.38Spl - reversing 147gr. bullets and using as wadcutters?

Gryff

Gryff

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I have a quantity of Black Bullet 147gr. 9mm truncated cone bullets that are out of spec. They measure .358 in diameter, so they have been causing feeding/extraction issues in the 9mm semi-auto that for which they were intended.

What are the thoughts of reversing them and using them as 147gr. wadcutters for .38 Special? The intent would be to re-purpose what are currently useless bullets into .38 rounds that can be used for casual, low-power range shooting.

My current .38Spl load is 3.5gr of HP38 under 160gr. coated lead bullets (a low-recoil competition load for IDPA). When I use the setup as it stands, my press seats the reversed 147gr. bullets to a OAL of 1.156 with 0.0167" of the flat end (original base before reversing) of the bullet above the top of the case mouth (see pic). The Hodgdon's website for HP38/148gr LHBWC bullets lists an OAL of 1.16 which confuses me because I always see wadcutters loaded flush with the mouth of the case (so it should be a 1.15 OAL), but nonetheless is pretty close to the specified length.

So the question...given that I am at the low end of the Hodgdon recommended load for a 148gr. wadcutter (3.5g grains start - 4.0 grains max), is this experiment a dangerous idea for any reason?

The only issue that crosses my mind is the different shape inside the case of the reversed truncated cone bullet (instead of being a cylinder-shape like a wadcutter). But I would think that any issues would manifest more as an accuracy issue rather than an over-pressure concern.

So, looking for input from people who have played with uncommon revolver loadings.

147wadcutter.jpg
 
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Instead why not buy a Lee .356 diameter bullet sizer for your press, re-size to .356 and shoot them in your 9mm that they were intended for?

This is what happens with bullet casting companies that coat bullets and don't size them after coating! What you have found is not at all unusual!
 
Alk8944 said:
Instead why not buy a Lee .356 diameter bullet sizer for your press, re-size to .356 and shoot them in your 9mm that they were intended for?

This is what happens with bullet casting companies that coat bullets and don't size them after coating! What you have found is not at all unusual!
Click to expand...

Trying to avoid buying something additional, or changing the existing setup. Since my 9mm loads are for competition, I'm not interested in making the wrong thing work. Since I shoot a lot of .38 for fun (as well as competition), I'm hoping that I can use the bullets.
 
With the truncated cone nose of the bullet inside the case, I would worry about gas cutting in the barrel - that would divert propelling gasses to the edges of the bullet rather than the base. It would lessen obturation (expansion of the bullet to seal the gas pressure) and focus the hot gasses to the edges of the bullet. Over time, the rifling erosion could be significant and affect accuracy.

John
 
Second the above observation / comment. Load them right and shoot them. A hole in the paper is a hole in the paper.

Trying to make wadcutter rounds out of bullets by turning them around has been a topic of conversation for years. You will have a bullet that does not have the aerodynamics of a wadcutter nor will you have the accuracy of a wadcutter.
 
I came across a handful of 130gr FMJ FP intended for 38 super that mic's at .356". After consulting my Hornady 9th edition manual and comparing both 125gr & 140gr Hornady XTP's (which closely matched the bullet profile & weight) I loaded them with 6.0gr Power Pistol (in the middle range) and set the COL at 1.450". Seat the bullets normally.

I shot them thru my 4" 686 and they shot very well actually. Not match grade but accurate enough to hit a 12" steel plate at 50 yards. So with these bullets you have I would suggest trying 4-5 rounds first at COL of 1.450" and start off with 5.5gr Power pistol.
If using Hodgdens, I like Titegroup. Start off with 2.7gr but no more than 3.1 max. Again, a COL of 1.450" and that is with the bullet seated normally; pointy part going downrange first.
 
The truncated cone base will not be conductive to revolver accuracy.
But ...you say boat tail rifle bullets work....yes they do , shot out of a rifle there is no cylinder and barrel gap and forcing cone to traverse.
I've tried the reversed TC and even SWC for a full wadcutter load and it's nothing to write home about....unstable flight is the result.

