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Old 06-07-2018, 04:58 PM
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Loading Mistake on 38-Special 158XTP instead of 125XTP w/HS6 Loading Mistake on 38-Special 158XTP instead of 125XTP w/HS6 Loading Mistake on 38-Special 158XTP instead of 125XTP w/HS6 Loading Mistake on 38-Special 158XTP instead of 125XTP w/HS6 Loading Mistake on 38-Special 158XTP instead of 125XTP w/HS6  
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Exclamation Loading Mistake on 38-Special 158XTP instead of 125XTP w/HS6

I have been reloading .357 with 158XTP and N105 all week (~500) and was finishing off the final 50 or so this morning, since my Lee Turret Press was already set up for just that. THAT went well... BUT, BUT, BUTT!

Then I was going to shift to loading ~100 38 Specials w/125XTP bullets... I tried to be meticulous to get it right, HOWEVER, after switching over to HS6 for the 38 Specials, I forgot to move the dang 158XTPs aside and open a new box of 125XTPs. They were on the bench already, and set aside for just that task. Pet peeve is that all the Hornady bullet boxes "look the same", same color same layout, etc., with only the grain size difference on an end label,... grr...rr...

ANYWAY, all said and done, I ended up loading 158XTPs in my 38 Special brass with WAY TOO MUCH powder of HS 6 for the weight of the bullets.
Target = 125XTP with 7.2gr of HS6
Result = 158XTP with 7.2gr of HS6

BIG MISTAKE: The max load for a 38 Special paired with HS6 and a 158XTP is 6.5gr. and THAT is at +P loads! I have 100 rounds of 38 Special with 7.2gr of HS6 that will/could blow my favorite 686 4in. up!

Currently I have a cheap Frankford Arsenal Impact Bullet Puller that I am SURE won't last long enough to pull 100 rounds, since it is at the bottom-feeding level of such pullers. SOOooooooo...

Question is:
What is the BEST (and most durable) bullet puller for this job?

Geez! At least I caught it before an Armageddon range incident! ... So help me out here... My cheap little plastic puller is NOT up for this job. I need a good puller that will allow me to salvage all components... bullet, powder, and case w/primer...
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Old 06-07-2018, 05:13 PM
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Loading Mistake on 38-Special 158XTP instead of 125XTP w/HS6 Loading Mistake on 38-Special 158XTP instead of 125XTP w/HS6 Loading Mistake on 38-Special 158XTP instead of 125XTP w/HS6 Loading Mistake on 38-Special 158XTP instead of 125XTP w/HS6 Loading Mistake on 38-Special 158XTP instead of 125XTP w/HS6  
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Would it be safe to fire the overloaded .38 specials in your .357 magnum revolver ?
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Old 06-07-2018, 05:17 PM
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Loading Mistake on 38-Special 158XTP instead of 125XTP w/HS6 Loading Mistake on 38-Special 158XTP instead of 125XTP w/HS6 Loading Mistake on 38-Special 158XTP instead of 125XTP w/HS6 Loading Mistake on 38-Special 158XTP instead of 125XTP w/HS6 Loading Mistake on 38-Special 158XTP instead of 125XTP w/HS6  
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A collet bullet puller is THE way to go. Much more civilized than an impact puller. They are not very expensive, and once you have the body, you only need to buy a collet of whatever size you want to do. The collets are a few bucks. The collet puller is used with a reloading press. A single stage press is handy, but can be used in a progressive too.

Last edited by Toolguy; 06-07-2018 at 05:19 PM.
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Old 06-07-2018, 05:22 PM
iouri iouri is offline
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Loading Mistake on 38-Special 158XTP instead of 125XTP w/HS6 Loading Mistake on 38-Special 158XTP instead of 125XTP w/HS6 Loading Mistake on 38-Special 158XTP instead of 125XTP w/HS6 Loading Mistake on 38-Special 158XTP instead of 125XTP w/HS6 Loading Mistake on 38-Special 158XTP instead of 125XTP w/HS6  
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I think your FA should do the job. I've been using it for years pulling rounds from 25ACP all the way to heavy crimped 500 Mag. Hodgdon says that 6.6gr is max for 38SP +P so I don't think shooting those would be a good idea even in 357 revolver.
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Old 06-07-2018, 05:23 PM
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Loading Mistake on 38-Special 158XTP instead of 125XTP w/HS6 Loading Mistake on 38-Special 158XTP instead of 125XTP w/HS6 Loading Mistake on 38-Special 158XTP instead of 125XTP w/HS6 Loading Mistake on 38-Special 158XTP instead of 125XTP w/HS6 Loading Mistake on 38-Special 158XTP instead of 125XTP w/HS6  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jimmyj View Post
Would it be safe to fire the overloaded .38 specials in your .357 magnum revolver ?
10% overcharge might be ok...

