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Old 05-13-2018, 10:49 PM
rpollard01 rpollard01 is offline
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Default S&W 500 Reloading Ranier

Hi,

I have done a ton of research on reloading the 500 and thought I would try a recipe out to see where I stood.
Also, I have been reloading 9mm and 223 for 2 years. Just so you know.

I got the data from Ranier.
Projectile Weight: 335 gr
Powder: Alliant 2400
Charge: 31 gr
Velocity: 1480
Dies: RCBS 3 die set with a roll crimp
OAL: 2.07
Primers: Win LRM

Roll crimp is about .004” less then the case below the neck. Measured at the very top where the roll crimp is.

I loaded 5 and shot 4. Measured the OAL on the remaining one in the cylinder and it appears the projectile moved to 015” more than the set length. I set it at 2.07 and it now measures 2.085.
The primers on all 4 have expanded and flattened but still stayed barely below flush with the primer cup. Being that the primer shifted out and expanded, this tells me the roll crimp is too tight. However, the charge is the bottom of the range. I still have more charge that can be added but as tight as the crimp is, and the appearance of a bulging primer already, I don’t think I can add more charge. Nor can I loosen the crimp as the other rounds will loosen more.
One thing to note: The crimp appears to have created a noticeable indentation where the crimp was. Being that the bullet moved out of that groove, I can see the crimp pressure’s effect. This is why I’m cautious about more crimp.

Any suggestions?

Thanks in advance!

Last edited by rpollard01; 05-14-2018 at 09:25 AM.
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Old 05-14-2018, 12:25 AM
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Respectfully...
I believe that 90-95% of handloaders that "read" primers are being wildly misled, and misdiagnose what they believe they see in the appearance of a primer.

Primer reading is a horribly vague sport akin to reading tea leaves. Aside from a LEAKING or pierced primer... it's extremely difficult to nail down certain answers from what can be seen.

The best possible way to gain information from visually inspecting primers is to compare and constrast primers across an array of loads when the ONLY variable is the powder charge weight.

If the load data says you have room and the brass ejects freely, I think you are being falsely lead by trying to read primers.

I also don't believe you can have too much crimp in a .454, .460 or .500 Mag unless/until you have wrecked the brass or the bullet.

Finally, I'm not much a fan of Ranier plated bullets. In other calibers, I prefer Berry's and Xtreme. And in a monster magnum of extremely high pressure, it seems like putting the cart before the horse to use cheap bullets.
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Old 05-14-2018, 09:37 AM
rpollard01 rpollard01 is offline
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@Sevens,
Respect is appreciated but 2 years experience makes not an expert in my experience. But, thanks!

Anyway, the advice about primers is noted and appreciated. I was told the primers were showing signs of pressure by the local RSO who was an old timer.
The primers seemed pretty easy to seat but no more easier than other rounds I load.
So, all that said, even the groove the crimp caused, which I forgot to include in my above description when you read it originally, Iím thinking, as you said, short of destroying the bullet and short of ripping the plating off as it pulls out of the case, I can try more crimp, correct???

Thanks!
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Old 05-14-2018, 10:01 AM
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I believe that yes, you can try more crimp -- but the amount of movement you observed isn't enough to concern me quite honestly. If the Ranier 335gr has a crimp groove and your 5th round was still in that groove, I wouldn't be quick to worry.

Myself, for the "bullet pull" test, I like to run twice -- so 8 rounds with that #5 round subjected to all the recoil.
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Old 05-14-2018, 10:37 AM
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Flatted primer are normal in 454, 460 and 500 S&W. primers.

Case will start to become sticky at just over 60kpsi.

You case extraction as a guide to load pressure on these cartridges.

The crimp won't make more the 1000 psi difference in peak pressure.

It will be easy to demonstrate.

Load a case and don't crimp- shoot make you primer observation and you will see it is no different than those you crimped.

Mr Stevens posts are on the money.

be safe
Ruggy
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Old 05-14-2018, 01:16 PM
rpollard01 rpollard01 is offline
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@Sevens,

The Ranier projectiles do not have a crimp groove. Itís an Action Express round but Ranier said it works in the 500.
Just to be clear, there was a self inflicted groove created with the roll crimp. The #5 round jumped out of that groove.
From what Iím hearing, I should not worry about the primer until it starts coming out of the primer pocket, correct?
And 2x run with same #5 round sounds like a good plan.
Thanks!
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Old 05-14-2018, 01:22 PM
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@ruggyh,
Thanks for validation. Also, you just gave me key information I searched the Internet for and couldnít find, Whatís the best way to judge pressure issues and how does the crimp affect it.
The plan is, Iím going to measure the crimp so Iíll know what it will take to keep the bullet in the case at this charge and then use that as a guideline for hotter loads.
Sound like a plan?

