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Old 05-04-2018, 02:17 PM
Buford57 Buford57 is offline
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Default Plated bullets - which data?

I came into some Berry's 130 gr. .356 plated bullets recently and want to load them for my .38 Super. I've never used plated before. I would THINK that jacketed rather than cast data should be used for them, but what is the experience of those who use these?
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Old 05-04-2018, 02:24 PM
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A lot of people will say to start with cast data, but I usually start somewhere between cast and FMJ. I wouldn't start with FMJ to err on the side of caution.
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Old 05-04-2018, 02:26 PM
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Start with cast data and work up.

Stop if your velocity is expected to reach 1200FPS
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Old 05-04-2018, 02:35 PM
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Originally Posted by colt_saa View Post
Start with cast data and work up.

Stop if your velocity is expected to reach 1200FPS
What he said. I usually add 1 or 2 tenths of a grain to lead data with any plated handgun bullet and work from there. Starting too high can be catastrophic to you and/or the gun. Starting in a safe zone only gives you better data points.

p.s. I load those same bullets in 38 super and 9mm. They are one of my favorites.
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Old 05-04-2018, 04:27 PM
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You'll find the plated bullet to be somewhat more slippery (OK, it doesn't take as much force to engrave the rifling and drive the bullet down the barrel) than jacketed and requires less powder to reach the same velocities. Exactly how much less depends upon what powder you're using.

Starting with middle of the load range lead bullet data is a good starting place.
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Old 05-04-2018, 05:46 PM
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1. Always remember Google is your best friend when looking for information.
2. When all else fails read the manufactures information.

Description

Berry's Superior Plated Bullets are swaged and plated to final weight and

re-struck for accuracy and precision. They are more affordable than jacketed rounds

and won't foul your barrel with lead.

SAAMI MAX COL = 1.280"
Can withstand velocities up to 1250 fps.

Question: Taper or Roll Crimp?

You can use both the Taper and Roll Crimp on Berry's Bullets.

We recommend a light crimp on the bullet, just enough to put pressure against the bullet without denting or deforming the plating. If you were to pull the bullet out of a case with the proper crimp you would find no more than a scratch on the surface of the plating. If you are denting or deforming the bullet, your accuracy will suffer and the bullet may start to tumble before it hits the target.

Question: How fast can I shoot these bullets?

We guarantee our Standard Pistol Bullets to handle velocities up to 1,250 fps, and up to 1,500 fps for the bullets designated as TP (thick plate).

Our 30-30 bullets can handle velocities up to 1,950 fps.

Our 45-70 bullets can handle velocities up to 1,700 fps.

Our 7.62x39 bullets can handle velocities up to 1,900 fps.

Our 30 Carbine bullets can handle velocities up to 1,750 fps.

Our 500 S&W bullets can handle velocities up to 2,000 fps.

Berryís cannot guarantee our bullet over the max velocity. You are running the risk of separating the plating from the lead core and possibly fouling your barrel with copper, you can also negatively affect accuracy.
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Old 05-05-2018, 12:46 AM
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In a 5" 9mm I got the Berry 115gr plated up to 1350fps. (+P)

Best high end accuracy was at 1257fps that is near a NATO spec.
My minimum fps full loads came in at 1198 and 1218.

So care with the 38 Super loads is needed, do to higher fps that it can put out.

Most powders with the 124gr bullet are safe in the 9mm but I did
get this heavier bullet up to 1257 and 1267 with two slow powders, so use care.

Accuracy came at 993 up to 1155fps in my 9mm with the 124 with
a oal of 1.14".

For some odd reason my 5" does not like plated bullets with short OAL.
A 115 ball at 1.10 and a 124gr ball at 1.09" did not do any better than a 1.14" OAL in my test.
Your 38 Super might be different in its OAL that it likes as well as
the speed of target up to medium heavy loads.