jimmyj, you want to try the first one...
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Old 06-07-2018, 05:41 PM
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Loading Mistake on 38-Special 158XTP instead of 125XTP w/HS6 Loading Mistake on 38-Special 158XTP instead of 125XTP w/HS6 Loading Mistake on 38-Special 158XTP instead of 125XTP w/HS6 Loading Mistake on 38-Special 158XTP instead of 125XTP w/HS6 Loading Mistake on 38-Special 158XTP instead of 125XTP w/HS6  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jimmyj View Post
Would it be safe to fire the overloaded .38 specials in your .357 magnum revolver ?
The current Hodgdon starting load for 158gr XTP in a .357 is 8.0gr...

Speer #8 (known for legendarily hot and potentially unsafe loads) lists the .38 SPL starting at 7.5 to a max of 8.5 with 158gr "Speer Soft Point" bullets.

Also, note that .38 SPL loads have become downright anemic over the years. Back in their heyday, .38 SPL +P loads regularly got into .357 speeds. That will wear guns out faster, especially older .38s, but is not a factor in a modern 357 designed for far more stress than a hot .38 +P.

So, personally I'd have no problem shooting that load in a 686.

Last edited by dr. mordo; 06-07-2018 at 05:43 PM.
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Old 06-07-2018, 05:49 PM
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Loading Mistake on 38-Special 158XTP instead of 125XTP w/HS6 Loading Mistake on 38-Special 158XTP instead of 125XTP w/HS6 Loading Mistake on 38-Special 158XTP instead of 125XTP w/HS6 Loading Mistake on 38-Special 158XTP instead of 125XTP w/HS6 Loading Mistake on 38-Special 158XTP instead of 125XTP w/HS6  
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Zero worries about using a .357 Magnum as the bullet puller. Great post above mine shows why, saved me the work of looking it up and posting it, thank you Dr. Mordo.

However!

What you did is an EGREGIOUS foul-up. I give you a thumbs-up for catching your error before the ammo left the load room, but the screw-up is still serious.

Pulling every one with a kinetic hammer-type puller will be work that is no manner of fun but it suits the screw-up and may help you remember this mistake and how serious it could be.

I vote kinetic puller!
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Old 06-07-2018, 05:54 PM
Calliope Calliope is offline
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Loading Mistake on 38-Special 158XTP instead of 125XTP w/HS6 Loading Mistake on 38-Special 158XTP instead of 125XTP w/HS6 Loading Mistake on 38-Special 158XTP instead of 125XTP w/HS6 Loading Mistake on 38-Special 158XTP instead of 125XTP w/HS6 Loading Mistake on 38-Special 158XTP instead of 125XTP w/HS6  
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No it's not safe to fire in a 357 revolver.
Once you're above the max in the loading data, you have no idea how much pressure you're generating.
You can't make assumptions about 38 special using 357 data. The longer 357 case would reduce the pressure greatly over the same load in a 38 spl case.
Substituting JSP data for JHP data is another assumption that shouldn't be made. JHPs are longer and sit deeper in the case.
As the OP noted, 6.5 is the current max.
Pull 'em.
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Old 06-07-2018, 06:15 PM
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Loading Mistake on 38-Special 158XTP instead of 125XTP w/HS6 Loading Mistake on 38-Special 158XTP instead of 125XTP w/HS6 Loading Mistake on 38-Special 158XTP instead of 125XTP w/HS6 Loading Mistake on 38-Special 158XTP instead of 125XTP w/HS6 Loading Mistake on 38-Special 158XTP instead of 125XTP w/HS6  
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I would probably work an hour overtime and buy some more bullets and throw those in a barrel and set on fire an watch the fire works at night. The Frankford should hold up if you don't mind spending 3 hours correcting that mistake. A 6 pack will make it go smoother and watching Family Guy. I have swelled two 357 cylinders since I started reloading in the 70s and it isn't worth the chance.