Thanks guys!
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Old 05-14-2018, 02:07 PM
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Not being insulting or offensive, but why would you use cheap bullets in a premimum revolver with a newer "high tech." cartridge?

This thread is one of the reasons I don't recommend plated bullets to new reloaders; not enough easily found info. As for increasing the crimp, on a plated bullet in a heavy recoiling gun it will be pretty much trial and error. Add more crimp until pulled bullets show damage and plating cutting. Shoot a few and check following chambered rounds for "walking" bullets.

I'd suggest some regular jacketed or even cast lead bullets to start with and shopping around you can find some good prices...
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Old 05-14-2018, 02:22 PM
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I see no reason whatsoever to be concerned with what you see (or think you see) in a primer unless/until it is leaking.

Agree with mikld above that regardless of what Ranier says, these are not optimum bullets for a .500 S&W Magnum. They should be used for light target only... keeping in mind that at much lower speeds, you may find yourself needing to adjust sight elevation just to get them on target.

Furthermore... the "self inflicted" groove you witness is your first step toward cutting through that plating.

Perhaps of much more concern would be forcing cone/barrel damage if you ended up sending these lightly constructed bullets at too high a pressure.

Though I had a short little dance with .500 Mag myself, I ended up selling that one to focus on .460 Mag. Ballisticians from Alliant stressed in more than one conversation with me the importance if using "Magnum" bullets (such as the .452" 240 grain XTP-Mag bullet) in .454, .460 and large, high pressure magnum revolvers. As they explained, the irrational stress imparted to the slug at a full load can willfully distort the bullet in it's jump from cylinder to forcing cone.

If that bullet gets distorted and attempts to hit the forcing cone "out of round", eventual damage will result. This isn't exclusive to .454/.460/.500 but a potential problem in .327 Federal Magnum also -- any revolver round of high pressure where lightly constructed bullets running outside their design scope.

For your Ranier plated in .500 Magnum, I wouldn't attempt to run them at anything approaching full-spec and capability of the .500 Magnum.

Yes, .500 Magnum components are expensive... but compared to factory ammo, you're still getting a helluva bargain by handloading. If you want to shoot .500 Mag... spend the money for quality bullets.
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Old 05-14-2018, 06:12 PM
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Try using a faster burning charcoal and add some water soaked Mesquite for added smoke.

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Old 05-14-2018, 08:52 PM
rpollard01 rpollard01 is offline
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I talked to Ranier again today and they said I can crimp until I see splattering of copper on a card board target.
On the matter of spending more... I did not state this up front but this is only for target practice. Ranier said I should be able get it up to ~1700 ft/s. Not sure but will see...
Also, I have researched for quite a while for non-plated FMJ projectiles. As far as I know, they do not exist. There is however, a multitude of hunting/self defense rounds at around $1.00 per projectile. Utterly ridiculous for plinking...
I know where I can get 300 gr. 1195 ft/s factory ammo for $0.96 per round. My goal is to beat that price building my own. With Ranier and even Berry's which is higher, I can build them cheaper and still exceed the 1200 ft/s of the factory rounds.
If you guys know of an FMJ lead safe projectile that's not ~$1.00 per projectile, please point me in that direction... The one stipulation I have is, I don't want to shoot leaded or hard cast for health reasons. Lead is extremely toxic to humans.

Any ideas where one can get stronger than plated FMJs for the 500?

Thanks!
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Old 05-14-2018, 09:20 PM
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You are way, WAY off base in the health risks and concerns regarding lead and especially lead bullets. I could tell you how and why, but your mind seems made up. You should research this subject-- the education may be enlightening.
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Old 05-14-2018, 10:04 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rpollard01 View Post
@ruggyh,
Thanks for validation. Also, you just gave me key information I searched the Internet for and couldnít find, Whatís the best way to judge pressure issues and how does the crimp affect it.
The plan is, Iím going to measure the crimp so Iíll know what it will take to keep the bullet in the case at this charge and then use that as a guideline for hotter loads.
Sound like a plan?

Thanks guys!
The only sure way to know the pressure is to use published data were actual testing has been performed.

Velocity and pressure do not have a direct correlation between powders.