A much better option is to load the TC bullets into 38/357 cases like they should be. I size my cast TC bullets .357 or .358 (doesn't seem to matter), use the 9 mm Luger taper crimp die to apply a taper crimp and shoot them out of my revolvers. Surprisingly accurate with the TC pointed normally...it will work much better than backwards .
Gary
 
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CCantu357 said:
Would it be possible to load them right side up as a 147 grain .38 Special - like the old Federal Hydra-Shok load?
Click to expand...

Haven't tried it, but not sure what depth they'll load to with my setup for 160gr LRN.


PALADIN85020 said:
With the truncated cone nose of the bullet inside the case, I would worry about gas cutting in the barrel - that would divert propelling gasses to the edges of the bullet rather than the base. It would lessen obturation (expansion of the bullet to seal the gas pressure) and focus the hot gasses to the edges of the bullet. Over time, the rifling erosion could be significant and affect accuracy.
Click to expand...

I could see that. But note that I am only talking about approximately 500 bullets, so it would not be a long-term activity, nor confined to a single gun. But this issue would make me concerned about firing them in my pre-14 K-38.


mikld said:
What's wrong with just loading them pointy end out, in your 38 Special? Don't want to adjust your dies?
Click to expand...

Bingo. I have my current setup dialed in for competition loads, and really don't want to futz with it just to load up a few hundred rounds of play ammo, and then futz with it again to get it back to where it needs to be for my competition ammo.

I'll experiment a little with loading them in the correct orientation. I did load and test fire three with the bullets reversed. Accuracy was fine, and there was no over-pressure indications at the case mouth or flattened primers. But it can't hurt to see what my setup does when putting them in the right way.

Thanks for all the input.
 
Bingo. I have my current setup dialed in for competition loads, and really don't want to futz with it just to load up a few hundred rounds of play ammo, and then futz with it again to get it back to where it needs to be for my competition ammo.
Click to expand...
You have a 38 Special crimp die set up? You could seat the bullets by hand, there's just a few, and crimp with your crimp die. Won't disturb your set up...
 
I never let die adjustment stop me from trying different bullets and loads, lot's of people will bad mouth a single stage press but this is exactly where they shine .
I have two bench mounted single stage presses , two Lee hand presses for mobility and one Lyman A-A Turret that mostly loads 357 magnum.
The single stage isn't dead yet to us who load lots of different things.
Believe it or not most of my handgun reloading happens with the Lee Hand Press , They are very ...handy !
Gary
 
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I use a single stage Hornady Lock N load classic. I love the convenience of using the locking sleeves to quickly change dies/calibers without making any readjustments.

It is a matter of my humble opinion that with a single stage press one can reload a overall better quality cartridge by weeding out any cracked cases, overcharged cases, bullet deformities etc that may have been overlooked during the reloading process over a progressive press that mass produces a higher volume of rounds.
 
No free lunch. Resize and shoot like intended, melt and re-make, give away, throw away - but, you will always remember screwing up your gun long after the bullets are disposed of.... I HAD a 5" model 10 that I tried some reloading shortcuts on many years ago. I bulged the barrel and blew the top of the cylinder off with 2.7 gr of Bullseye...
 
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PALADIN85020 said:
With the truncated cone nose of the bullet inside the case, I would worry about gas cutting in the barrel - that would divert propelling gasses to the edges of the bullet rather than the base. It would lessen obturation (expansion of the bullet to seal the gas pressure) and focus the hot gasses to the edges of the bullet. Over time, the rifling erosion could be significant and affect accuracy.

John
Click to expand...

I suppose it then follows that every boat-tailed bullet design will cause excessive gas cutting in the barrel and rifling erosion.
 
I think it would work, I have heard of this experiment before. Myconcern would be with that much of the bullet base sticking out of the front of the case, they might not chamber in your pistol. Try a dummy rond or two and see if it will even fit.
 
I'm reminded of a series of articles that Al Miller wrote for Handloader Magazine back in 1971. The general topic of the series was 38 Special handloading practices for bullseye competition.
As an example of the worst he'd ever seen he related an example of a guy who backwards loaded some SWCs when he discovered he'd run out of wadcutters, right before a match. Al described, with no small amount of humor, how the guy's targets were just full of keyholes randomly splattered throughout the target.
Needless to say, the fellow lost the match...

