Smith & Wesson Forum

Go Back   Smith & Wesson Forum > >


Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old 05-30-2018, 04:46 PM
Echo47 Echo47 is offline
Member
spotting brass fired from a machinegun? spotting brass fired from a machinegun? spotting brass fired from a machinegun? spotting brass fired from a machinegun? spotting brass fired from a machinegun?  
Join Date: Mar 2013
Location: Birmingham, MI
Posts: 84
Likes: 0
Liked 58 Times in 21 Posts
Default spotting brass fired from a machinegun?

At a recent gun show, a friend and I were looking at clear plastic zip lock bags of fired brass in various calibers.
I was checking out a bag of 7.62x51 LC brass when a guy behind me said, "don't buy that brass. it's been fired from machine guns."
He was gone before I had a chance to ask how he knew.
Can anyone tell me how brass fired from a full-auto weapon appears and the differences compared to single-shot brass fired from, say, a bolt gun or semi-auto M1-A rifle?
Echo47
Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old 05-30-2018, 04:52 PM
Trooperdan Trooperdan is online now
US Veteran
spotting brass fired from a machinegun? spotting brass fired from a machinegun? spotting brass fired from a machinegun? spotting brass fired from a machinegun? spotting brass fired from a machinegun?  
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Wellington FL Aberdeen NC
Posts: 1,195
Likes: 1,792
Liked 818 Times in 309 Posts
Default

It was a pretty safe bet... not many semi-auto guns in 7.62x51 in the army these days. Maybe a few M-14's as designated marksmen but by far, most if going to be fired in full-auto if from ther military.
__________________
Old paratrooper in NC
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old 05-30-2018, 04:56 PM
29aholic's Avatar
29aholic 29aholic is offline
Member
spotting brass fired from a machinegun? spotting brass fired from a machinegun? spotting brass fired from a machinegun? spotting brass fired from a machinegun? spotting brass fired from a machinegun?  
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Hermitage, MO
Posts: 5,784
Likes: 1,576
Liked 1,744 Times in 672 Posts
Default

Yeah pretty good chance if it is marked LC (for Lake City) it was shot out of an M60. Now if it is LC Match then chances are it was fired through a rifle.

Not a big deal really, might take a little more sizing and depending on your powder charge you might have to back off your load a little due to smaller case capacity.
__________________
C M Brier CPA, CIA, CFE
Reply With Quote
The Following User Likes This Post:
  #4  
Old 05-30-2018, 05:06 PM
colt_saa's Avatar
colt_saa colt_saa is offline
SWCA Member
spotting brass fired from a machinegun? spotting brass fired from a machinegun? spotting brass fired from a machinegun? spotting brass fired from a machinegun? spotting brass fired from a machinegun?  
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Cocoa Beach, Florida
Posts: 6,477
Likes: 415
Liked 8,683 Times in 2,669 Posts
Default

Unfortunately there is no single tell tale sign that will alert you to it coming from a rifle or machine gun.

Certain machine guns have very specific things that are left behind, others have none.
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old 05-30-2018, 05:30 PM
rwsmith's Avatar
rwsmith rwsmith is online now
Member
spotting brass fired from a machinegun? spotting brass fired from a machinegun? spotting brass fired from a machinegun? spotting brass fired from a machinegun? spotting brass fired from a machinegun?  
Join Date: Dec 2012
Location: (outside) Charleston, SC
Posts: 25,161
Likes: 30,191
Liked 21,689 Times in 10,565 Posts
Default Sometimes.....

Sometimes auto brass is dented or has heavy ejector scratches. Unless the integrity is compromised and the dents can be ironed out there's nothing wrong with it. If it's a valuable case you can put some effort into it and if you can get it to chamber you can fire form it for the final step if the cartridge will seal itself in the chamber.
__________________
"He was kinda funny lookin'"

Last edited by rwsmith; 05-30-2018 at 05:35 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old 05-30-2018, 06:17 PM
bigedp51 bigedp51 is offline
Member
spotting brass fired from a machinegun? spotting brass fired from a machinegun? spotting brass fired from a machinegun? spotting brass fired from a machinegun? spotting brass fired from a machinegun?  
Join Date: Jul 2011
Posts: 264
Likes: 5
Liked 199 Times in 113 Posts
Default

I buy bulk once fired Lake City 5.56 and 7.62 brass and size them once in a small base die to return the cases to minimum SAAMI dimension.

There are times in the past I had to size "some" 7.62 cases with a carbide .45 acp die or a 30-06 die to reduce the body diameter with less effort.