It takes about 80KPSI to blow a primer loose (my actual testing), if you get to this point you are not following a good loading practice.; start low and work up. If the cases have sticky extraction you have reached the limit.

Also use bullets within their pressure/velocity rating. Jacket separations can have catastrophic results.

Look at older posts on 460 and 500 for addition discussion.

Reloading for 500 is not difficult, use appropriate components for the load in development.

Use enough crimp to prevent bullet jump/creep - don't get crazy - it is possible to crimp and create a buckle or bulge at the crimp which will prevent the round from being chambered.

As I mentioned in previous post the crimp will have little effect on peak pressure.

Your bullet selection is ok for reduced load but should not be used for real 500 potential loads.

be safe
Ruggy
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Old 05-14-2018, 10:08 PM
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@Sevens,
Tell me why?

I've seen scientific data on numerous sources where lead and other heavy metals are the cause of diseases like Alzheimer. I've done research for close to 10 years on health related subjects. There's even warnings on labels with anything with lead that has the potential of being airborne.

The lead and other heavy metals research I've done had nothing to do with soft/hard cast bullets. It was exposure in food and water sources that are considered dangerous by the EPA.

Should stress that I have not studied the effects of soft/hard cast bullets on humans. But, since there are even warning labels on lead based ammo, I would assume there's a reason for that...

Also, it's entirely possible that the airborne lead effect is lessened as the hardness of the lead increases??? Not sure.


Thanks!

Last edited by rpollard01; 05-14-2018 at 10:20 PM.
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Old 05-14-2018, 10:18 PM
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@ruggyh,

Good info as always.

I believe I am following common sense approaches to reloading. My first 5 loads were minimum recommended charge for Alliant 2400 at 31 grains for the Raniers.
I'm not increasing the charge until I get control of the bullet creep. And by control, I mean I know precisely what neck crimp works best and I've fired quite a few rounds with consistent results.
BTW, Ranier also said to buy a Lee Factory Crimp die. Unfortunately, they do not make a die for the 500. The best they have is you can send them seated bullet and they will custom build one. That's crazy being that there's numerous projectiles that would be seated differently for each one. Heck of a deal for them as they will charge $30 for each one. Not very cost effective.

Thanks!
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Old 05-14-2018, 10:35 PM
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Just to cover all the basis...

I need better alternatives for target practice than hunting/self defense rounds. It doesn't make sense to spend $1.00 per projectile that is used for hunting/self defense only to shoot at paper.
To date, there is no FMJs I have found other than plated that are reasonably priced. If Berry's makes a better bullet than Ranier, I'm there. I shot some Magtech FMJ flat point factory ammo a couple of weeks back. Loved it but can't find that projectile.

I have not and do not plan on pushing these rounds way past their 1500 ft/s recommended. I may go past it but not very far and very cautiously.

And maybe, if Seven can help me with some research that indicates soft/hard cast bullets are not poisonous, I'll look at that as well as they are way cheaper and you can go all the way to 700 gr.

Thanks for everyone's help. It's appreciated very much! REALLY good information that I have not been able to find. You guys should write a book.
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Old 05-15-2018, 10:59 AM
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Quote:
And maybe, if Seven can help me with some research that indicates soft/hard cast bullets are not poisonous, I'll look at that as well as they are way cheaper and you can go all the way to 700 gr.
Lead has to enter the body to be harmful. The ability to absorb lead lead through touch is not existent for all practicable purposes. For that matter one could swallow a bullet and it would pass without being absorbed. Lead oxides that are breathed are more of an issue along with and lead sulfates/sulfides.

The primer used today provide more potential exposure to lead compounds than the bullet.

If you are really concerned you should have you physician do a base line lead blood level test (it is not really lead but lead compounds) and get checked to an annual bases to see if your levels have changed.

Shooting indoors with little ventilation poses the biggest risk - breathing the primer residue - Lead styphnate.

Ask yourself how often do you hear of some get /having lead poisoning from reloading or even shooting.

be safe
Ruggy
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Old 05-15-2018, 04:23 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rpollard01 View Post
@Sevens,
Tell me why?

I've seen scientific data on numerous sources where lead and other heavy metals are the cause of diseases like Alzheimer. I've done research for close to 10 years on health related subjects. There's even warnings on labels with anything with lead that has the potential of being airborne.

The lead and other heavy metals research I've done had nothing to do with soft/hard cast bullets. It was exposure in food and water sources that are considered dangerous by the EPA.