Last edited by 4barrel; 06-07-2018 at 06:25 PM.
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Old 06-07-2018, 06:29 PM
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It would be painless if fired in your .357 Magnum.


A long hard task with the inertia bullet puller but it should work without breaking
if you hit it on the correct surface.
I use a 25" 4x4 held between my knees.

If the bullets are crimped, you can try a few to see if you want to do 100..............

Good that you caught the error.
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Old 06-07-2018, 07:29 PM
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Question BEST collet bullet puller?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Toolguy View Post
A collet bullet puller is THE way to go. Much more civilized than an impact puller. They are not very expensive, and once you have the body, you only need to buy a collet of whatever size you want to do. The collets are a few bucks. The collet puller is used with a reloading press. A single stage press is handy, but can be used in a progressive too.
This is what I have found thus far:
Forster Collet Style Bullet Puller - MPN: BP1010
AND
Forster Collet Bullet Puller Collet 35 Cal (358 - MPN: bp2358

Not worried about the cost, more so about the wasted effort of beating a hammer to death... ;-) That effort does NOT tend to calm this old disabled vet down much to say the least...

BTW, I was wondering about getting screwed up switching 38Sp to 357Mag back and forth. Paranoid to say the least, but it has paid off. In the long run, I only have three basic reloads to worry about:
  1. My old 1953 Remington 722 #.222
  2. My .357 in my 686 and 627
  3. And my little 642 carry...
  4. My 22-Long Rifle is rim fire and just a nice plunker that doesn't count since it is not a reloader-type... ;-)
  5. PLUS, if I start choosing too damn many bullet weights/types, I'll get CORN-FUSED... Trying to simplify where I can, but have not done so yet... 8-(

My favorite round is the 158XTP for my handguns. I am "testing out" whether I will like the 125XTP and its faster FPS, or not. May be more trouble than its worth... Just don't know...
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Old 06-07-2018, 07:36 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 4barrel View Post
I would probably work an hour overtime and buy some more bullets and throw those in a barrel and set on fire an watch the fire works at night. The Frankford should hold up if you don't mind spending 3 hours correcting that mistake. A 6 pack will make it go smoother and watching Family Guy. I have swelled two 357 cylinders since I started reloading in the 70s and it isn't worth the chance.
Boy I understand THAT! My 686 is a NO-Dash that I bought new back in 1986, so I am really protective of this baby...

What really ticks me off is that the brass is NEW Starline Brass that has not even been fired at all! Ergh...
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Old 06-07-2018, 08:09 PM
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Loading Mistake on 38-Special 158XTP instead of 125XTP w/HS6 Loading Mistake on 38-Special 158XTP instead of 125XTP w/HS6 Loading Mistake on 38-Special 158XTP instead of 125XTP w/HS6 Loading Mistake on 38-Special 158XTP instead of 125XTP w/HS6 Loading Mistake on 38-Special 158XTP instead of 125XTP w/HS6  
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Shoot them in any .357 and you'll be fine. According to the Hodgdon's website using that exact same bullet in .357 the start is 8 grains and max is 9.5 grains. You are 10% below the starting load and 30% below the max load. Your gun doesn't know the difference between a +P+ .38 Special and a weak .357.

You need to be careful when reloading but a little common sense is also useful.

On a related - I'm pretty sure all bullet manufacturers use the exact same looking boxes for their wares.
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Old 06-07-2018, 08:28 PM
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Thumbs down Not correct

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Originally Posted by reddog81 View Post
Shoot them in any .357 and you'll be fine. According to the Hodgdon's website using that exact same bullet in .357 the start is 8 grains and max is 9.5 grains. You are 10% below the starting load and 30% below the max load. Your gun doesn't know the difference between a +P+ .38 Special and a weak .357.
You need to be careful when reloading but a little common sense is also useful.
On a related - I'm pretty sure all bullet manufacturers use the exact same looking boxes for their wares.
Please do not confuse my use of a .357 gun to shoot .38 Special cartridges. It is STILL a .38 Special cartridge, even when shot out of a .357 gun, and those 38 Special cartridge limitations are from 5.6gr to a max of 6.2gr, and at 7.2gr in a 38 Special cartridge it is WAY OVER the max limit. In other words it would produce way too much pressure during combustion, and quite possibly blow the cylinder, if not the barrel as well.
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Old 06-07-2018, 08:30 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jimmyj View Post
Would it be safe to fire the overloaded .38 specials in your .357 magnum revolver ?
My first thought EXACTLY. If you have a 357 revolver. Since 7.2gr is below the starting charge for 357 rounds, shoot them up.