With the older M60 machine gun the case body diameter would expand more and the cases were hard to size in a standard full length die.

Bottom line, if it takes two hands to move the press handle you have fat machine gun brass. This is because Lake City brass is harder and the 7.62 cases are thicker.

Having said that I just finished full length resizing 300 Lake City 7.62 case with a small base die and I did it one handed,
Reply With Quote
The Following User Likes This Post:
  #7  
Old 05-30-2018, 08:46 PM
Nevada Ed's Avatar
Nevada Ed Nevada Ed is offline
Member
spotting brass fired from a machinegun? spotting brass fired from a machinegun? spotting brass fired from a machinegun? spotting brass fired from a machinegun? spotting brass fired from a machinegun?  
Join Date: Nov 2012
Location: Reno Nv
Posts: 6,791
Likes: 246
Liked 3,866 Times in 2,015 Posts
Default

Way back in the 60's when the M60 came out to replace the Browning 30 Cal.........

it was know to us as the .308 NATO round for the M60 and M14 rifle , in the Navy.

At best, I noticed "Belt marks" on the brass cases and that the firing pin marks
were not in the center of the primer, probably from not getting
seated properly in the chamber with the short time it had?

I have no idea what todays brass looks like, 55 years later....
but being hard GI cases, you have your work cut out ahead
of you, when going to resize it.

Even 9mm Milt. cases can be tough !!
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old 05-30-2018, 09:56 PM
Skeet 028 Skeet 028 is offline
Member
spotting brass fired from a machinegun? spotting brass fired from a machinegun? spotting brass fired from a machinegun? spotting brass fired from a machinegun? spotting brass fired from a machinegun?  
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Wyoming
Posts: 2,460
Likes: 1,031
Liked 2,126 Times in 972 Posts
Default

I was given some LC 308 shot from a mini gun. Very few would size enough to shoot from a bolt action....even with small base dies. I even have carbide dies. I have a friend with an Ishapore in 308. Some would chamber in it. I sold most for scrap. There was quite a lot of it.
Reply With Quote
The Following User Likes This Post:
  #9  
Old 05-30-2018, 11:33 PM
cololab's Avatar
cololab cololab is offline
Member
spotting brass fired from a machinegun? spotting brass fired from a machinegun? spotting brass fired from a machinegun? spotting brass fired from a machinegun? spotting brass fired from a machinegun?  
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: Colorado
Posts: 217
Likes: 93
Liked 120 Times in 71 Posts
Default

Many years ago I had less than a whole lot of fun trying to resize some 7.62 X 51 brass that came from the Army, was most likely fired in the M60, and was significantly expanded. I don't know if the cases fired in an FN 240 gun would be any easier to resize.
Reply With Quote
  #10  
Old 05-30-2018, 11:55 PM
carpriver's Avatar
carpriver carpriver is offline
US Veteran
spotting brass fired from a machinegun? spotting brass fired from a machinegun? spotting brass fired from a machinegun? spotting brass fired from a machinegun? spotting brass fired from a machinegun?  
Join Date: May 2012
Location: Upper peninsula of Michig
Posts: 3,786
Likes: 21,697
Liked 5,367 Times in 1,861 Posts
Default

I got a bunch of 7.62X51 lake city brass, it resized with effort, up trimming the primer hole was more work, I had maybe 50 out of 200 that had to primer pocket crimp trimmed twice. I am firing them in a M1a Springfield squad rifle.
__________________
Carpriver.
Reply With Quote
The Following User Likes This Post:
  #11  
Old 05-31-2018, 11:27 AM
Skeet 028 Skeet 028 is offline
Member
spotting brass fired from a machinegun? spotting brass fired from a machinegun? spotting brass fired from a machinegun? spotting brass fired from a machinegun? spotting brass fired from a machinegun?  
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Wyoming
Posts: 2,460
Likes: 1,031
Liked 2,126 Times in 972 Posts
Default

On the same vein..I have a bunch of 5.56 shot in M-16s. Came from a military range. Never loaded any...Is there any problem re-loading THAT brass? I have a couple of very large ammo cans full. I use a Giraud case trimmer and it trims after sizing. So...needs to be sized right
Reply With Quote
  #12  
Old 05-31-2018, 12:19 PM
amazingflapjack amazingflapjack is offline
US Veteran
spotting brass fired from a machinegun? spotting brass fired from a machinegun? spotting brass fired from a machinegun? spotting brass fired from a machinegun? spotting brass fired from a machinegun?  
Join Date: May 2010
Location: North Central Florida
Posts: 4,973
Likes: 18,234
Liked 4,433 Times in 1,945 Posts
Default