Maybe some folks don't care, and are happy with "minute of trashcan" accuracy at 7 yards.

Just sounds like a waste of time, powder, and primers to me.
Why not just give them away?
 
I have been using 147 9mm TC bullets ( in my .38 Specials) in SASS for years....In the lever gun they feed like butter!!

Several have asked me about that at the loading table....many have since tried it and found that they feed just as I told them (and showed them). The Truncated cone feeds into the rifle breech SO nice!

Randy
 
As I earlier stated, I have tried reversed loading of 158 grain SWCs. They do work, and I didn't get any keyholing. But they didn't group as well at 25 yards as regular wadcutters.

"Al described, with no small amount of humor, how the guy's targets were just full of keyholes randomly splattered throughout the target. Needless to say, the fellow lost the match..."

I have to whistle a giant BS on that tale. I guess that guy is supposed to be a gun writer. Most of them are experts at making things up.
 
gwpercle said:
I never let die adjustment stop me from trying different bullets and loads, lot's of people will bad mouth a single stage press but this is exactly where they shine .
I have two bench mounted single stage presses , two Lee hand presses for mobility and one Lyman A-A Turret that mostly loads 357 magnum.
The single stage isn't dead yet to us who load lots of different things.
Believe it or not most of my handgun reloading happens with the Lee Hand Press , They are very ...handy !
Gary
Click to expand...


But that die adjustment is soooo much trouble. :D


Gryff
"Bingo. I have my current setup dialed in for competition loads, and really don't want to futz with it just to load up a few hundred rounds of play ammo, and then futz with it again to get it back to where it needs to be for my competition ammo."

The amount of time and effort to post this thread and take a picture, the OP could not turn the seating die knob a bit??:confused:
 
DWalt said:
I have reversed 158 grain SWC bullets for use as wadcutters. It works OK, but regular wadcutters are a little better. Best idea is to load up some and see how they perform for you. Or load them unreversed.
Click to expand...

Do you use regular158 data and C.OL., just with thr bullet backwards?
 
Late to the game here, but I've done exactly this with Berry's Plated 9mm 147 grain RNs @ .356 with 4.0 grains Unique out of the 686. No keyholing or leading/fouling. It did make pretty almost WC-like holes in the target. The loading was really soft and rather under pressure, I had blackened case mouth exteriors (not enough expansion) and they shot smokey; Unique doesn't seem to like low pressure so much. The neck tension was lacking and some of them I had to pull as the projectiles quite literally fell to the bottom of the case with some headstamps. Basically, not a recipe for consistent velocity. Your .358 bullets should give decent results.

I shot about 200 of these, my forcing cone is still razor sharp. I would expect that at the 1000s of PSI cartridges launch at, high velocity gases will go anywhere they can and the shape of the rear of the bullet isn't of much consequence in the grand scheme.

No bench/rest shooting. Unsupported at 10 yards. I'm not a great revolver shot. They shot good enough for minute of pie plate accuracy.

They do look cool though!

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ken158 said:
No free lunch. Resize and shoot like intended, melt and re-make, give away, throw away - but, you will always remember screwing up your gun long after the bullets are disposed of.... I HAD a 5" model 10 that I tried some reloading shortcuts on many years ago. I bulged the barrel and blew the top of the cylinder off with 2.7 gr of Bullseye...
Click to expand...

How do you know it WAS 2.7 grains of Bullseye?

I'm saying it WASN'T. :)
 
(1) Adjusting dies is not hard.

(2) Pie plates at 10 yards prove that the bullet made it out of the barrel. Nothing more.

(3) Using inaccurate ammunition only reinforces bad shooting.
 
Wise_A said:
(1) Adjusting dies is not hard.

(2) Pie plates at 10 yards prove that the bullet made it out of the barrel. Nothing more.

(3) Using inaccurate ammunition only reinforces bad shooting.
Click to expand...

Pie plates without keyholes does at least show you're getting some spin stabilization and defensive level of accuracy. For me, they shot about what I can do with factory 38s.

I don't think there's any evidence of inaccuracy of reloading reverse projectiles, in and of itself, due to the cartridge in the OP or my case.
 
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