Should stress that I have not studied the effects of soft/hard cast bullets on humans. But, since there are even warning labels on lead based ammo, I would assume there's a reason for that...

Also, it's entirely possible that the airborne lead effect is lessened as the hardness of the lead increases??? Not sure.


Thanks!
I can only cite empirical testing/observations. In my time playing with lead bullets (started reloading
38 Specials with 158 gr LSWC in '69 and started casting for my .44 Magnums in '89, and shooting them to Magnum velocities) I have heard of only one person affected by lead's toxicity and he was a full time bullet that had been casting for nearly 20 years. Everything else has been, as far as lead and the shooting sports, is conjecture or speculation. If you are around reloading forums long enough you will read of the "lead poisoning" inflicted on unknowing reloaders and shooters from casting, handling, shooting lead bullets to lead styphinate in primer during shooting and the lead styphinate in the tumbling media from spent primers is just theory or someone quoting an off the wall "report". I've been casting sinkers longer than I can remember, many years, shooting for about 50 years (with mebbe the majority of my shooting being done indoors), reloading for 30+ years and casting lead bullets for well over 20 years and my annual blood tests show a low to normal lead level.

I also believe the "warnings" are politically motivated to "insure" a supposedly toxic substance is identified. Yes, lead can be toxic and detrimental to human beings, but at the levels found in shooting/casting it would take many years of daily exposure to be of any concern.

I'm not saying to be "cavalier" about the safety side of cast bullets and lead, but much of the information is either old wive's tales or scare tactics...

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Old 05-15-2018, 05:12 PM
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I stopped casting bullets in 1982 after reading a article in the American Rifleman.

It had nothing to do with pure lead, "BUT" it had to do with the heavy metals in wheel weights. The article stated there was no difference in blood lead levels between plumbers and bullet casters. But bullet casters who used wheel weights had much higher heavy metals content in their blood.

I had two small boys under three years old at the time so I quit casting. It was a shame the wheel weight manufactures at the time were putting so much junk metals in the wheel weights.

The days of cheap Linotype and pure lead are long gone and its not as cost effective casting if you have to buy good materials.
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Old 05-15-2018, 05:18 PM
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You can also go coated with lead bullets too, such as the Hi-tek coated bullets Missouri Bullet Co. sells for loading the S&W 500. The bullet is completely coated with the Hi-tek polymer with no exposed lead. And my experience with the Hi-tek coating is that it holds up well at higher velocities than plated bullets. I don't own any .500 caliber weapon, but I have shot the MBC .357 140 Zinger bullets at over 1900 ft/sec out of my Rossi carbine without any failure of the coating or leading in the barrel. That stuff is tough. And there are also folks that use powder coating on hard cast bullets that give excellent results too but I've never personally tried any PC bullets.
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Old 05-15-2018, 06:04 PM
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I've loaded 2k plus .500 mag. I tried to be economical and use plated bullets and discovered they jump the groove no matter how tight I crimp them.

I load full power loads in the .44 and .500. I just don't see why you tame them way down and waste all that money and time to watch the bullet fall out of the end of the barrel. I bought these calibers to experience the benefits of them... back to your loading problems.

So in my experience all the plated bullets jump the groove created by the crimp the 3rd - 4th round. I use only jacketed bullets now.

For economical jacketed loading, I use Zero jacketed at a great price. (as good if not better than plated pricing,) followed by Hornady, and Sierra jacketed.

I'm almost out of plated bullets and I use them for my .44 auto.
500's are all gone ....jacketed only for me on these big jumper revolvers
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Old 05-15-2018, 06:17 PM
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I know they have found elevated levels of lead in the brain along with fluoride and other heavy metals in the brain in Alzheimer’s patience after death. This was from brain surgeon reports.
I will take another look at the information I have received here and consider using them based on what you guys said.
I like the idea of the coated in which I saw during research but didn’t see anything but 700 gr available.
I do realize there is definitely a political agenda behind lead bullets if not for any other reason, they want to use tat to ban them.
But, finally, someone that has found some jacketed that’s not more expensive than factory rounds.
Thanks sturtyboy go the tip. Why is it so difficult to get this kind of information I wonder?
Thanks guys!

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Old 05-15-2018, 06:41 PM
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You didn't get the information you seek because it seemingly doesn't exist. He (generally) uses Zero jacketed bullets because Zero makes low-cost and bulk available jacketed bullets -- in popular sizes and weight that the masses use, and of course that doesn't include .500 S&W Magnum because folks don't plink with X-frames.