Had never heard or considered that-thanks.
Reply With Quote
  #13  
Old 05-31-2018, 12:30 PM
randyp's Avatar
randyp randyp is offline
Member
spotting brass fired from a machinegun? spotting brass fired from a machinegun? spotting brass fired from a machinegun? spotting brass fired from a machinegun? spotting brass fired from a machinegun?  
Join Date: Aug 2013
Location: North Texas
Posts: 62
Likes: 9
Liked 19 Times in 9 Posts
Default

No problem with the LC M16 brass. I did use a case gauge to insure they were sized properly without oversizing/overworking the brass.
Randy
Reply With Quote
The Following User Likes This Post:
  #14  
Old 05-31-2018, 12:35 PM
mikld's Avatar
mikld mikld is offline
Member
spotting brass fired from a machinegun? spotting brass fired from a machinegun? spotting brass fired from a machinegun? spotting brass fired from a machinegun? spotting brass fired from a machinegun?  
Join Date: May 2012
Location: S. Orygun
Posts: 1,360
Likes: 847
Liked 685 Times in 423 Posts
Default

Well, anonymous "information" at a gun show is much like internet info., who knows? If a person looking over your shoulder at a plastic bag of brass can see "machine gun fired" brass, he either is trying to be an expert, or he knows the vendor and where the vendor got his brass, IMO. If the expert can spot "machine gun fired brass" from behind you, you would surely be able to see something "off", even as a new reloader.....

The answers above site some obvious signs of what gun fired the brass (some machine gun brass has length wise flutes in the case body), and a quick question to the vendor may help...
Reply With Quote
The Following User Likes This Post:
  #15  
Old 05-31-2018, 02:09 PM
Skeet 028 Skeet 028 is offline
Member
spotting brass fired from a machinegun? spotting brass fired from a machinegun? spotting brass fired from a machinegun? spotting brass fired from a machinegun? spotting brass fired from a machinegun?  
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Wyoming
Posts: 2,460
Likes: 1,031
Liked 2,126 Times in 972 Posts
Default

Only problem with Military brass except for machine gun fired is swaging primer pockets except with NM brass of course
Reply With Quote
  #16  
Old 05-31-2018, 02:42 PM
growr growr is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Montana
Posts: 3,401
Likes: 1,644
Liked 2,317 Times in 955 Posts
Default

I fired many thousands of 7.62 Nato that was sent to the local salvage yard by DMRO....this was fired in M60's....never had a problem with anything...I sized them in my Dillon dies, never a problem, trimmed them, swaged the primer pockets with my Dillon 600 swager...

Although many admonished me to just scrap them as they were most certainly stretched to the point of breaking. Didn't happen...

This was in a SA Super Match M1A that I shot in NRA Service Rifle Matches.


Randy
Reply With Quote
The Following 2 Users Like Post:
  #17  
Old 05-31-2018, 03:16 PM
bigedp51 bigedp51 is offline
Member
spotting brass fired from a machinegun? spotting brass fired from a machinegun? spotting brass fired from a machinegun? spotting brass fired from a machinegun? spotting brass fired from a machinegun?  
Join Date: Jul 2011
Posts: 264
Likes: 5
Liked 199 Times in 113 Posts
Default

I use JP Enterprise case gauges after sizing Lake City 5.56 and 7.62 once fired brass. The diameter of these gauges is closer to minimum SAAMI dimensions. Meaning if the case fits in this gauge it will fit in any chamber.



As I stated in a previous post I just finished full length resizing 300 Lake City 7.62 once fired cases with a small base die. I then checked each case with the JP Enterprise case gauge and all the cases passed the plunk test.

The problem with once fired brass is after sizing the brass wants to "spring back" to its fired size. And if you pause for 4 to 5 seconds at the top of the ram stroke this greatly reduces brass spring back. And pausing will also make your shoulder location more uniform with normal reloads.

Below from left to right are a .223 Wilson and Dillon case gauge and on the far right is the JP Enterprise .223 gauge. And I reversed the cases to show how far the cases will drop into the gauge. And its clear to see the red JP Enterprise gauge is smaller in diameter.



Bottom line I lubed these once fired 7.62 cases with home made lube with lanolin and alcohol and had no problem sizing these cases. The cases were wet tumbled with SS media and any surface dirt and oxidation was removed.