Just be sure to put them in a box specially marked with a BIG RED disclaimer NOT to shoot them in a 38 special revolver.

They are right between the upper 38 +P and the lower 357 range, so they will be a pleasant target load. Who knows, you may have accidentally hit on a great accurate target load for your gun.

The only difference between the construction of the 38 special case and the 357 magnum case is that the 357 case is 1/8" longer. That 1/8" difference in case length/capacity is a non-issue IMO. It will raise pressure a tiny bit but you are so far below the pressure limits of the 357 cartridge it is irrelevant. The 357/38 case capacity is so large relative to the pressures it isn't anything like the 9mm where the case capacity is tiny and even a small reduction in case volume has a huge effect on pressure.

An eighth of and inch is a large reduction in case volume when the case volume below the bullet is only 1/2" deep to start with as it is with the 9mm. Not so much when the volume below the case is an inch like the 357/38 case - unless you are loading at the upper limit of the 357 range - which you aren't in this case.

Last edited by BC38; 06-07-2018 at 09:21 PM.
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Old 06-07-2018, 08:30 PM
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Here's a previous post that discusses HS-6 and .38 Special +P loading to duplicate the FBI load with 7gr (would .2gr and jacketed bullets increase the pressure into the danger zone?):

38 SPL +P and HS-6
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Old 06-07-2018, 09:15 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HorizontalMike View Post
Please do not confuse my use of a .357 gun to shoot .38 Special cartridges. It is STILL a .38 Special cartridge, even when shot out of a .357 gun, and those 38 Special cartridge limitations are from 5.6gr to a max of 6.2gr, and at 7.2gr in a 38 Special cartridge it is WAY OVER the max limit. In other words it would produce way too much pressure during combustion, and quite possibly blow the cylinder, if not the barrel as well.
LOL. The only difference between the cases is a 1/8 an inch of brass. How could an overpressure load blow up the barrel? Hopefully someone with quickloads can run this recipes through the program and show it's right around 22,000 to 25,000 PSI.
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Old 06-07-2018, 10:01 PM
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My friends, you have "stumbed" onto a wonderful "excuse" to buy a Ruger bolt action in 357! I dont know if they still make them, but now you have a reason to look for one. I should think you could feed them into any quality lever action in 357 also. Kyle
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Old 06-07-2018, 10:09 PM
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I once had to tear down 100 45 colt rounds that had a heavy crimp with a whakamole hammer.I spread it out over a year lol
you have my sympathies
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Old 06-07-2018, 10:46 PM
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I'm also in the shoot em' camp in a quality 357 Mag such as your 686. Like has already been said, it's a 10% lower charge than a starting load for 357 Mag and the 38 Special case only has around 10% less volume than a 357 Mag case. And I seem to remember reading somewhere that Starline uses the same thickness brass on 38 Special as 357 Mag. I would have no qualms whatsoever shooting them in any of my 357 pistols.

One thing I would definitely do though if you plan to shoot them is to mark the primer with a Sharpie or other permanent marker to make sure you don't confuse them with some other 38 Special ammo you have loaded correctly. I use different colored Sharpies to mark different loads when working up some ladders in rifle rounds myself and it makes it easy to tell what powder weight I am shooting.

If you plan to pull the bullets, I would recommend the CH/4D No. 402 Bullet Puller to have yourself a quality collet style bullet puller. I inherited mine when my Dad passed in 1994 and he had bought it back in the early to mid 60's. The present one is still the same design as the one I have and all new collets will fit my older one. And CH/4D have been around a long time and if you are a wildcat cartridge shooter, one of the go to places for wildcat reloading dies.

