Smith & Wesson Forum

Go Back   Smith & Wesson Forum > >


Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old 05-04-2018, 02:17 PM
Buford57 Buford57 is offline
Member
Plated bullets - which data? Plated bullets - which data?  
Join Date: Feb 2006
Posts: 1,787
Likes: 71
Liked 1,558 Times in 600 Posts
Default Plated bullets - which data?

I came into some Berry's 130 gr. .356 plated bullets recently and want to load them for my .38 Super. I've never used plated before. I would THINK that jacketed rather than cast data should be used for them, but what is the experience of those who use these?
__________________
Who are you guys?
Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old 05-04-2018, 02:24 PM
BlackTalonJHP's Avatar
BlackTalonJHP BlackTalonJHP is offline
Member
Plated bullets - which data? Plated bullets - which data? Plated bullets - which data? Plated bullets - which data? Plated bullets - which data?  
Join Date: May 2012
Location: Texas
Posts: 809
Likes: 218
Liked 464 Times in 234 Posts
Default

A lot of people will say to start with cast data, but I usually start somewhere between cast and FMJ. I wouldn't start with FMJ to err on the side of caution.
Reply With Quote
The Following User Likes This Post:
  #3  
Old 05-04-2018, 02:26 PM
colt_saa's Avatar
colt_saa colt_saa is offline
SWCA Member
Plated bullets - which data? Plated bullets - which data? Plated bullets - which data? Plated bullets - which data? Plated bullets - which data?  
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Cocoa Beach, Florida
Posts: 6,716
Likes: 492
Liked 9,357 Times in 2,838 Posts
Default

Start with cast data and work up.

Stop if your velocity is expected to reach 1200FPS
Reply With Quote
The Following 2 Users Like Post:
  #4  
Old 05-04-2018, 02:35 PM
Wee Hooker Wee Hooker is offline
Member
Plated bullets - which data? Plated bullets - which data? Plated bullets - which data? Plated bullets - which data? Plated bullets - which data?  
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: New England, USA
Posts: 4,064
Likes: 2,486
Liked 3,586 Times in 1,353 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by colt_saa View Post
Start with cast data and work up.

Stop if your velocity is expected to reach 1200FPS
What he said. I usually add 1 or 2 tenths of a grain to lead data with any plated handgun bullet and work from there. Starting too high can be catastrophic to you and/or the gun. Starting in a safe zone only gives you better data points.

p.s. I load those same bullets in 38 super and 9mm. They are one of my favorites.
__________________
Dave
Reply With Quote
The Following 3 Users Like Post:
  #5  
Old 05-04-2018, 04:27 PM
WR Moore WR Moore is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Posts: 3,514
Likes: 136
Liked 1,562 Times in 886 Posts
Default

You'll find the plated bullet to be somewhat more slippery (OK, it doesn't take as much force to engrave the rifling and drive the bullet down the barrel) than jacketed and requires less powder to reach the same velocities. Exactly how much less depends upon what powder you're using.

Starting with middle of the load range lead bullet data is a good starting place.
Reply With Quote
The Following 2 Users Like Post:
  #6  
Old 05-04-2018, 05:46 PM
bigedp51 bigedp51 is offline
Member
Plated bullets - which data? Plated bullets - which data? Plated bullets - which data? Plated bullets - which data? Plated bullets - which data?  
Join Date: Jul 2011
Posts: 280
Likes: 5
Liked 216 Times in 120 Posts
Default

1. Always remember Google is your best friend when looking for information.
2. When all else fails read the manufactures information.

Description

Berry's Superior Plated Bullets are swaged and plated to final weight and

re-struck for accuracy and precision. They are more affordable than jacketed rounds

and won't foul your barrel with lead.

SAAMI MAX COL = 1.280"
Can withstand velocities up to 1250 fps.

Question: Taper or Roll Crimp?

You can use both the Taper and Roll Crimp on Berry's Bullets.

We recommend a light crimp on the bullet, just enough to put pressure against the bullet without denting or deforming the plating. If you were to pull the bullet out of a case with the proper crimp you would find no more than a scratch on the surface of the plating. If you are denting or deforming the bullet, your accuracy will suffer and the bullet may start to tumble before it hits the target.

Question: How fast can I shoot these bullets?

We guarantee our Standard Pistol Bullets to handle velocities up to 1,250 fps, and up to 1,500 fps for the bullets designated as TP (thick plate).

Our 30-30 bullets can handle velocities up to 1,950 fps.

Our 45-70 bullets can handle velocities up to 1,700 fps.

Our 7.62x39 bullets can handle velocities up to 1,900 fps.

Our 30 Carbine bullets can handle velocities up to 1,750 fps.

Our 500 S&W bullets can handle velocities up to 2,000 fps.

Berryís cannot guarantee our bullet over the max velocity. You are running the risk of separating the plating from the lead core and possibly fouling your barrel with copper, you can also negatively affect accuracy.
Reply With Quote
The Following 2 Users Like Post:
  #7  
Old 05-05-2018, 12:46 AM
Nevada Ed's Avatar
Nevada Ed Nevada Ed is offline
Member
Plated bullets - which data? Plated bullets - which data? Plated bullets - which data? Plated bullets - which data? Plated bullets - which data?  
Join Date: Nov 2012
Location: Reno Nv
Posts: 6,946
Likes: 269
Liked 4,018 Times in 2,087 Posts
Default

In a 5" 9mm I got the Berry 115gr plated up to 1350fps. (+P)

Best high end accuracy was at 1257fps that is near a NATO spec.
My minimum fps full loads came in at 1198 and 1218.