And again if you have to use too much force sizing just use a 30-06 die or a carbide .45 acp die and they will size half of the case body. This will greatly reduce the sizing effort when you follow up with a normal .308 die. (double squeeze play)

I buy my once fired Lake City brass from brassbombers.com/ that has been cleaned and the primer pockets have been swaged.

.308/7.62 - Cleaned, Deprimed & Swaged - LC Only - 100 Pieces $20.00 free shipping
.308/7.62 Cleaned, Deprimed & Swaged Lake City Brass 100 Piece Sample

Last edited by bigedp51; 05-31-2018 at 03:20 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #18  
Old 05-31-2018, 03:38 PM
apollo99 apollo99 is offline
Member
spotting brass fired from a machinegun? spotting brass fired from a machinegun? spotting brass fired from a machinegun? spotting brass fired from a machinegun? spotting brass fired from a machinegun?  
Join Date: Jan 2016
Location: ARIZONA
Posts: 958
Likes: 92
Liked 1,338 Times in 568 Posts
Default

I have a friend who gives me all his LC 308 brass. It is all once fired through his M-60. It's actually pretty clean and except for the fact they are a little oversized from the generous M-60 chamber, I clean. size ,trim, de-crimp and load as usual. The only thing is the fact that they are nato brass and a little thicker walled than most commercial brass cases I use so I have to adjust my load data.
Reply With Quote
  #19  
Old 06-02-2018, 11:37 PM
Echo47 Echo47 is offline
Member
spotting brass fired from a machinegun? spotting brass fired from a machinegun? spotting brass fired from a machinegun? spotting brass fired from a machinegun? spotting brass fired from a machinegun?  
Join Date: Mar 2013
Location: Birmingham, MI
Posts: 84
Likes: 0
Liked 58 Times in 21 Posts
Default spotting brass fired from a machinegun

Guys!
As always, you have provided me a wealth of information and I thank you!
At issue which prompted the question was a dealer at a LGS selling bulk quantities of IVI (Canadian Valcartier Industries-a large ammunition supplier to the Canadian Military Services) 7.62x51 fired brass which had been acquired in LARGE bulk quantities and resold in 500 or 1000 piece quantities.
I HAD asked the dealer if the brass had been fired from full-auto weapons or 'single-shot' and he didn't have a clue.
With the suggestions offered in this thread, I am less concerned about the brass being fired full-auto as long as the dealer is offering a decent price for the brass.
Echo47
Reply With Quote
  #20  
Old 06-03-2018, 01:04 PM
SLT223 SLT223 is offline
Member
spotting brass fired from a machinegun?  
Join Date: Jan 2009
Posts: 2,416
Likes: 1,628
Liked 2,866 Times in 878 Posts
Default

Linked ammo typically wears the signature of the link rubbing the center section of the cartridge case.

Over on the subguns board some folks have noted very high failure rate in the form of case head separations when attempting to reload for the M60. This is brass fired from the 60, reloaded and fired again in the 60. The thought was loose chamber dimensions allowed for enough case stretch to significantly reduce case life. Maybe not such an issue if re-used in a tighter gun as growr experienced.
Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
WTS: Once fired .357 magnum brass, .223 brass, Remington shotgun stuff larrybrown Accessories/Misc - For Sale or Trade 0 08-26-2011 11:25 AM
WTS: Once fired .357 magnum brass, .223 brass, Remington shotgun stuff larrybrown Accessories/Misc - For Sale or Trade 0 05-23-2011 09:10 AM
WTS: Once fired .357 magnum brass, .223 brass, Remington shotgun stuff larrybrown Accessories/Misc - For Sale or Trade 2 10-19-2010 08:33 AM
WTS: Once fired .357 magnum brass, .223 brass, Remington shotgun stuff larrybrown Accessories/Misc - For Sale or Trade 0 07-30-2010 04:15 PM
WTS: Once fired .357 magnum brass, .223 brass, Remington shotgun stuff larrybrown Accessories/Misc - For Sale or Trade 2 11-06-2009 07:57 PM

Powered by vBadvanced CMPS v3.2.3
smith-wessonforum.com tested by Norton Internet Security smith-wessonforum.com tested by McAfee Internet Security

All times are GMT -4. The time now is 04:57 PM.


Search Engine Optimisation provided by DragonByte SEO v2.0.42 (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2018 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.
© S-W Forum, LLC 2000-2018
Smith-WessonForum.com is not affiliated with Smith & Wesson Holding Corporation (NASDAQ Global Select: SWHC)