Zero doesn't make the magic, cheap bullet that you insist you must have.

If you sold your S&W .500 Magnum and bought a Model 10, you could buy many years worth of jacketed bullets and make your handloads for a pittance.

Every contributor to this discussion bends over to help but you seem no further along than you were in post #1. Can't say we haven't tried our best.
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Old 05-15-2018, 08:09 PM
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@Sevens,

I really do not understand why I caused hostility with you. I donít see where you believe you got no where... I did say I was going to take a second look at lead. And I donít recall saying the information doesnít exist.
Why, if this is common knowledge, did you not tell me about it??? I somehow rubbed you the wrong way and you pretty much went hostile from that point out. I believe it was was earlier on when I said something negative about lead. Not sure.
Anyway, you are wrong about people not plinking with X Frames. I have talked with dozens of people that do and use Ranier and Berryís to do it. Iím not wanting to be a part of an elite club that turns their nose up at cheap because of what frame S&W builds the gun on. I just wanted some guidance from people whom I thought would willingly give it because they remember how they once knew nothing and wanted help.
Thank you for what you did give and thank everyone else for all your help. I guess I just asked way too much and seemingly did not appreciate it.
I donít care much for going through this every time I ask a question. Iíll find another forum one day or build my own.
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Old 05-15-2018, 08:15 PM
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Did the dozens of people that you spoke to refuse to help? Where are they?
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Old 05-15-2018, 08:21 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sevens View Post
You are way, WAY off base in the health risks and concerns regarding lead and especially lead bullets. I could tell you how and why, but your mind seems made up. You should research this subject-- the education may be enlightening.
I asked my doctor about testing for lead ....he tells me " the dangers have been blown all out of proportion to the reality of it. Do you put them in your mouth? I said No "...he declined to do a test , called it unnecessary ! He told me "don't chew on or eat cast bullets and wash your hands after casting or shooting "...I'll go with the doctors advice .
Gary

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Old 05-15-2018, 08:53 PM
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BTW, the Missouri Bullet Co coated bullet I am talking about is a 400 grain hard cast Hi-Tek coated bullet and they have them listed for around $55 per 200 bullets. Not quite as cheap as the Ranier bullet but still loads cheaper than a Hornady or other jacketed bullet and they have a proper crimp groove on them too. And it looks like it would make a good hunting bullet too. Here is a link to the bullet for you. <<<LINK to .500 bullet>>>
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Old 05-15-2018, 09:15 PM
rpollard01 rpollard01 is offline
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@Sevens,
Please point out in my response that addressed only you where I said no one helped. In contrast to what you implied, I thanked everyone including you for their help.
If you donít like helping me out, you donít have to say a word. I still appreciate the useful information you gave but just like their were hostile responses when I first posted about buying one, Iím getting this same negative feedback from you. Still do not know why.
Is it because I would like to have an economical practice time at the range and am researching if anyone knows about such economical options. Or, could it be I was negative about lead poisoning. Thatís all I can come up with. Anyway, thanks for your help!
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Old 05-15-2018, 09:19 PM
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@muddocktor,

Awesome. Thanks for the pointer. For higher quality, thatís reasonably priced. Just calculated out to $.027 per round. Thatís the same price range as Berryís.

Excellent find!

Thanks!
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Old 05-15-2018, 09:21 PM
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You are absolutely welcome. I come to these pages to help AND to learn, apologies if you are finding hostility.

Please take heed to my post #9 about the construction of and abilitiy of low-cost bullets to handle the extreme pressure that the .500 S&W Magnum is capable of producing.
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Old 05-15-2018, 10:32 PM
rpollard01 rpollard01 is offline
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@Sevens,

Thank you!

The research I did before buying the 500 was intense and deep. I heavily research things like this. I knew that going from a 9mm to a S&W 500 Magnum was going to be a leap.
This forum helped guide me on the right path and with all the research I did, and with all the information I got from this forum, I made a great choice in the final 500 model I bought. It is the 3.5" PC and I love it.

I won't bore you with the details of how I went from the lowest recoil factory round to a pretty hot (1801 ft/s) round, but it was awesome!

I re-read your post and will heed your advice. I never meant to lead you to believe I was going to try to squeeze out enormous velocity out of these rounds. This was more so to get a 1500+ ft/s thrill and learn to reload a difficult to load round.

This part of your post
"I see no reason whatsoever to be concerned with what you see (or think you see) in a primer unless/until it is leaking.