So care with the 38 Super loads is needed, do to higher fps that it can put out.

Most powders with the 124gr bullet are safe in the 9mm but I did
get this heavier bullet up to 1257 and 1267 with two slow powders, so use care.

Accuracy came at 993 up to 1155fps in my 9mm with the 124 with
a oal of 1.14".

For some odd reason my 5" does not like plated bullets with short OAL.
A 115 ball at 1.10 and a 124gr ball at 1.09" did not do any better than a 1.14" OAL in my test.
Your 38 Super might be different in its OAL that it likes as well as
the speed of target up to medium heavy loads.

Safe shooting.
Reply With Quote
The Following User Likes This Post:
  #8  
Old 05-05-2018, 01:19 AM
Benchrest1 Benchrest1 is offline
Member
Plated bullets - which data? Plated bullets - which data? Plated bullets - which data? Plated bullets - which data? Plated bullets - which data?  
Join Date: Jun 2017
Location: SoCal
Posts: 193
Likes: 266
Liked 195 Times in 101 Posts
Default

I use cast lead bullet data, and would start low and work my way up.
Reply With Quote
The Following User Likes This Post:
  #9  
Old 05-05-2018, 06:04 AM
kbm6893 kbm6893 is online now
Member
Plated bullets - which data?  
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Pennsylvania
Posts: 4,063
Likes: 162
Liked 2,526 Times in 1,083 Posts
Default

I recently switched from 158 grain LSWC lead bullets to Xtreme Bullets 158 grain plated LSWC. I have been told to use the lead data, but bump it a bit. I used to load 3.4 grains of HP38 with the lead bullets. I now load 3.6 with the plated. Max load is 3.8, so Iím still below max. I donít have a chronograph but Iím just punching paper and the 18 I have shot (Iím still using up the lead ones) have been good enough for me.
Reply With Quote
  #10  
Old 05-05-2018, 07:15 AM
stansdds stansdds is offline
Member
Plated bullets - which data? Plated bullets - which data? Plated bullets - which data? Plated bullets - which data? Plated bullets - which data?  
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Virginia
Posts: 678
Likes: 66
Liked 587 Times in 343 Posts
Default

Plated bullets do fall between cast lead and jacketed. I have always used data for cast lead, but you may find it will take one or two tenths of a grain more powder than the cast lead data to achieve the same velocity as cast lead. As for crimp, although some have had success with roll crimping, taper crimping seems to be the least likely to damage the plating.
Reply With Quote
  #11  
Old 05-05-2018, 07:49 AM
Eddietruett Eddietruett is offline
Member
Plated bullets - which data? Plated bullets - which data? Plated bullets - which data? Plated bullets - which data? Plated bullets - which data?  
Join Date: Dec 2016
Location: South Carolina
Posts: 679
Likes: 323
Liked 1,160 Times in 363 Posts
Default

My only recommendation is donít load plated too light! I was shooting some Berryís 158gr with only 3gr Bullseye and worked ok but tried XTreme with same low powder load and had several ďstickĒ near the muzzle on 6 and 8Ē barrels. The both micíd the same diameter so I guess itís the difference in plating? Didnít have any load data when starting with plating so I started off too low. Now I use jacketed load data and have no problem but I found in my guns the Berryís 158gr THP to be the most accurate at mid range velocity. Pushed by 5gr Universal it is as accurate as any bullet ive tried.
Reply With Quote
The Following 3 Users Like Post:
  #12  
Old 05-05-2018, 10:02 AM
P.W.Herman P.W.Herman is offline
Member
Plated bullets - which data? Plated bullets - which data? Plated bullets - which data? Plated bullets - which data? Plated bullets - which data?  
Join Date: Mar 2018
Location: Iowa
Posts: 85
Likes: 82
Liked 127 Times in 46 Posts
Default

I use rainier plated bullets in .45 colt . Their website states specifically you use jacketed bullet recipes, starting in the mid range. My bullets fell out when I first started using them on the first shot. Had to go from what I thought was a fairly tight roll crimp to a Lee factory crimp. The factory crimp cured my problem.
Reply With Quote
The Following User Likes This Post:
  #13  
Old 05-05-2018, 10:22 AM
Rule3's Avatar
Rule3 Rule3 is offline
Member
Plated bullets - which data? Plated bullets - which data? Plated bullets - which data? Plated bullets - which data? Plated bullets - which data?  
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Florida, NRA CERT RSO
Posts: 19,384
Likes: 8,289
Liked 10,941 Times in 5,082 Posts
Thumbs up

Quote:
Originally Posted by bigedp51 View Post
1. Always remember Google is your best friend when looking for information.
2. When all else fails read the manufactures information.

Description

Berry's Superior Plated Bullets are swaged and plated to final weight and

re-struck for accuracy and precision. They are more affordable than jacketed rounds

and won't foul your barrel with lead.

SAAMI MAX COL = 1.280"
Can withstand velocities up to 1250 fps.