Safe shooting.
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Old 05-05-2018, 01:19 AM
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I use cast lead bullet data, and would start low and work my way up.
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Old 05-05-2018, 06:04 AM
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I recently switched from 158 grain LSWC lead bullets to Xtreme Bullets 158 grain plated LSWC. I have been told to use the lead data, but bump it a bit. I used to load 3.4 grains of HP38 with the lead bullets. I now load 3.6 with the plated. Max load is 3.8, so Iím still below max. I donít have a chronograph but Iím just punching paper and the 18 I have shot (Iím still using up the lead ones) have been good enough for me.
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Old 05-05-2018, 07:15 AM
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Plated bullets do fall between cast lead and jacketed. I have always used data for cast lead, but you may find it will take one or two tenths of a grain more powder than the cast lead data to achieve the same velocity as cast lead. As for crimp, although some have had success with roll crimping, taper crimping seems to be the least likely to damage the plating.
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Old 05-05-2018, 07:49 AM
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My only recommendation is donít load plated too light! I was shooting some Berryís 158gr with only 3gr Bullseye and worked ok but tried XTreme with same low powder load and had several ďstickĒ near the muzzle on 6 and 8Ē barrels. The both micíd the same diameter so I guess itís the difference in plating? Didnít have any load data when starting with plating so I started off too low. Now I use jacketed load data and have no problem but I found in my guns the Berryís 158gr THP to be the most accurate at mid range velocity. Pushed by 5gr Universal it is as accurate as any bullet ive tried.
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Old 05-05-2018, 10:02 AM
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I use rainier plated bullets in .45 colt . Their website states specifically you use jacketed bullet recipes, starting in the mid range. My bullets fell out when I first started using them on the first shot. Had to go from what I thought was a fairly tight roll crimp to a Lee factory crimp. The factory crimp cured my problem.
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Old 05-05-2018, 10:22 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bigedp51 View Post
1. Always remember Google is your best friend when looking for information.
2. When all else fails read the manufactures information.

Description

Berry's Superior Plated Bullets are swaged and plated to final weight and

re-struck for accuracy and precision. They are more affordable than jacketed rounds

and won't foul your barrel with lead.

SAAMI MAX COL = 1.280"
Can withstand velocities up to 1250 fps.

Question: Taper or Roll Crimp?

You can use both the Taper and Roll Crimp on Berry's Bullets.

We recommend a light crimp on the bullet, just enough to put pressure against the bullet without denting or deforming the plating. If you were to pull the bullet out of a case with the proper crimp you would find no more than a scratch on the surface of the plating. If you are denting or deforming the bullet, your accuracy will suffer and the bullet may start to tumble before it hits the target.

Question: How fast can I shoot these bullets?

We guarantee our Standard Pistol Bullets to handle velocities up to 1,250 fps, and up to 1,500 fps for the bullets designated as TP (thick plate).

Our 30-30 bullets can handle velocities up to 1,950 fps.

Our 45-70 bullets can handle velocities up to 1,700 fps.

Our 7.62x39 bullets can handle velocities up to 1,900 fps.

Our 30 Carbine bullets can handle velocities up to 1,750 fps.

Our 500 S&W bullets can handle velocities up to 2,000 fps.

Berryís cannot guarantee our bullet over the max velocity. You are running the risk of separating the plating from the lead core and possibly fouling your barrel with copper, you can also negatively affect accuracy.

Thank goodness there is at least one other person that can use a computer and actually read!

Just to add, not ALL plated bullets are the same. Some brands are darn near FMJ. Some are thinner.