Finally, since you are shooting jacketed bullets, I would suggest that you look at the Zero Bullets 125 and 158 grain offerings. They are quite a bit cheaper than the Hornady bullets and they shoot well for me in my pistols and my Rossi lever carbine. Their distributor is Roze Distribution. I've shot several thousand of their bullets and have been fully satisfied with their bullets. And they are significantly cheaper than Hornady. Their .357 125 grain bullets sell for around $100 per thousand and the 158 grain bullets about $110 per thousand, with free shipping. I've only shot them at the range and not used them for hunting, so I can't say what their hunting performance is like, but they make great range bullets.
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Old 06-07-2018, 10:52 PM
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I'd shoot em in any .357mag, and not worry.
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Old 06-07-2018, 10:59 PM
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I don't have any HS-6, but this thread makes me really want to load 7.2gr of HS-6 under a 158gr jacketed bullet and fire it out of my 686.

I may pick up some HS-6 just to do this.
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Old 06-08-2018, 12:01 AM
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Years ago we'd shoot the then "MAX" load of hs-6/158gr jacketed hp's in snubnosed 38spl's.

Per hodgdon's 25th edition reloading manual

7.6gr hs-6 any 158gr/160gr bullet ='d 19,200cup
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Old 06-08-2018, 12:30 AM
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Perhaps you know someone with a Model 28 .....shoot them and start over.

Randy
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Old 06-08-2018, 12:40 AM
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I'd have no trepidation to shoot 'em up in a .357 Magnum revolver. It would be a non-event. One would benefit from the shooting practice much more than he would dealing with breaking the loads down.

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Old 06-08-2018, 05:01 PM
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Dang it, my LGS is out of HS-6.

But I did pick up an abused M30 snubbie for a decent price. Cleaning it up will be my weekend project.
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Old 06-08-2018, 05:41 PM
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I am with growr, a model 28 bullet puller is just the tool you need.
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Old 06-08-2018, 06:00 PM
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Not to get a old thread renewed , But , I will tell you that I have personally shot " the load " , 8.0 grs of HS-6 with a 158 gr bullet loaded in a 38 spl case . I fired these in a 357 ( 686) and they didn't seem really all that stout , compared to max 357 magnum loads . As a 38spl load , they were all you would ever want to shoot .
To shoot or not to shoot , it's up to you . But personally I would just shoot them , in a 357 . Regards, Paul
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Old 06-08-2018, 08:25 PM
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I thought "the Load" was with SR4756 powder ??
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Old 06-08-2018, 09:40 PM
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Multicolored gunpowder
Multicolored bullet boxes
Next thing will be writing “ read the manual before using” on guns. Ugly!!!

Stout bullet pulling revolvers in 357, 44 and 45/460 are a must..... and the Mrs bought new drapes, furniture and a diamond ........

Stay safe
Have fun
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Old 06-08-2018, 09:43 PM
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Nevada Ed , you are correct . It was with IMR SR 4756 . My error . Thanks for that . But I do stand by my original post , that I would just shoot them , in a 357 magnum pistol . Regards, Paul

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Old 06-08-2018, 09:45 PM
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If you want to break them down a piece of rr tie is great for the job. I would shoot them in a contender bbl chambered for 357 Mag or Max.
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Old 06-08-2018, 10:22 PM
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We all make mistakes..... late ‘60s .....Piper Cherokee 140 ...running up the engine to check the mag and it flutters and .... OMG!!!
First time I was cocky and did the preflight without reading my checklist..... fuel mixture setting ???
Read that list aloud before every flight after that.

Didn’t notice the “max speed in a dive sticker” until I exceeded it....

Reloading..... a 2nd Amendment responsibility!!!

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Old 06-09-2018, 04:31 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HorizontalMike View Post
Please do not confuse my use of a .357 gun to shoot .38 Special cartridges. It is STILL a .38 Special cartridge, even when shot out of a .357 gun, and those 38 Special cartridge limitations are from 5.6gr to a max of 6.2gr, and at 7.2gr in a 38 Special cartridge it is WAY OVER the max limit. In other words it would produce way too much pressure during combustion, and quite possibly blow the cylinder, if not the barrel as well.
Modern 38 Special brass is much stronger than is necessary for the loads it is called upon to contain. The reason 357 Magnum brass is 1/8" longer is not to create a case that can handle Magnum loads better, 357 Magnum brass is 1/8" longer to create a case that can not be unintentionally chambered in 38 Special revolvers

There is just no way that load would blow up a 686 cylinder. Your cylinder is simply not a possible point of catastrophic failure in this scenario

The pressure generated by your load is way below 357 Magnum proof levels let alone below 357 Magnum loading levels.