Question: Taper or Roll Crimp?

You can use both the Taper and Roll Crimp on Berry's Bullets.

We recommend a light crimp on the bullet, just enough to put pressure against the bullet without denting or deforming the plating. If you were to pull the bullet out of a case with the proper crimp you would find no more than a scratch on the surface of the plating. If you are denting or deforming the bullet, your accuracy will suffer and the bullet may start to tumble before it hits the target.

Question: How fast can I shoot these bullets?

We guarantee our Standard Pistol Bullets to handle velocities up to 1,250 fps, and up to 1,500 fps for the bullets designated as TP (thick plate).

Our 30-30 bullets can handle velocities up to 1,950 fps.

Our 45-70 bullets can handle velocities up to 1,700 fps.

Our 7.62x39 bullets can handle velocities up to 1,900 fps.

Our 30 Carbine bullets can handle velocities up to 1,750 fps.

Our 500 S&W bullets can handle velocities up to 2,000 fps.

Berryís cannot guarantee our bullet over the max velocity. You are running the risk of separating the plating from the lead core and possibly fouling your barrel with copper, you can also negatively affect accuracy.

Thank goodness there is at least one other person that can use a computer and actually read!

Just to add, not ALL plated bullets are the same. Some brands are darn near FMJ. Some are thinner.

Regardless plated bullets are NOT as fragile as some think, even in a 38 super at max charges you will probably not exceed the stated max velocity.
__________________
"Turn the Page"
Reply With Quote
  #14  
Old 05-05-2018, 10:35 AM
lrrifleman's Avatar
lrrifleman lrrifleman is online now
Member
Plated bullets - which data? Plated bullets - which data? Plated bullets - which data? Plated bullets - which data? Plated bullets - which data?  
Join Date: Oct 2015
Location: Southern NJ
Posts: 3,071
Likes: 4,929
Liked 1,789 Times in 936 Posts
Default

Because of the CMP requirement for jacketed or plated bullets, I have ordered a supply of Speer TMJ bullets for their 45 matches. The Speer TMJ bullets are supposed to have a thicker layer of plating than most other plated bullets. Additionally, Speer has recommended reloading data for their TMJ bullets.
__________________
Judge control not gun control!
Reply With Quote
  #15  
Old 05-05-2018, 11:05 AM
dr. mordo's Avatar
dr. mordo dr. mordo is online now
Member
Plated bullets - which data? Plated bullets - which data? Plated bullets - which data? Plated bullets - which data? Plated bullets - which data?  
Join Date: Jul 2017
Location: Miami, FL
Posts: 811
Likes: 1,879
Liked 1,175 Times in 439 Posts
Default

I've shot a couple thousand plated bullets in my 38 SPL, and always used jacketed load data, some of which was loaded pretty hot. Never had a problem of any kind. I used jacket data because I had seen several posts where folks got plated bullets stuck using cast data, especially with the Berry DEWCs.
Reply With Quote
The Following 3 Users Like Post:
  #16  
Old 05-05-2018, 11:32 AM
Stopsign32v Stopsign32v is offline
Member
Plated bullets - which data? Plated bullets - which data? Plated bullets - which data? Plated bullets - which data? Plated bullets - which data?  
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 809
Likes: 131
Liked 793 Times in 248 Posts
Default

Use jacketed bullet load data. Do searches this question has been asked time and time again. People that don't know better will say use cast load data. People that have done it will tell you jacketed load data is just fine.
Reply With Quote
The Following User Likes This Post:
  #17  
Old 05-05-2018, 01:06 PM
TomkinsSP's Avatar
TomkinsSP TomkinsSP is online now
Member
Plated bullets - which data? Plated bullets - which data? Plated bullets - which data? Plated bullets - which data? Plated bullets - which data?  
Join Date: May 2017
Location: E of America's Great Lake
Posts: 2,371
Likes: 1,246
Liked 3,570 Times in 1,381 Posts
Default

My $0.02: As a MINIMUM load use jacketeted data. Plated bullets have more resistance than lead. (The only squibs I have created in load development were mimimum power PHBWC and PFBWC using cast lead data.) Plated, especially the thick plating can handle more fps than cast, but the plating WILL shed and remain in your grooves at higher fps, so you won't be able to get high end jacketed performance out of plated bullets.
__________________
Certified Curmudgeon
Reply With Quote
The Following User Likes This Post:
  #18  
Old 05-05-2018, 03:52 PM
iouri iouri is online now
Member
Plated bullets - which data? Plated bullets - which data? Plated bullets - which data? Plated bullets - which data? Plated bullets - which data?  
Join Date: Dec 2011
Posts: 869
Likes: 260
Liked 428 Times in 231 Posts
Default

I've used jacketed data in a number of cartridges I load with no ill effects. With 500SW I went all the way to max (data from powder mfr), which was still way below stated max for the bullet (Berry's says it's 2000fps).
Reply With Quote
  #19  
Old 05-05-2018, 04:37 PM
Twoboxer's Avatar
Twoboxer Twoboxer is online now
Member
Plated bullets - which data? Plated bullets - which data? Plated bullets - which data? Plated bullets - which data? Plated bullets - which data?  
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: Eastern Pennsylvania
Posts: 927
Likes: 273
Liked 619 Times in 340 Posts
Default

Jacketed data, with max load being book max or the charge at which the bullet's max velocity can be reached, whichever is lower.