Agree with mikld above that regardless of what Ranier says, these are not optimum bullets for a .500 S&W Magnum. They should be used for light target only... keeping in mind that at much lower speeds, you may find yourself needing to adjust sight elevation just to get them on target."

and especially the first sentence was extremely helpful. I was told by an RSO the primer was coming out to far and I should be cautious.

I completely agree... These bullets are NOT optimum for the 500. I knew that going into it. But, as I said, I want to practice reloading and make sure I have all the tools necessary and few rounds under my belt before taking on the heavy loads like I shot with the Magtech...

Thank you kindly!
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  #32  
Old 05-15-2018, 10:42 PM
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(1) Don't lick the bullets for flavor, maybe think about wearing some nitrile gloves while reloading, limit indoor range use, and wash your hands with cold water after shooting. Dose makes poison. Most of the people with adverse health conditions from lead exposure spent a lot of time in lead-soaked environments--professional rangemasters, for instance.

(2) If you want cheaper .500 Mags, cast lead is the way to go. But really, .500 is expensive to shoot, and there's no getting around that.

(3) I would suggest that focusing on crimp tightness ignores the other half of the equation--where the crimp is. If you start the crimp with the case mouth all the way at the top of the groove, the crimp is formed with an enormous empty space beneath it, allowing for bullet jump. Not that I'm actually convinced you have a bullet jump problem.

(4) I highly doubt that you have any sort of an issue with the primers. My .44s loaded with WLPs get a fairly "dished" look to them after firing, with everything from moderate to maximum loads. Protip: nobody blows more hot air than an old fart who hangs out at the range for free to minimum wage. These are the guys that couldn't get a job working at the gun shop for an at-cost gun a month.
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  #33  
Old 05-16-2018, 12:15 PM
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Anything in excess, even plain water, can be harmful/toxic/or poisonous to human beings. The lead exposure from shooting or casting is infinitesimal when compared to toxic levels. I was breathing more lead from LA air than I got from casting bullets...
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  #34  
Old 05-16-2018, 02:26 PM
rpollard01 rpollard01 is offline
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@Wise A,

(2) It sounds like cast lead or Hi-Tec cast rounds are he way to go. I am going to ry to sharpen my reloading skills by finishing up the Raniers. But will probably move to more solid rounds

(3) There is no crimp groove in these rounds. Itís all smooth or somewhat smooth surface.

(4) As one previous poster indicated, no need to worry about primers until I see signs of leaking. My idea of what I would look for is burnt powder out of the primer pocket. Is this correct?
Iím learning who to listen to. I take information and after thinking about it from my perspective, I turn outwards and reach out to others to see how far off base I am.

Thank you!
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  #35  
Old 05-16-2018, 02:33 PM
rpollard01 rpollard01 is offline
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@milkd,
Thatís why I have a whole house 2 stage water filtration System with an Reverse Osmosis drinking water filter. There are over 7000 chemicals/toxins, pharmaceutical drugs, etc in your drinking water. Not to mention chlorine which has been proven to cause cancer.
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  #36  
Old 05-17-2018, 04:12 AM
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rpollard01, you will see carbon around the rim of the primer and primer pocket if you start leaking at the primer pocket. And you also might see the firing pin indentation actually blown back out with overpressure rounds. If you have a reloading manual such as the Hornady book, they should have some clear pictures of overpressured cases that have leaking primer pockets to give you a visual reference of what to look for.
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Old 05-17-2018, 09:47 PM
rpollard01 rpollard01 is offline
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@muddocktor,
I do have the Hornady tenth edition. I will look for that. Good detail. I'v been doing this for 2+ years and am always learning more about reloading all the time.
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  #38  
Old 05-18-2018, 02:58 AM
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rpollard0, I didn't take the time to read all the arguing back & forth but to your original question:

I use, & prefer over Berry's, Rainier's 335gr plated bullets for the moderate loads I use at the indoor range. Rainier rates them to 1500fps & in my 500ES snubby that's not a concern. They're fine for "fun time" loads. Definitely go with sometime stronger for serious loads.

Since my loads are "reduced loads" I avoid the crimping issues/concerns mentioned by deep seating the bullet to the ogive & then taper crimping onto it. I've not had any problems with the bullets jumping crimp doing it this way & I've done it this way with several different brands of plated bullets using four or five different moderate speed powders.

You might want to back off that 31gr/2400 & start with 29grs & work up if using the deep seating I mentioned.

.

Here's a thread a started some time ago:
.
Range Fodder for the 500 S&amp;W : ACME, HSM &amp; RAINIER bullets

.
.