In a worst case scenario if you used 38 Special brass that has been reloaded many, many times might experience a case split, but that could also happen with 357 Magnum brass that has been reloaded many, many times

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Old 06-09-2018, 04:40 AM
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Originally Posted by HorizontalMike View Post
BTW, I was wondering about getting screwed up switching 38Sp to 357Mag back and forth. Paranoid to say the least, but it has paid off.
I just bought myself a second set of Lee dies and a extra tool head because I hate going through all that re-adjustment every time from 38->357->38->357->38->357 etc.
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Old 06-09-2018, 07:27 AM
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Mike, years ago when I had a 686 I shot some really hot loads through it, both 38s and 357s. Can't say it did any harm to the 686. That's a pretty stout pistol you have there. Good luck.
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Old 06-09-2018, 07:56 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by colt_saa View Post
I just bought myself a second set of Lee dies and a extra tool head because I hate going through all that re-adjustment every time from 38->357->38->357->38->357 etc.
I understand, though that is the reason for my reloading 500 rounds of 357 at a time. BTW, I have enough N105 (8lb) to reload my 357s for 5,000 rounds. Only have 4lb of HS6, but truly want to have 38 loads for my little carry 642. I only am using my 357 for working up proper loads for the 38. NOT interested in maximum loads at this point in my life, just steady and consistent fun...

And besides, this post has led to my ordering higher quality collet pullers for not only my 38/357 but ALSO for my Rem 222. And like you, bought another Lee 4-hole turret to mount them in for convenience. Much to be said about convenience
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Old 06-09-2018, 09:47 AM
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Sounds like a win/win situation to me.

You get to spend 8 hours pulling bullets and reflecting on what went wrong. And you get to learn about a new reloading tool.
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Old 06-09-2018, 01:32 PM
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Credit to you for admitting the mistake, so I'm not trying to beat up on you at all. One cardinal rule I've always followed is only the components you're using at the moment on the bench. I, too, think they'd be fine in your 686 but the right thing is to pull them and start over, as you're obviously doing. None of us are perfect.
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Old 06-10-2018, 12:42 AM
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HorizontalMike, like the others have said, those rounds are perfectly safe to shoot in your M686. The pressure generated by 7.2gr will not even approach the starting load for a .357 Magnum. I realize the cases are slightly shorter but pressure is pressure. You will do no harm at all to a .357 Magnum revolver capable of handling 35,000 psi or more. Don't let the case head stamp confuse you.

Thank you for your service and for joining the NRA.
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Old 06-10-2018, 09:19 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ArchAngelCD View Post
HorizontalMike, like the others have said, those rounds are perfectly safe to shoot in your M686. The pressure generated by 7.2gr will not even approach the starting load for a .357 Magnum. I realize the cases are slightly shorter but pressure is pressure. You will do no harm at all to a .357 Magnum revolver capable of handling 35,000 psi or more. Don't let the case head stamp confuse you.

Thank you or your service and for joining the NRA.
And that is what I am having trouble with. I am loading 38 brass to shoot in my 642, and not in my 686s. I have a Schmidt-load of powder and brass for my 357s, 5k or more rounds. I want and need 38 loads, and not even the +P variety.
After all, the 642 is my CC weapon of choice and I have the need to keep proficient with it. And the 642 is the only DA-ONLY that I currently own. My 357s are for the fun of it.
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Old 06-10-2018, 10:40 PM
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I hear what you're saying, I'm only saying instead of buying tools for a one time mistake just unload them by shooting them in your M686 and be done with it.
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Old 06-10-2018, 11:14 PM
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I hear what you're saying, I'm only saying instead of buying tools for a one time mistake just unload them by shooting them in your M686 and be done with it.
Ditto.

