types. If a lot of people load and shoot large volumes of a particular combination, then you're going to see more accidents with it. That doesn't necessarily mean the combination is unsafe, it simply means more people are using it.

The other thing is that you're making a claim with zero information backing you up, which can't be disproven adequately because nobody keeps a record of this sort of thing. Here, watch this:

"Ammunition failures in Glock .40 and .357 Sig are most commonly the result of bullet setback."

The difference is, we know bullet setback is an issue in .40 and .357 Sig cartridges, both in reloads and commercial ammunition. Hint-hint.
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Old 04-29-2018, 09:40 PM
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I suppose anything's possible I just have never seen it. I've fired literally thousands of SNS coated bullets in all the pistol calibers I reload for and never had an issue. Based on Rule3's hammer testing I just tried the same with an SNS 130 grain coated bullet. I beat it until it was flat and didn't experience any coating loss so the quality of their coating probably isn't the issue.
I agree. I don't think it is the coating. I've pushed some SNS Coated Lead pretty hard and never had any leading problems. Although not with Titegroup, I've pushed the 158gr and 130gr from SNS over 1200fps with not the first issue with leading
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Old 04-30-2018, 09:25 AM
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If someone loads using a reloading block and checks each and every round, they are pretty much safe. But then if they single stage load like that, they are not loading enough ammo to save any money on few grains of powder.
69,947 documented rounds loaded, mostly handgun and across more than a dozen chamberings since Jan 1, 2013.

Every single powder charge in the 69,947 dropped from a Lyman 55, all visually checked in a load block.

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Old 04-30-2018, 03:26 PM
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I see a lot of comments from guys who won't use TG because they are concerned with double charging. I have never fully understood this. Every loading manual I have ever seen has clearly shown and labeled the maximum safe load. It is simply a matter of following directions and not putting a heavier charge than listed as safe. contrary to what many will have you believe, TG is not out to trick you in any way. Titegroup doesn't double charge, people double charge. If double charging is really an issue then it might be better to change loading practices rather than blame the components.
The issue with such a low volume powder is not technique but ability to easily determine a double charge in a case. Hodgdon managed to do just about everything to make it diff to determine a charge by visual means. Dark color, small volume, very easy to double in a large case & miss one & it only takes one.
The other issue is the extreme high heat level on ignition. Hot enough that a fast/long string on a hot day can melt the FO insert on a front sight. Yes I have seen it done. I am a very exp reloader & I wont use it as long as there are other options & there are quite a few of those.
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Old 04-30-2018, 03:28 PM
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I completely agree that safety is a prime concern. However, I have never been able to figure out how you can end up with a double charge unless you actually put too much powder in. They don't just happen. Somebody has to physically put more powder in the case then the manual calls for. Just don't do that.
As noted, it can happen, does happen, why so many guns get blown up using TG. It used to be a problem with Bullseye too, small charge volume, dark color, large case. SS press or progressive, krap happens. So anything that helps mitigate that is encouraged IMO. Most reloaders, especially new ones, will choose TG because it is cheap. Well it isn't very cheap when it cost you a new gun or visit to the ER.
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Old 05-02-2018, 12:39 PM
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SNS is selling only coated bullets?
Why would they say that any of the 15 fastest powders would cause leading when the whole idea of PC is to prevent leading. Something must be wrong with their coating. I often shoot 0.356" sized 9mm even in my 0.357" slugged 92fs and never get leading. The worst thing that should happen is that some of the polymer gets gas cut and deposits itself in the grooves as soot.



This is easily cleaned with a wet patch of CLP, Hoppes No9 or Rem Oil.

In addition, if you load for proper pressure (fast powders for slower velocities and slower powders for high power), the bullets will obturate to seal the bore and you end up with little or no gas cutting of the PC and even cleaner barrels. Never lead.
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Old 05-02-2018, 12:43 PM
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I'll reiterate: if you're getting leading problems look at your reloading practices. Regardless of projectile type, if it takes you more than two or three minutes to clean the bore you're doing something wrong.