.
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  #39  
Old 05-18-2018, 12:38 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rpollard01 View Post
@milkd,
That’s why I have a whole house 2 stage water filtration System with an Reverse Osmosis drinking water filter. There are over 7000 chemicals/toxins, pharmaceutical drugs, etc in your drinking water. Not to mention chlorine which has been proven to cause cancer.
You missed the point; Anything, even water (filtered, bottled, spring, or Chetco River water) in excess is harmful...
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  #40  
Old 05-19-2018, 11:30 PM
rpollard01 rpollard01 is offline
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@BlueDot37,

Good information. Just talked with a fellow at our local gun store who has been reloading for 37 years and he said to try the taper crimp versus the roll crimp. I'm going to order the Hornady taper crimp as there aren't many choices for the 500 for taper crimping. I'm currently using the RCBS 3 die set with a roll crimp. His logic was there's more surface area of the case holding on to the bullet than with a roll crimp. Makes sense.
It appears you have taken it a step further and used the ogive to help hold it in.
The OAL I got of 2.070 from Ranier along with the min/max charges. I just saw a video from Gavintoob that said the Alliant 2400 powder can be used with reduced loads.
Sounds like solid advice.

Thanks!
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  #41  
Old 05-20-2018, 01:19 AM
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I use Hornady's TC die too & it does a fine job.

Yes, deep seating gives you more bullet-case tension & with plated bullets that's welcome.

If you don't deep seat to roughly my OAL", above, the taper crimp won't be forward of the ogive to give you the benefit you want.

2400 is a slow powder that's good for downloading. Slower powders, with plated bullets, don't burn well because you can't get enough of a crimp. Moderate speed powders like Power Pistol, Unique, LongShot or BlueDot do better in reduced loads with plated bullets, IMO. I save my 2400 powder for my 41 & 44 Mag loads.

.
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  #42  
Old 05-21-2018, 08:26 PM
rpollard01 rpollard01 is offline
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@BlueDot87,

Good info again. When you look at the labels one the powders I have yet to see them rate themselves as fast/slow/moderate burning. Is there a way to tell?
Also, I almost bought Longshot as it seemed to be more efficient since you use less powder for similar velocity. Less powder means more fun before going back to the reloading store. Unfortunately, Ranier did not have data for Longshot.

Thanks for all the knowledge and wisdom!
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  #43  
Old 05-22-2018, 02:36 AM
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Hodgdon Reloading on-line has LongShot data for the 500 S&W. They don't list Rainier's bullet but they have L-S load data for the Hornady 350gr XTP which is the probably the closest, most relatable manufacturer's reference you'll find.

Since you have the short barrel (3.5") revolver too you won't come close to their 10" bbl. velocity but I've never loaded over their starting load (21.0gr) for my max. with this bullet considering it's velocity limited plus you're deep seating it (1.965") a tad more than their COAL" of 1.985" listed.

I started at 17grs with this bullet & worked up in .5gr increments till I found a load I liked the most.

I began using L-S when you couldn't find Power Pistol, back during the powder shortage days. My only complaint with it is it leaves stubborn powder burn stains on the outside case mouth. It's less flashy than P-P. I've gone back to using P-P now that it's available.

Alliant/Speer has similar load data for P-P & a 350gr bullet.

Just a reminder, always DOUBLE CHECK the case fill before seating the bullet on reduced loads in large capacity cases like this. A double charge of these won't overfill the case (~75-90% fill) so you don't want to be careless & create a dangerous situation!
.
.

For me, using Alliant powders as a reference, anything below Unique (Bullseye thru Green Dot) on their burn chart is fast. Unique to Blue Dot is moderate speed powder. 2400 & above is slow powder. That's the way I categorize them anyway.

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Old 05-22-2018, 05:45 AM
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Didn't read all the posts but if you want to stop crimp creep send a 500 dummy round to Lee and for $29.00 they will send you back a Collet Factory Crimp Die.

I use the 350 grain Berry's Plated bullet along with the Speer, Sierra and Hornady 350s and even with H110 loads get no bullet creep...

As to fracturing the plating on plated bullets, I use a lot of .41 and 500 bullets from Berry's and crimp them very heavily and have zero problems at all. Also if you are only using a three die set and seating and crimping in the same stage, get a separate crimp die...