Unless I couldn't afford to replace the components, I'd rather replace them than waste all the I time spent loading them AND waste even more time breaking them down - just to invest even more time to reload them with the "right" powder charge.

If salvaging the components means more to you than the time you'll invest to do it, then by all means, break them down. I'd rather unload them the fun way & THEN load some new ones with the lower powder charge. But that's just me (and a few other people who've posted the same answer).

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Old 06-11-2018, 10:33 AM
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A couple of war stories along the same lines as the OP. Forty or so years ago, I used to load a lot of .44 Special with cast bullets, and one day in a gunshop I found a used Lyman mould number 429348 at a bargain. This is a flat nose wadcutter bullet. When I got it home, I looked up the bullet in the Lyman manual, where it said that it was a 180gr bullet when cast of Lyman #2 alloy, so I proceeded to load up 50 rounds with a powder charge appropriate for that weight. I don't recall now, but the powder was probably Unique. When I tested them at the range, I used 6 1/2" model 29, and the recoil was much heavier than I expected, so I did the research I should have done to begin with. I weighed the bullets I was using and found them to weigh 240 grains, not the 180 that I was expecting. More research into some older references showed the the same bullet had at one time been made in two different weights with the same mould number. I was just lucky that I did my test firing in the M29 rather than the triple lock target that I intended to use the load in.
The other tale involves the infamous Speer #8 manual. I did a little bowling pin shooting at one time, and wanted to try a .38 special. I found a load in the Speer manual for a 110gr JHP that called for 10gr of IMR 4756 powder with very good velocity, so I loaded some up and tried them on the pins, using a fairly new S&W M67. They did a good job on the pins with pretty stout recoil. It wasn't until some time later that I picked up a data sheet from DuPont for 4756 that showed that 10gr was a max load for a .357 mag., and far exceeded the pressure for a .38 Spl.
The fact that the M67 wasn't hurt just shows how much S&W over builds their modern guns.
My recommendation would be to pull the loads down. I think that an N frame S&W would digest them, but why take a chance on ruining a nice gun or getting hurt?
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Old 06-11-2018, 12:34 PM
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Regarding the Model 67 and the .357-rated load that you sent through it...

It has long been my THEORY (only a theory, no empirical data, zero evidence, no inside information and I didn't stay at a Holiday Inn Express last night) that modern K-frame .38 Special cylinders are no different than modern K-frame .357 Magnum cylinders except that they are slightly shorter and with shorter chambers.

Why?
Typical industrial manufacturing, process, stock and COSTS.

Production on a large scale... it makes far more sense for Smith & Wesson to basically have one part (a K-frame .357 cylinder) produced exactly the same way and then adapted for it's specific destination. In this case, there would obviously be two parts (carbon steel and stainless) but for Smith & Wesson to produce and stock a load of cylinders that are only appropriate and spec'd for the 18,500 PSI Max pressure of .38 Special+P all the while producing and stocking .357 Mag K-frame cylinders meant specifically for 35,000 PSI would not make sense in large scale production and it would likely cost them more money.

I'm not suggesting that we all take our Model 10's and build red-hot bombs for them, but my theory says that any Model 10, 14, 15, 64 or 67 is quite likely to be oblivious if you put ten boxes of ".357 loads stuffed in to .38 length brass" through them.

I believe the modern Model 24/624 .44 Special is built the same way, easily handling loads far beyond the anemic limit of .44 Special.
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Old 06-11-2018, 12:46 PM
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Skeetr57, don't take this wrong, but please explain what you see as the risk to shooting these loads in ANY 357 magnum revolver.

The charge that was loaded is just above or - right at the very top - of the range for 38 special +P (depending on which data source you use), and it is below the starting charge for 357 magnum regardless of what source you use.

38 special brass is no weaker than 357 brass.

The case volume of 38 special brass is no more than 10% less than 357 brass.

So what exactly is the chance of "ruining a nice gun or getting hurt" - as you see it?

I'm genuinely interested in understanding why you would go to the trouble to break them all down, because it makes no sense to me, given the facts. But I'm always open to learning something new.
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Old 06-11-2018, 12:59 PM
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Originally Posted by Sevens View Post
Regarding the Model 67 and the .357-rated load that you sent through it...