Regardless plated bullets are NOT as fragile as some think, even in a 38 super at max charges you will probably not exceed the stated max velocity.
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Old 05-05-2018, 10:35 AM
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Because of the CMP requirement for jacketed or plated bullets, I have ordered a supply of Speer TMJ bullets for their 45 matches. The Speer TMJ bullets are supposed to have a thicker layer of plating than most other plated bullets. Additionally, Speer has recommended reloading data for their TMJ bullets.
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Old 05-05-2018, 11:05 AM
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I've shot a couple thousand plated bullets in my 38 SPL, and always used jacketed load data, some of which was loaded pretty hot. Never had a problem of any kind. I used jacket data because I had seen several posts where folks got plated bullets stuck using cast data, especially with the Berry DEWCs.
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Old 05-05-2018, 11:32 AM
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Use jacketed bullet load data. Do searches this question has been asked time and time again. People that don't know better will say use cast load data. People that have done it will tell you jacketed load data is just fine.
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Old 05-05-2018, 01:06 PM
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My $0.02: As a MINIMUM load use jacketeted data. Plated bullets have more resistance than lead. (The only squibs I have created in load development were mimimum power PHBWC and PFBWC using cast lead data.) Plated, especially the thick plating can handle more fps than cast, but the plating WILL shed and remain in your grooves at higher fps, so you won't be able to get high end jacketed performance out of plated bullets.
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Old 05-05-2018, 03:52 PM
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I've used jacketed data in a number of cartridges I load with no ill effects. With 500SW I went all the way to max (data from powder mfr), which was still way below stated max for the bullet (Berry's says it's 2000fps).
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Old 05-05-2018, 04:37 PM
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Jacketed data, with max load being book max or the charge at which the bullet's max velocity can be reached, whichever is lower.

Note that differences in your COL and barrel length from those used in the book test results must, as always, affect your interpretation of that data.
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Old 05-05-2018, 04:55 PM
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Thanks to all. So far I hear start with lead data and work up, start with jacketed data or risk stuck bullets, start in the middle.

Also a very enlightening introduction to search engines and the cut and paste feature.

Since the Lee manual includes data specific to plated bullets I think I can get started.
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Old 05-05-2018, 08:00 PM
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Thanks to all. So far I hear start with lead data and work up, start with jacketed data or risk stuck bullets, start in the middle.

Also a very enlightening introduction to search engines and the cut and paste feature.

Since the Lee manual includes data specific to plated bullets I think I can get started.

Maybe this may simplify the answer. Direct from Berrys.

Bad Request

Question: Do you have load data available? COL or OAL? Please consult load data books or your powder manufacturers' website for load information. You can use any published data as long as it is the same weight (FMJ, Lead, Plated, etc.)
-Standard Plate Bullets max velocity- 1,250 fps.
-Thick Plate Bullets (TP) max velocity- 1,500 fps.
For SAAMI MAX COL specs or OAL of the bullet please click HERE.
We recommend a light crimp on the bullet, just enough to put pressure against the bullet without denting or deforming the plating. If you were to pull the bullet out of a case with the proper crimp you would find no more than a scratch on the surface of the plating. If you are denting or deforming the bullet, your accuracy will suffer and the bullet may start to tumble before it hits the target.
Here are websites with load data information,
Page not found – Hodgdon
Page not found << Accurate Powders
Alliant Powder - Reloader's Guide
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Old 05-05-2018, 08:58 PM
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COL or OAL may be significant for feeding a semi or fitting cartridges into a cylinder. But it is irrelevant for loading the cartridge. The Useable Volume under the bullet is important, but different bullets of different shapes and different lead alloys and different jacket design/thickness and different plating thicknesses will have different Useable Volumes at the same bullet weights and OALs. The way to know for sure is to measure them.
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Old 05-06-2018, 02:56 AM
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COL or OAL may be significant for feeding a semi or fitting cartridges into a cylinder. But it is irrelevant for loading the cartridge. The Useable Volume under the bullet is important, but different bullets of different shapes and different lead alloys and different jacket design/thickness and different plating thicknesses will have different Useable Volumes at the same bullet weights and OALs. The way to know for sure is to measure them.
Yes, you can only use COL as a surrogate for residual case volume when the bullets are the same length and perhaps base profile.

Fortunately, a Speer 115gr GDHP @ factory spec is 0.560". That's a good enough match for Berrys (.556-.564) which was the OP's specific question, as well as Xtreme (0.553-0.557) and Precision Delta (.560-.564). According to Quickload, other brand name FMJ bullets are in that same ballpark too.