Note that differences in your COL and barrel length from those used in the book test results must, as always, affect your interpretation of that data.
Reply With Quote
  #20  
Old 05-05-2018, 04:55 PM
Buford57 Buford57 is offline
Member
Plated bullets - which data? Plated bullets - which data?  
Join Date: Feb 2006
Posts: 1,787
Likes: 71
Liked 1,558 Times in 600 Posts
Default

Thanks to all. So far I hear start with lead data and work up, start with jacketed data or risk stuck bullets, start in the middle.

Also a very enlightening introduction to search engines and the cut and paste feature.

Since the Lee manual includes data specific to plated bullets I think I can get started.
__________________
Who are you guys?
Reply With Quote
  #21  
Old 05-05-2018, 08:00 PM
Rule3's Avatar
Rule3 Rule3 is offline
Member
Plated bullets - which data? Plated bullets - which data? Plated bullets - which data? Plated bullets - which data? Plated bullets - which data?  
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Florida, NRA CERT RSO
Posts: 19,384
Likes: 8,289
Liked 10,941 Times in 5,082 Posts
Exclamation

Quote:
Originally Posted by Buford57 View Post
Thanks to all. So far I hear start with lead data and work up, start with jacketed data or risk stuck bullets, start in the middle.

Also a very enlightening introduction to search engines and the cut and paste feature.

Since the Lee manual includes data specific to plated bullets I think I can get started.

Maybe this may simplify the answer. Direct from Berrys.

Bad Request

Question: Do you have load data available? COL or OAL? Please consult load data books or your powder manufacturers' website for load information. You can use any published data as long as it is the same weight (FMJ, Lead, Plated, etc.)
-Standard Plate Bullets max velocity- 1,250 fps.
-Thick Plate Bullets (TP) max velocity- 1,500 fps.
For SAAMI MAX COL specs or OAL of the bullet please click HERE.
We recommend a light crimp on the bullet, just enough to put pressure against the bullet without denting or deforming the plating. If you were to pull the bullet out of a case with the proper crimp you would find no more than a scratch on the surface of the plating. If you are denting or deforming the bullet, your accuracy will suffer and the bullet may start to tumble before it hits the target.
Here are websites with load data information,
Page not found – Hodgdon
Page not found << Accurate Powders
Alliant Powder - Reloader's Guide
__________________
"Turn the Page"
Reply With Quote
  #22  
Old 05-05-2018, 08:58 PM
TomkinsSP's Avatar
TomkinsSP TomkinsSP is online now
Member
Plated bullets - which data? Plated bullets - which data? Plated bullets - which data? Plated bullets - which data? Plated bullets - which data?  
Join Date: May 2017
Location: E of America's Great Lake
Posts: 2,371
Likes: 1,246
Liked 3,570 Times in 1,381 Posts
Default

COL or OAL may be significant for feeding a semi or fitting cartridges into a cylinder. But it is irrelevant for loading the cartridge. The Useable Volume under the bullet is important, but different bullets of different shapes and different lead alloys and different jacket design/thickness and different plating thicknesses will have different Useable Volumes at the same bullet weights and OALs. The way to know for sure is to measure them.
__________________
Certified Curmudgeon
Reply With Quote
  #23  
Old 05-06-2018, 02:56 AM
Twoboxer's Avatar
Twoboxer Twoboxer is online now
Member
Plated bullets - which data? Plated bullets - which data? Plated bullets - which data? Plated bullets - which data? Plated bullets - which data?  
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: Eastern Pennsylvania
Posts: 927
Likes: 273
Liked 619 Times in 340 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by TomkinsSP View Post
COL or OAL may be significant for feeding a semi or fitting cartridges into a cylinder. But it is irrelevant for loading the cartridge. The Useable Volume under the bullet is important, but different bullets of different shapes and different lead alloys and different jacket design/thickness and different plating thicknesses will have different Useable Volumes at the same bullet weights and OALs. The way to know for sure is to measure them.
Yes, you can only use COL as a surrogate for residual case volume when the bullets are the same length and perhaps base profile.

Fortunately, a Speer 115gr GDHP @ factory spec is 0.560". That's a good enough match for Berrys (.556-.564) which was the OP's specific question, as well as Xtreme (0.553-0.557) and Precision Delta (.560-.564). According to Quickload, other brand name FMJ bullets are in that same ballpark too.

I suspect that's why Hodgdon can continue to list only the GDHP as the example of a copper surfaced bullet.

(I've never seen a 115gr LRN, but Hodgdon's 1.100" test COL has always made me curious. Anyone know the length of a typical LRN? Unless they are really short, that may help explain the lower powder charge range.)
Reply With Quote
  #24  
Old 05-06-2018, 06:32 AM
kbm6893 kbm6893 is online now
Member
Plated bullets - which data?  
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Pennsylvania
Posts: 4,063
Likes: 162
Liked 2,526 Times in 1,083 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Twoboxer View Post
Yes, you can only use COL as a surrogate for residual case volume when the bullets are the same length and perhaps base profile.