Bob

Last edited by SuperMan; 05-22-2018 at 05:46 AM.
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  #45  
Old 05-22-2018, 09:26 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rpollard01 View Post
@BlueDot87,

Good info again. When you look at the labels one the powders I have yet to see them rate themselves as fast/slow/moderate burning. Is there a way to tell?
Also, I almost bought Longshot as it seemed to be more efficient since you use less powder for similar velocity. Less powder means more fun before going back to the reloading store. Unfortunately, Ranier did not have data for Longshot.

Thanks for all the knowledge and wisdom!
Burn rate is just one of many properties of powder, it is NOT a guide to powder suitability or performance in a cartridge.

While learning stick with powders promoted and tested for your cartridge. Choose one that fills the case more than 50%- more case fill generally produces more consistent results.

It is not just double charges you want to avoid, it overcharging period, with the cross sectional area of the 500 it is near impossible to discern a 2 grain mistake by visual inspection and 2 grains of a fast powder can have disastrous results.

be safe
Ruggy
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  #46  
Old 05-22-2018, 09:01 PM
rpollard01 rpollard01 is offline
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@ruggyh,

Good advice. I have heard from many sources about when to use fast versus slow. It is one of the variables but appears to be something to consider depending on which bullet you use. At least according to Ranier and some other sources I've talked to about it.

I have caught 1 - 9mm double charge but haven't had an issue with overcharge. I could see overcharging if you don't pay attention to the scale and don't double and triple check it. Don't know other methods of overcharging unless something goes wrong with the powder measure.

The only way I reload after 2 years at it is following approved data. I'll either call, use the Hornady reloading books or get recipes from the manufacturer's web sites.
The only time I can say I will not follow either one of those 3 methods is the advice given from BlueDot37 and knowing the overall length recommended by Ranier was 2.070 and BlueDot37's recommendation of taper crimping to the ogive which seats it pretty deep, it make a whole lot of sense.
I assume the deeper you seat, given all other variables the same, it would increase the pressure a bit, but not sure???

Thanks!
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Old 05-22-2018, 09:04 PM
rpollard01 rpollard01 is offline
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@SuperMan,
I thought about that but at first thought that would be crazy to do if I decided to change bullets. Then, I would have to send them another seated bullet for another $30.
Then, thinking about it a bit, there's not much more choices than Berry's and Ranier for plinking and that would be at most 2 Lee Precision custom dies.

Thanks!
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Old 05-22-2018, 09:11 PM
rpollard01 rpollard01 is offline
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@BlueDot37,

I may could figure out some mathematical method to come up with load data for the 335 gr. bullet but as Ruggyh pointed out, I have only been reloading for 2 years and don't know if I'm experienced enough to come close enough. I could look at cases, primers and target to see if they were operating normal but still not 100% sure of myself.

Also, what you suggest with Longshot makes sense as well. I'm assuming Longshot is similar to 2400 in that it can be under charged???

Thanks!
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Old 05-23-2018, 12:12 AM
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All of the powders I mentioned can be downloaded to the point of sticking the bullet in the barrel because it's going too slow, unlike powders like H110/W296 which should be reserved for magnum loads, not reduced loads.

The deep seating will add a little more pressure than at a nominal length but these are big case & it has less affect than if you deep seated in a 9mm, 40S&W, or 45ACP, with these reduced charges.

Hodgon's LongShot data, & Alliant's/Speer's Power Pistol load data was obtained using a 350gr bullet. You're using a lighter 335gr bullet, so no real need to become a mathematician.

Hodgdon's starting L-S load (21.0gr) is listed at 41.4K psi. You're starting "reduced" load will be far below that. All the primers in my reduced loads have rounded corners & rounded firing pin strikes. All you have to do is compare a fired factory load's primer to the reduced load to see the difference.

Even when using Large Pistol primers, with these reduced loads of moderate speed powders, they will be rounded too.

If you start seeing something different you're doing something wrong with your reduced loads. Stop & resolve the issue.

.
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Old 05-23-2018, 08:44 PM
rpollard01 rpollard01 is offline
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@BlueDot37,

Sounds like reading primers like a pro comes with experience. I can read them some but don't know all the things to look for to tell whether what I'm doing is good or bad. I know that if I get powder burn leaks through the primer, it's over charged, or if the firing pin hits the primer and makes a oblong shape it may be a little hot. Also, of course a protruding primer is over charged.
May be off on some of those assessments but I got a feeling that's not all.
One of the things I recently learned in addition to the primers telling some information about the charge, is if the case has burn marks down the case, the charge may not be sufficient to expand the case and keep the powder from burning down the case.

Thanks!
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