I suspect that's why Hodgdon can continue to list only the GDHP as the example of a copper surfaced bullet.

(I've never seen a 115gr LRN, but Hodgdon's 1.100" test COL has always made me curious. Anyone know the length of a typical LRN? Unless they are really short, that may help explain the lower powder charge range.)
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Old 05-06-2018, 06:32 AM
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Yes, you can only use COL as a surrogate for residual case volume when the bullets are the same length and perhaps base profile.

Fortunately, a Speer 115gr GDHP @ factory spec is 0.560". That's a good enough match for Berrys (.556-.564) which was the OP's specific question, as well as Xtreme (0.553-0.557) and Precision Delta (.560-.564). According to Quickload, other brand name FMJ bullets are in that same ballpark too.

I suspect that's why Hodgdon can continue to list only the GDHP as the example of a copper surfaced bullet.

(I've never seen a 115gr LRN, but Hodgdon's 1.100" test COL has always made me curious. Anyone know the length of a typical LRN? Unless they are really short, that may help explain the lower powder charge range.)
Stupid question, but where do you see both cast and jacketed data for
Same bullet listed together? I have a few manuals but generally use the data from the Hodgson website. For a 158 grain bullet and HP38, they only lost two bullets. A Hornady xtp and a cast LSWC. The Hornady has a range of 3.8 to 4.3. The cast is 3.1 to 3.8. I load my 158 grain swc plated xtreme bullet at 3.6 grains. Too light?

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Old 05-06-2018, 08:14 AM
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Stupid question, but where do you see both cast and jacketed data for
Same bullet listed together? I have a few manuals but generally use the data from the Hodgson website. For a 158 grain bullet and HP38, they only lost two bullets. A Hornady xtp and a cast LSWC. The Hornady has a range of 3.8 to 4.3. The cast is 3.1 to 3.8. I load my 158 grain swc plated xtreme bullet at 3.6 grains. Too light?
There is a difference in the friction or "tension" of a jacketed bullet compared to a lead bullet

Jacketed are usually high loads to get them "moving" out of the case.

How much difference between jacketed and plated? I really don't know. I pretty much treat them the same but do not use Berrys. Some other makes are thicker plating.

Technically a Speer Gold Dot is a "plated" bullet.
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Old 05-06-2018, 10:02 AM
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Campro data lists the same as jacket data. I shoot a lot of them from light to full magnum and no issues.

Bullet manufacturer - premium-caliber bullets polished and inspected by hand - Qu'ebec - CamPro
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Old 05-06-2018, 01:20 PM
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Campro data lists the same as jacket data. I shoot a lot of them from light to full magnum and no issues.

Bullet manufacturer - premium-caliber bullets polished and inspected by hand - Qu'ebec - CamPro
Nice web site. Pretty cool that they give load data!
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Old 05-06-2018, 02:05 PM
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There is a difference in the friction or "tension" of a jacketed bullet compared to a lead bullet

Jacketed are usually high loads to get them "moving" out of the case.

How much difference between jacketed and plated? I really don't know. I pretty much treat them the same but do not use Berrys. Some other makes are thicker plating.

Technically a Speer Gold Dot is a "plated" bullet.
Thanks. So 3.6 grains is too light? When the jacketed recipe calls for starting load of 3.8 for the Hornady bullet, which is not a SWC?

I loaded up 18 at 3.6 and shot them. No problems. I loaded another 200 more that I haven’t shot yet. Don’t want to break them down. Should I bump the weight up for the Xtreme plated bullet? I haven’t see. A recipe for a 158 grain plated bullet using HP38.

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Old 05-06-2018, 02:10 PM
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This question about lead or jacketed loading data for plated bullets is a complete joke! If anyone would compare the two, same bullet weight and powder, you will see that rarely is there a significant difference in charge weight between jacketed and lead. Hasn't anyone else noticed this, or does everyone just parrot what has been read on the internet? What is even stupider is manufacturers of plated bullets publish the same baloney. I guess no one selling plated bullets is a shooter!