Fortunately, a Speer 115gr GDHP @ factory spec is 0.560". That's a good enough match for Berrys (.556-.564) which was the OP's specific question, as well as Xtreme (0.553-0.557) and Precision Delta (.560-.564). According to Quickload, other brand name FMJ bullets are in that same ballpark too.

I suspect that's why Hodgdon can continue to list only the GDHP as the example of a copper surfaced bullet.

(I've never seen a 115gr LRN, but Hodgdon's 1.100" test COL has always made me curious. Anyone know the length of a typical LRN? Unless they are really short, that may help explain the lower powder charge range.)
Stupid question, but where do you see both cast and jacketed data for
Same bullet listed together? I have a few manuals but generally use the data from the Hodgson website. For a 158 grain bullet and HP38, they only lost two bullets. A Hornady xtp and a cast LSWC. The Hornady has a range of 3.8 to 4.3. The cast is 3.1 to 3.8. I load my 158 grain swc plated xtreme bullet at 3.6 grains. Too light?

Last edited by kbm6893; 05-06-2018 at 06:46 AM.
Reply With Quote
  #25  
Old 05-06-2018, 08:14 AM
Rule3's Avatar
Rule3 Rule3 is offline
Member
Plated bullets - which data? Plated bullets - which data? Plated bullets - which data? Plated bullets - which data? Plated bullets - which data?  
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Florida, NRA CERT RSO
Posts: 19,384
Likes: 8,289
Liked 10,941 Times in 5,082 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by kbm6893 View Post
Stupid question, but where do you see both cast and jacketed data for
Same bullet listed together? I have a few manuals but generally use the data from the Hodgson website. For a 158 grain bullet and HP38, they only lost two bullets. A Hornady xtp and a cast LSWC. The Hornady has a range of 3.8 to 4.3. The cast is 3.1 to 3.8. I load my 158 grain swc plated xtreme bullet at 3.6 grains. Too light?
There is a difference in the friction or "tension" of a jacketed bullet compared to a lead bullet

Jacketed are usually high loads to get them "moving" out of the case.

How much difference between jacketed and plated? I really don't know. I pretty much treat them the same but do not use Berrys. Some other makes are thicker plating.

Technically a Speer Gold Dot is a "plated" bullet.
__________________
"Turn the Page"
Reply With Quote
  #26  
Old 05-06-2018, 10:02 AM
Carrier Carrier is offline
Member
Plated bullets - which data? Plated bullets - which data? Plated bullets - which data? Plated bullets - which data? Plated bullets - which data?  
Join Date: Jul 2014
Posts: 286
Likes: 38
Liked 127 Times in 73 Posts
Default

Campro data lists the same as jacket data. I shoot a lot of them from light to full magnum and no issues.

Bullet manufacturer - premium-caliber bullets polished and inspected by hand - Qu'ebec - CamPro
Reply With Quote
The Following 3 Users Like Post:
  #27  
Old 05-06-2018, 01:20 PM
Rule3's Avatar
Rule3 Rule3 is offline
Member
Plated bullets - which data? Plated bullets - which data? Plated bullets - which data? Plated bullets - which data? Plated bullets - which data?  
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Florida, NRA CERT RSO
Posts: 19,384
Likes: 8,289
Liked 10,941 Times in 5,082 Posts
Thumbs up

Quote:
Originally Posted by Carrier View Post
Campro data lists the same as jacket data. I shoot a lot of them from light to full magnum and no issues.

Bullet manufacturer - premium-caliber bullets polished and inspected by hand - Qu'ebec - CamPro
Nice web site. Pretty cool that they give load data!
__________________
"Turn the Page"
Reply With Quote
  #28  
Old 05-06-2018, 02:05 PM
kbm6893 kbm6893 is online now
Member
Plated bullets - which data?  
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Pennsylvania
Posts: 4,063
Likes: 162
Liked 2,526 Times in 1,083 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rule3 View Post
There is a difference in the friction or "tension" of a jacketed bullet compared to a lead bullet

Jacketed are usually high loads to get them "moving" out of the case.

How much difference between jacketed and plated? I really don't know. I pretty much treat them the same but do not use Berrys. Some other makes are thicker plating.

Technically a Speer Gold Dot is a "plated" bullet.
Thanks. So 3.6 grains is too light? When the jacketed recipe calls for starting load of 3.8 for the Hornady bullet, which is not a SWC?

I loaded up 18 at 3.6 and shot them. No problems. I loaded another 200 more that I haven’t shot yet. Don’t want to break them down. Should I bump the weight up for the Xtreme plated bullet? I haven’t see. A recipe for a 158 grain plated bullet using HP38.

Last edited by kbm6893; 05-06-2018 at 02:07 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #29  
Old 05-06-2018, 02:10 PM
Alk8944's Avatar
Alk8944 Alk8944 is offline
Member
Plated bullets - which data? Plated bullets - which data? Plated bullets - which data? Plated bullets - which data? Plated bullets - which data?  
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Sandy Utah
Posts: 6,386
Likes: 699
Liked 4,015 Times in 1,874 Posts
Default

This question about lead or jacketed loading data for plated bullets is a complete joke! If anyone would compare the two, same bullet weight and powder, you will see that rarely is there a significant difference in charge weight between jacketed and lead. Hasn't anyone else noticed this, or does everyone just parrot what has been read on the internet? What is even stupider is manufacturers of plated bullets publish the same baloney. I guess no one selling plated bullets is a shooter!