BTW: SnS buys their polymer coating from Bayoux.
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Old 05-02-2018, 03:12 PM
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SNS is selling only coated bullets?
Why would they say that any of the 15 fastest powders would cause leading when the whole idea of PC is to prevent leading. Something must be wrong with their coating. I often shoot 0.356" sized 9mm even in my 0.357" slugged 92fs and never get leading. The worst thing that should happen is that some of the polymer gets gas cut and deposits itself in the grooves as soot.


This is easily cleaned with a wet patch of CLP, Hoppes No9 or Rem Oil.

In addition, if you load for proper pressure (fast powders for slower velocities and slower powders for high power), the bullets will obturate to seal the bore and you end up with little or no gas cutting of the PC and even cleaner barrels. Never lead.
I believe the issue is the high heat of TG on ignition burning the coating & exposing the lead. At least with conventional lubes, you can see the coating being burned off by the huge cloud of smoke with most lubes & TG. The coatings will melt at about 700deg, I am sure ignition temps with TG are much higher than that.
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Old 05-02-2018, 06:06 PM
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That may be correct. However, that excessive temp is for only the tiniest fraction of a second. So while I can see that the possibility exists to burn some of the coating off of the base I just don't see it happening to the entire bullet. In particular it seems odd that it could be blamed for so many leading problems when so many use it as their go to for cast bullets.
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Old 05-02-2018, 07:15 PM
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Exceptions to everything, but most leading is caused by poor bullet fit (usually wrong diameter) or (to a much lesser extent) wrong alloy. Powder would be way, way down the list of causes.

I've been casting for many cartridges, rifle and handgun for quite a while. I've never been able to attribute leading to any powder, including Titegroup.

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Old 05-02-2018, 09:17 PM
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Hmm. One of the guys I shoot IDPA with claims he had leading issues with SNS. Iím pretty sure he uses titegroup. He switched to ACME and isnít having any issues. Iíve never tried SNS, but I have loaded quite a few Bayou, H&S, and Slugfest coated bullets with Promo (#8) on that burn rate list, and no leading issues.
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Old 05-03-2018, 01:09 AM
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I have shot 1000s of Bayou and Missouri coated bullets with Bullseye, VV N310 ans #2 without any issues whatsoever.
Don't care for Tightgroup, however.
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Old 05-03-2018, 11:45 AM
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There is obviously something more going on here than either titegroup or SNS quality. There are just too many of us here that have loaded many thousands of rounds of cast bullets with Titegroup and SNS coated bullets with zero issues. I have been using both for a long time (been using SNS since long before coated bullets were even available) and have been absolutely pleased with both powder and bullets. I think rather than a blanket warning about fast powders (titegroup) they should have recommended that those with leading issues have their bores slugged. By the way, I ordered bullets one time from ACME. Cute little wooden boxes and all but, the lube had fallen out from almost every bullet and they were pretty much unusable. I suppose that wouldn't be an issue now if they're using coated also.
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Old 05-03-2018, 12:35 PM
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That may be correct. However, that excessive temp is for only the tiniest fraction of a second. So while I can see that the possibility exists to burn some of the coating off of the base I just don't see it happening to the entire bullet. In particular it seems odd that it could be blamed for so many leading problems when so many use it as their go to for cast bullets.
You do NOT need an entire breech of the coating to get leading. You just need it in a critical area.
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Old 05-03-2018, 12:38 PM
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Hmm. One of the guys I shoot IDPA with claims he had leading issues with SNS. Iím pretty sure he uses titegroup. He switched to ACME and isnít having any issues. Iíve never tried SNS, but I have loaded quite a few Bayou, H&S, and Slugfest coated bullets with Promo (#8) on that burn rate list, and no leading issues.
Burn rate is not the issue but ignition temps. I do not know what the exact temp is on ignition, but I have seen long fast strings fired with TG & you can not touch the slid or bbl & not get a burn. I have not seen this happen with other powders. Plus the huge smoke plume I have seen with conventional bullet lubes & TG, like black powder. My theory is the high heat is melting the lube to smoke point. Other fast powders like PRomo, RD, WST, etc do not exhibit this.
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