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Old 05-10-2018, 12:13 AM
gehlsurf gehlsurf is offline
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Default Suppressed 38 spl/357 Mag vs 45-70 subs

Hi guys,

So I've had a blast loading 308 subs for my M1A Scout and Omega suppressor (have to hand cycle, but stupid accurate and quiet!!).

Got me wanting to cast and shoot subs. While this can be done for 308 and my M1A, it would need to be powder coated, hand cycled, stuck with certain grains per bullet (twist not made for heavies), etc. A straight walled cartridge (I use the Lee hand press or Lee classic loader-mallet kit typically) would be easiest. I have a press, but am just as fast with the hand loader and can do it while watching my son, etc in the house.

Looked up 45-70 and 357 Mag/38 Spl (load for this now) and rifles seem to be optimal for heavy cast bullets according to twist rate stability calculators, up to 200 grain for 357 and 300 plus up to 450 or more for 45-70.

Have any of you had good success to maybe 100 yds with subs in these calibers? It would be a custom (form 1) can probably. And if so, how quiet? I'm assuming 45-70 is hard suppressed, lots of gas. I have an integrally supressed 12 gauge, and building a second as we speak... quiet, really quiet for what it is. But same thing, lots of gas to contend with. Am I wrong on 45-70? 357 would be stupid quiet I think.

Thank you for any advice. Probably more of a rifle question than reload topic, but then again, subs supressed is mostly home rolled anyhow, so figured one of y'all must be fooled around with this idea!
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Old 05-10-2018, 01:19 AM
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colt_saa colt_saa is online now
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Your right, most of this tinkering is done by hand loaders

For the 357 I load the Remington 180 grain SJHP and shoot them from a 1892 lever action that is threaded. Unfortunately this is a very hard to find projectile and I am down to my last few thousnad

I also load 300 grain JHPs in the 45LC for use in a Lightning Pump rifle that is threaded

I load 240 grain JSPs in the 10MM Auto for use in an integrally suppressed SMG

The 45-70 does not gain much over the 45LC if you are keeping the projectiles subsonic. You can load 400s into a 45LC and hit 1000FPS with it (obviously not for use in 100 year old revolvers), but it will work great in modern lever guns and pump rifles
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Old 05-10-2018, 04:39 AM
Ivan the Butcher Ivan the Butcher is offline
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Lyman made a 45-70/458 Win Mag bullet that weighed 540 grains. In a 45-70 case you can easily make the upper sub sonic threshold.

Most people want the high speed/ low drag performance, but I've been playing with sub-sonics since 1984. Heavy and slow; Is the way to go!

Ivan
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Old 05-10-2018, 07:12 AM
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LoboGunLeather LoboGunLeather is offline
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If I were planning such a project I would seriously consider the benefits of an integrally suppressed barrel rather than a can suppressor. Bleeding the gas off behind the bullet in the bore allows for more effective suppression, as the volume of gas that can be effectively controlled within the suppressor can be much greater.

Ruger offers the 77-22, 77-357, and 77-44 series of rifles chambered in .22LR, .357 magnum, and .44 magnum respectively. I have experienced the 77-22 with integral suppressor, and it was easily the quietest suppressed firearm I have ever heard; literally, you can hear the striker hitting the cartridge, and muzzle noise doesn't even rate as a "pop". Even with high velocity .22LR ammo the integral suppressor bleeds off the gas so effectively that muzzle velocity is subsonic.

I would expect good results with the .357 and .44 rifles if equipped with good integrally suppressed barrels.

I suppose that a .45-70 rifle could be suppressed pretty effectively with an integrally suppressed barrel. The standard factory load (405-grain bullet at +/- 1350 FPS) would probably be reduced in muzzle velocity to subsonic levels, but the canister size of the suppressor fitted over and around the barrel would have to be rather large to contain the volume of gas involved. Handloads using heavy bullets and reduced powder charges would be easier to suppress. Factory rifles chambered in .45-70 are typically lever action designs with tubular magazines, which would make the fitting of a large-diameter integrally suppressed barrel more of a challenge.

Any of the larger calibers produce volumes of gases that would quickly foul a suppressor, limiting effectiveness (as expressed in rounds fired before disassembly and cleaning are required), thus creating more cleaning and maintenance work.

The only downside, if it is one at all, is that the suppressor is part of the firearm so the entire piece requires registration and can only be transferred as a unit.
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Old 05-10-2018, 09:21 AM
ruggyh ruggyh is offline
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for .458 caliber we are using these with excellent results

Vers 458 | Bowers Group


be safe
Ruggy
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Old 05-10-2018, 09:50 AM
gehlsurf gehlsurf is offline
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I figured there would be some smart answers on here, lol. Integrally supressed seems to be the consensus here, and I agree, especially with the 45-70. Like I said, got an integrally suppressed single shot 12 gauge, and building another as we speak, but pump action. If you want details I can explain, stupid simple, lol, will be a 3+1.

I may mess around with 357/38, as I have a form 1 can that I haven't drilled out yet, or done the for yet. Was gonna use it on my AR 9 pistol, so not a far spread from 357 bullet.

I honestly kind of think that the .357 projectile would be more accurate in a longer/heavier bullet than the 45-70 stubby bullet. But maybe I'm wrong.

Is there a good lever gun that is pretty good at feeding different length bullets? This is what kind of draws me away from the Ruger. Heard its picky in what it feeds. I would go single, and may do that. But $700+ (Ruger No 1 or TC) for a single shot is hard to swallow!! Especially when there are alot of sexy levers out there. Been eyeing that Marlin 1894 stainless with grey laminate.
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Old 05-10-2018, 10:01 AM
gehlsurf gehlsurf is offline
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Lobogunlover, you're totally right in needing a big can for the 45-70. My 12 gauge is humungous!! 18" long, 2.5" diameter (I think) but is stupid quiet. The pump we're building is only going to be 11.5" and 2 or 2.25" diameter (cant remember right now). But this has overall barrel of 18" and 3 shot tube, so construction of it was limited. It's more to just limit report, be fast handling type brush shotgun if you will. Putting a foldable stock as well, keeping the "cruiser" size. Its gonna be perfect at nothing, but definitely swiss army knife in my safe, lol.

I think the 45-70 would have the same issue, lots of gases. Would for sure be awesome! But also reloading may take more work than the 357 I already load. Would think case capacity may be issue, using dacron or such to fill cases when loading subs with some powders. Again, I've never done this, hence that's why I'm here, lol. But guessing as to what would have to be done. 357/38 seems like a "plug and play" type gun, because of physical characteristics. Making a Honda quiet (357/38) is MUCH easier than making a freight train (45-70) quiet.

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Old 05-10-2018, 10:12 AM
gehlsurf gehlsurf is offline
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Ivan the butcher, heavy and slow is good, but which one do you find to be more accurate?

I think I'll be you in the future, lol, I love subs. No trouble in pressures (actions and barrels last forever) and light recoil and quiet, what's not to love!?!?! It is a learning curve though, especially hunting. I hit a pig last year with a subsonic 525 lyman slug, hit his shoulder. Um.... just left a quarter size hole of burned off hair, lol. I felt bad, but my 10mm finished the job easily. Have had the same issue with dove. They fall, but still alive. This year I think I'm gonna try my .177 mold. May seem a bit large, but it's what I have. Heavy and slow bird shot of you will, unless you have some advice.

The pigs, well, been working on my M1A subs, so think I have that covered now. They are ridiculous quiet with my Silencerco Omega, and amazing accuracy. So a clean behind ear shot is doable at 50 yes. In Florida, your typically 50 yds or closer.
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