As a matter of fact, it is not unusual, when pressure is the criteria, that the lead bullet data is .1-.2 gr. heavier than jacketed data!
__________________
Gunsmithing S&W since 1961
Reply With Quote
The Following 2 Users Like Post:
  #30  
Old 05-06-2018, 05:18 PM
Rule3's Avatar
Rule3 Rule3 is offline
Member
Plated bullets - which data? Plated bullets - which data? Plated bullets - which data? Plated bullets - which data? Plated bullets - which data?  
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Florida, NRA CERT RSO
Posts: 19,384
Likes: 8,289
Liked 10,941 Times in 5,082 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by kbm6893 View Post
Thanks. So 3.6 grains is too light? When the jacketed recipe calls for starting load of 3.8 for the Hornady bullet, which is not a SWC?

I loaded up 18 at 3.6 and shot them. No problems. I loaded another 200 more that I havenít shot yet. Donít want to break them down. Should I bump the weight up for the Xtreme plated bullet? I havenít see. A recipe for a 158 grain plated bullet using HP38.

All I am gonna say. Long ago I used some Berry Plated bullets. They were cheap and worked OK, they their prices went up to pretty much FMJ prices and to me their plating and consistency declined. I have not use their bullets for years,

I use coated lead bullets or FMJ bullets. I do have some plated bullets from RMR and they are pretty much FMJ.

For plated bullets I use regular FMJ data, I do not load at max loads anyway.
__________________
"Turn the Page"
Reply With Quote
  #31  
Old 05-06-2018, 06:32 PM
kbm6893 kbm6893 is online now
Member
Plated bullets - which data?  
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Pennsylvania
Posts: 4,063
Likes: 162
Liked 2,526 Times in 1,083 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rule3 View Post
All I am gonna say. Long ago I used some Berry Plated bullets. They were cheap and worked OK, they their prices went up to pretty much FMJ prices and to me their plating and consistency declined. I have not use their bullets for years,

I use coated lead bullets or FMJ bullets. I do have some plated bullets from RMR and they are pretty much FMJ.

For plated bullets I use regular FMJ data, I do not load at max loads anyway.
As always, thank you. But can you point me to a source of fmj 158 grain SWC ammo using HP38 or 231?
Reply With Quote
  #32  
Old 05-07-2018, 09:58 AM
Rule3's Avatar
Rule3 Rule3 is offline
Member
Plated bullets - which data? Plated bullets - which data? Plated bullets - which data? Plated bullets - which data? Plated bullets - which data?  
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Florida, NRA CERT RSO
Posts: 19,384
Likes: 8,289
Liked 10,941 Times in 5,082 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by kbm6893 View Post
As always, thank you. But can you point me to a source of fmj 158 grain SWC ammo using HP38 or 231?

If it was ME, I would just use the data for any FMJ 158 gr bullet in 38 special.

Like the Hodgdon Data for a 158 gr XTP HP

The shape of the bullet is not gonna matter even if you adjust the COL a bit. Not like the 38 special is a blistering high pressure round,
__________________
"Turn the Page"
Reply With Quote
The Following User Likes This Post:
  #33  
Old 05-07-2018, 01:05 PM
Twoboxer's Avatar
Twoboxer Twoboxer is online now
Member
Plated bullets - which data? Plated bullets - which data? Plated bullets - which data? Plated bullets - which data? Plated bullets - which data?  
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: Eastern Pennsylvania
Posts: 927
Likes: 273
Liked 619 Times in 340 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by kbm6893 View Post
As always, thank you. But can you point me to a source of fmj 158 grain SWC ammo using HP38 or 231?
Personally, I think Rule3's answer is sound and I would do the same.

The firearm industry is different than perhaps any other consumer products group. They actually expect questions, and they actually give answers. If you call Hodgdon (which you absolutely should), my bet is they'll give the same advice.
Reply With Quote
  #34  
Old 05-07-2018, 01:21 PM
BC38's Avatar
BC38 BC38 is offline
Member
Plated bullets - which data? Plated bullets - which data? Plated bullets - which data? Plated bullets - which data? Plated bullets - which data?  
Join Date: Nov 2013
Location: Spokane, WA
Posts: 6,331
Likes: 290
Liked 6,976 Times in 2,935 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rule3 View Post
If it was ME, I would just use the data for any FMJ 158 gr bullet in 38 special.

Like the Hodgdon Data for a 158 gr XTP HP

The shape of the bullet is not gonna matter even if you adjust the COL a bit. Not like the 38 special is a blistering high pressure round,
Good advice.

Just be aware that if you start loading small-case, high-pressure calibers - like 9mm - the same principle doesn't always apply. Or at least not to the same degree.

In those calibers small variations in case volume due to different COL and bullet base shapes CAN make a significant difference, because the case volumes are so small to start with and the pressures are so much higher. In that case it is much more important to match bullet type and construction and COL to the published data as closely as possible.

And always start at the low end and work up. A chronometer is your friend, because although velocity isn't an exact measure of pressures, it is generally a good indicator, Without velocity info you're flying almost completely blind.
Reply With Quote
  #35  
Old 05-07-2018, 06:25 PM
kbm6893 kbm6893 is online now
Member
Plated bullets - which data?  
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Pennsylvania
Posts: 4,063
Likes: 162
Liked 2,526 Times in 1,083 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rule3 View Post
If it was ME, I would just use the data for any FMJ 158 gr bullet in 38 special.