It has long been my THEORY (only a theory, no empirical data, zero evidence, no inside information and I didn't stay at a Holiday Inn Express last night) that modern K-frame .38 Special cylinders are no different than modern K-frame .357 Magnum cylinders except that they are slightly shorter and with shorter chambers.

Why?
Typical industrial manufacturing, process, stock and COSTS.

Production on a large scale... it makes far more sense for Smith & Wesson to basically have one part (a K-frame .357 cylinder) produced exactly the same way and then adapted for it's specific destination. In this case, there would obviously be two parts (carbon steel and stainless) but for Smith & Wesson to produce and stock a load of cylinders that are only appropriate and spec'd for the 18,500 PSI Max pressure of .38 Special+P all the while producing and stocking .357 Mag K-frame cylinders meant specifically for 35,000 PSI would not make sense in large scale production and it would likely cost them more money.

I'm not suggesting that we all take our Model 10's and build red-hot bombs for them, but my theory says that any Model 10, 14, 15, 64 or 67 is quite likely to be oblivious if you put ten boxes of ".357 loads stuffed in to .38 length brass" through them.

I believe the modern Model 24/624 .44 Special is built the same way, easily handling loads far beyond the anemic limit of .44 Special.
THIS makes sense. In addition to the additional expense and complexity of producing nearly identical cylinders with different heat treatments and strengths for the two different cartridges, there would also be the HUGE potential liability if a batch of 38 special cylinders ever got mistakenly used to build a bunch of 357 magnum revolvers.

It just makes no logical sense to believe that they would use separate processes and production lines to produce the cylinder blanks when it would be simpler, more cost effective, and would dramatically reduce potential for liability from mistakes to just make the all the 38 special and 357 magnum cylinders all from the same blanks and THEN machine them for the specific cartridge they will chamber.

Can anyone come up with some compelling reason or explanation why they would go to that kind of expense and risk to complicate their manufacturing process? If so I'd be really interested to read about it.

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Old 06-11-2018, 08:25 PM
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I've used the same kinetic bullet puller for 25+ years and it still hasn't broken - they're tougher than you would think at first sight.

If you want to avoid hammering 100 rounds, any collet style bullet puller should work for this job. I have the RCBS one simply because most of my equipment is RCBS and they really stand behind their products if there's a problem.

Good luck.
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Old 06-11-2018, 09:28 PM
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Hodgdon says that 6.6gr is max for 38SP +P so I don't think shooting those would be a good idea even in 357 revolver.
Hodgdon also states the maximum charge for 357 Magnum with a 158 grain XTP is 9.5 grains of HS-6. So, in a 38 special case the volume is a bit less than the 357 Magnum so that would tend to cause a more rapid rise in pressure and a bit higher pressure. However 7.2 grains is well below the listed maximum for 357 Magnum. IMO it would probably not be at all harmful to the 686 to shoot these loads, most likely they will behave a moderately mild 357 Magnum. Probably the only potential for a problem might be sticking cases or perhaps some split cases. Considering what Elmer Keith and others were doing with the 38 special back in the 1930's my hunch is that the cases won't actually be harmed at all.

However if you want to play it safe then just break them down. I once had about 300 round of 45 ACP get water logged in a corner of my baement that flooded due to a blocked downspout. Since I don't enjoy the thought of a Squib ruining a range day I broke all 300 down with a whack a mole bullet puller and it held up just fine. Fact is it's still in good shape 2 years later. BTW, only found 6 rounds with water in the powder but 6 is still too many, now I pay close attention to my downspouts in the Fall and the Spring.
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Old 06-11-2018, 09:34 PM
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Loading Mistake on 38-Special 158XTP instead of 125XTP w/HS6 Loading Mistake on 38-Special 158XTP instead of 125XTP w/HS6 Loading Mistake on 38-Special 158XTP instead of 125XTP w/HS6 Loading Mistake on 38-Special 158XTP instead of 125XTP w/HS6 Loading Mistake on 38-Special 158XTP instead of 125XTP w/HS6  
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FWIW, I broke down 260 rounds of 38 S&W using a kinetic puller last year.
BUT, that was because I got them as reloads at a gun show for $5, and I figured the bullets & brass were worth saving.
Resized the bullets to .358 and sold the primed brass for $20
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