As a matter of fact, it is not unusual, when pressure is the criteria, that the lead bullet data is .1-.2 gr. heavier than jacketed data!
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Old 05-06-2018, 05:18 PM
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Thanks. So 3.6 grains is too light? When the jacketed recipe calls for starting load of 3.8 for the Hornady bullet, which is not a SWC?

I loaded up 18 at 3.6 and shot them. No problems. I loaded another 200 more that I havenít shot yet. Donít want to break them down. Should I bump the weight up for the Xtreme plated bullet? I havenít see. A recipe for a 158 grain plated bullet using HP38.

All I am gonna say. Long ago I used some Berry Plated bullets. They were cheap and worked OK, they their prices went up to pretty much FMJ prices and to me their plating and consistency declined. I have not use their bullets for years,

I use coated lead bullets or FMJ bullets. I do have some plated bullets from RMR and they are pretty much FMJ.

For plated bullets I use regular FMJ data, I do not load at max loads anyway.
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Old 05-06-2018, 06:32 PM
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All I am gonna say. Long ago I used some Berry Plated bullets. They were cheap and worked OK, they their prices went up to pretty much FMJ prices and to me their plating and consistency declined. I have not use their bullets for years,

I use coated lead bullets or FMJ bullets. I do have some plated bullets from RMR and they are pretty much FMJ.

For plated bullets I use regular FMJ data, I do not load at max loads anyway.
As always, thank you. But can you point me to a source of fmj 158 grain SWC ammo using HP38 or 231?
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Old 05-07-2018, 09:58 AM
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As always, thank you. But can you point me to a source of fmj 158 grain SWC ammo using HP38 or 231?

If it was ME, I would just use the data for any FMJ 158 gr bullet in 38 special.

Like the Hodgdon Data for a 158 gr XTP HP

The shape of the bullet is not gonna matter even if you adjust the COL a bit. Not like the 38 special is a blistering high pressure round,
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Old 05-07-2018, 01:05 PM
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As always, thank you. But can you point me to a source of fmj 158 grain SWC ammo using HP38 or 231?
Personally, I think Rule3's answer is sound and I would do the same.

The firearm industry is different than perhaps any other consumer products group. They actually expect questions, and they actually give answers. If you call Hodgdon (which you absolutely should), my bet is they'll give the same advice.
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Old 05-07-2018, 01:21 PM
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If it was ME, I would just use the data for any FMJ 158 gr bullet in 38 special.

Like the Hodgdon Data for a 158 gr XTP HP

The shape of the bullet is not gonna matter even if you adjust the COL a bit. Not like the 38 special is a blistering high pressure round,
Good advice.

Just be aware that if you start loading small-case, high-pressure calibers - like 9mm - the same principle doesn't always apply. Or at least not to the same degree.

In those calibers small variations in case volume due to different COL and bullet base shapes CAN make a significant difference, because the case volumes are so small to start with and the pressures are so much higher. In that case it is much more important to match bullet type and construction and COL to the published data as closely as possible.

And always start at the low end and work up. A chronometer is your friend, because although velocity isn't an exact measure of pressures, it is generally a good indicator, Without velocity info you're flying almost completely blind.
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Old 05-07-2018, 06:25 PM
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If it was ME, I would just use the data for any FMJ 158 gr bullet in 38 special.

Like the Hodgdon Data for a 158 gr XTP HP

The shape of the bullet is not gonna matter even if you adjust the COL a bit. Not like the 38 special is a blistering high pressure round,
Thanks again, to you and everyone else. I’ll bump it up from the 3.6 I make now to the 3.8 for the Hornady XTP. That’s starting load for that bullet. Maybe go 3.9

I do love this forum. Guys here walked me through my first reloads summer of 2013, Rule3 especially.
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