Like the Hodgdon Data for a 158 gr XTP HP

The shape of the bullet is not gonna matter even if you adjust the COL a bit. Not like the 38 special is a blistering high pressure round,
Thanks again, to you and everyone else. I’ll bump it up from the 3.6 I make now to the 3.8 for the Hornady XTP. That’s starting load for that bullet. Maybe go 3.9

I do love this forum. Guys here walked me through my first reloads summer of 2013, Rule3 especially.
Reply With Quote
The Following User Likes This Post:
  #36  
Old 07-08-2018, 11:22 PM
calinb calinb is offline
Junior Member
Plated bullets - which data? Plated bullets - which data? Plated bullets - which data? Plated bullets - which data? Plated bullets - which data?  
Join Date: Jun 2010
Posts: 1
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Default

I have an NOE 429421 "Keith-like" mold and I just ordered the NOE 434-234-hp mold. I also have a good inventory of X-Treme (plated) and Barnes TAC-XP bullets. They will all be fed to my S&W 29-2 (6") 44 Mag and Taurus 431 (3") 44 Special. (The Taurus cylinder has huge .434 throats, BTW.)

Accordingly, I was interested in running some loading scenarios in Quickload to determine the differences in pressure when ONLY the start shot (initiation) pressure parameter is varied, to reflect the differences in bullet material and construction. NOE supplies QL modelling data for their bullets and their start pressure is given as 725 psi. QL on the other hand suggests a start pressure of 1160 psi for lead bullets. 2175 psi is the QL recommendation for jacketed bullets and the QL Barnes TAC-XP bullet data is 2901 psi. So the recommended start pressures, from lowest to highest, are NOE/725 psi >> QL lead/1160 psi >> QL jacketed 2175 psi >> Barnes (copper) 2901 psi.

As discussed here, the X-Treme factory reps at SHOT show advised me to use a load somewhere between lead and jacketed for their plated bullets.

I noticed two interesting and definitive QL outcomes in running a variety of powders using the QL "Table Setup" feature.

#1: When the load "recipe" is held constant and only start pressure is varied to simulate different bullet materials, the P Max pressure increases significantly with start pressure. (Barnes bullets should produce the highest pressure, followed by jacketed, plated, and then lead bullets, in decreasing pressure order.)

So I concluded that the most conservative load data to use when loading plated bullets lacking any published data is to use jacketed bullet load data for a similar bullet! Using lead bullet load data for a plated bullets is actually the more "aggressive/less safe choice." (According my Quickload results.)

Look at it this way. For any given jacketed bullet max pressure load, duplicating the same load with a lead bullet instead of a jacketed bullet results in LESS-THAN-MAX pressure. A plated bullet is, allegedly, somewhere in-between.

Here are some of my 44 Mag results where only the start pressure has been changed. For each load, the start pressure varies from 725 psi to 1160 psi to 2175 psi. Though hard to see (columns don't line up), the third from the last column of numbers are the P max pressure:

Powder type Filling/Loading Ratio Charge Charge Vel. Prop.Burnt P max P muzz B_Time
% Grains Gramm fps % psi psi ms
--------------------------------- -----------------------------------------------------------------
Winchester 296 100.0 26.1 1.69 1567 74.8 29976 7078 0.672
Winchester 296 100.0 26.1 1.69 1578 75.3 31007 7100 0.664 ! Near Maximum !
Winchester 296 100.0 26.1 1.69 1598 76.2 33195 7145 0.650 ! Near Maximum !

Hodgdon Lil'Gun 100.0 25.2 1.63 1558 84.7 28181 7195 0.682
Hodgdon Lil'Gun 100.0 25.2 1.63 1570 85.2 29094 7213 0.673
Hodgdon Lil'Gun 100.0 25.2 1.63 1594 86.3 31039 7248 0.658 ! Near Maximum !

Hodgdon H110 100.0 26.0 1.69 1548 78.8 30180 6765 0.676
Hodgdon H110 100.0 26.0 1.69 1558 79.3 31199 6783 0.668 ! Near Maximum !
Hodgdon H110 100.0 26.0 1.69 1577 80.2 33346 6819 0.654 ! Near Maximum !

Accurate 5744 100.0 22.7 1.47 1444 67.7 29555 5582 0.687
Accurate 5744 100.0 22.7 1.47 1448 67.9 30111 5595 0.684
Accurate 5744 100.0 22.7 1.47 1455 68.4 31246 5626 0.679 ! Near Maximum !

Accurate 1680 100.0 26.1 1.69 1334 56.7 24832 4918 0.745
Accurate 1680 100.0 26.1 1.69 1343 57.1 25569 4942 0.738
Accurate 1680 100.0 26.1 1.69 1361 58.0 27136 4992 0.723

IMR 4227 100.0 22.2 1.44 1287 62.7 21684 4695 0.789
IMR 4227 100.0 22.2 1.44 1297 63.2 22367 4720 0.780
IMR 4227 100.0 22.2 1.44 1316 64.3 23818 4771 0.763

#2 Observation:

For any given velocity, lower start pressure (lead bullets have the least) results in lower pressure. Looking at it another way, for any give max pressure, lead bullets fly the fastest! I've noticed this when shooting cast vs. jacketed bullets in a number of my revolvers over the years.

Here are a few 44 Special QL results at 900 fps. The higher start pressure (jacketed bullets) require higher pressure but less powder to fly the same 900 fps as the lowest start pressure bullets (lead/NOE bullets):

Powder type Filling/Loading Ratio Charge Charge Vel. Prop.Burnt P max P muzz B_Time
% Grains Gramm fps % psi psi ms
--------------------------------- -----------------------------------------------------------------
Alliant 2400 70.0 13.4 0.87 900 58.0 12840 5214 0.772
Alliant 2400 69.1 13.2 0.86 900 58.3 13177 5157 0.769 ! Near Maximum !
Alliant 2400 67.5 12.9 0.84 900 58.9 14042 5078 0.735 ! Near Maximum !

Accurate No.9 61.1 13.2 0.85 900 61.9 13120 5060 0.758
Accurate No.9 60.3 13.0 0.84 900 62.1 13436 5008 0.756 ! Near Maximum !
Accurate No.9 59.0 12.7 0.83 900 62.8 14224 4932 0.723 ! Near Maximum !

Ramshot Enforcer 72.1 14.8 0.96 900 57.6 12360 5378 0.778
Ramshot Enforcer 71.1 14.6 0.95 900 57.9 12638 5310 0.775
Ramshot Enforcer 69.0 14.2 0.92 900 58.6 13317 5189 0.737 ! Near Maximum !

Vihtavuori N110 90.6 15.5 1.00 900 55.0 12695 5367 0.762
Vihtavuori N110 89.3 15.2 0.99 900 55.3 12880 5294 0.762
Vihtavuori N110 86.4 14.8 0.96 900 55.9 13330 5152 0.729 ! Near Maximum !

IMR 4227 92.8 17.1 1.11 900 44.9 14440 4696 0.718 ! Near Maximum !
IMR 4227 91.6 16.9 1.09 900 45.1 14548 4637 0.719 ! Near Maximum !
IMR 4227 89.0 16.4 1.06 900 45.5 14790 4515 0.703 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!

Alliant POWER PISTOL 53.4 8.5 0.55 900 79.1 13276 4924 0.757 ! Near Maximum !
Alliant POWER PISTOL 52.9 8.5 0.55 900 79.4 13563 4891 0.756 ! Near Maximum !
Alliant POWER PISTOL 52.1 8.3 0.54 900 80.1 14234 4850 0.739 ! Near Maximum !

Alliant BLUE DOT 69.3 11.4 0.74 900 67.7 13337 5016 0.761 ! Near Maximum !
Alliant BLUE DOT 68.6 11.3 0.73 900 68.0 13650 4985 0.760 ! Near Maximum !
Alliant BLUE DOT 67.6 11.1 0.72 900 68.7 14376 4953 0.731 ! Near Maximum !

Hodgdon Lil'Gun 84.1 17.6 1.14 900 50.3 12724 5589 0.762
Hodgdon Lil'Gun 82.7 17.3 1.12 900 50.6 12829 5505 0.763
Hodgdon Lil'Gun 79.7 16.7 1.08 900 51.2 13096 5335 0.740


Alliant UNIQUE 54.0 7.0 0.45 900 96.5 14104 4487 0.752 ! Near Maximum !
Alliant UNIQUE 53.6 7.0 0.45 900 96.7 14417 4455 0.754 ! Near Maximum !
Alliant UNIQUE 53.1 6.9 0.45 900 97.1 15081 4427 0.729 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!

Vihtavuori N105 72.3 11.4 0.74 900 73.5 12043 5406 0.783
Vihtavuori N105 71.1 11.2 0.73 900 73.9 12258 5321 0.781
Vihtavuori N105 68.8 10.8 0.70 900 74.8 12821 5171 0.742

Hodgdon Universal 50.7 6.6 0.43 900 100.0 15048 4056 0.737 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
Hodgdon Universal 50.3 6.5 0.42 900 100.0 15392 4013 0.739 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT US
Hodgdon Universal 49.9 6.5 0.42 900 100.0 16082 3964 0.723 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
38 plated bullets load data 158Grain Reloading 19 09-01-2015 12:30 AM
Loading Data for 32 Plated Bullets Green Frog Reloading 6 08-31-2015 08:11 AM
Load Data for Plated Bullets Spartikus Reloading 5 08-23-2012 03:23 PM
How do you treat plated bullets when looking up load data?? Pastprime Reloading 15 06-24-2012 03:16 PM
Which data to use for plated bullets? PDL Reloading 5 12-27-2009 04:26 PM

Powered by vBadvanced CMPS v3.2.3
smith-wessonforum.com tested by Norton Internet Security smith-wessonforum.com tested by McAfee Internet Security

All times are GMT -4. The time now is 09:17 PM.


Search Engine Optimisation provided by DragonByte SEO v2.0.42 (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2018 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.
© S-W Forum, LLC 2000-2018
Smith-WessonForum.com is not affiliated with Smith & Wesson Holding Corporation (NASDAQ Global Select: SWHC)