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Old 06-20-2018, 04:16 PM
Angus46 Angus46 is offline
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Default Odd mark around bullet hole

Shooting a 40cal. With Berryís 180gr. Plated bullets over power pistol. Noticed some odd marks on the edges of the bullet holes that not quite sure how they got there. It didnít do it on each shot, but several of them.

Any thoughts?
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Old 06-20-2018, 04:25 PM
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Too much blue Sharpie???

Randy

Seriously, are you shooting into cardboard or free hanging paper targets? Can't tell from your picture.
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Old 06-20-2018, 04:32 PM
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Free hanging 1/2 size cardboard USPSA target at about 5 yds.
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Old 06-20-2018, 04:42 PM
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5 yards on a USPSA target......I would not be at all concerned.

Randy
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Old 06-20-2018, 06:23 PM
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Looks absolutely NORMAL to me.
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Old 06-20-2018, 06:33 PM
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As others - not sure what I'm looking at; looks normal to me.
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Old 06-20-2018, 06:41 PM
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As others - not sure what I'm looking at; looks normal to me.
The rectangle shaped lines perpendicular to several of the bullet holes. Iíve never seen that before.
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Old 06-20-2018, 06:49 PM
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The rectangle shaped lines perpendicular to several of the bullet holes. Iíve never seen that before.
I think it's called the "blue sharpie effect"
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Old 06-20-2018, 07:00 PM
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Berry's have pretty thin plating. Over crimp them & pieces can start flying off. Not uncommon to see shrapnel marks with bits of the plating sticking in the target, usual about 7-10y. Just guessing.
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Old 06-20-2018, 07:00 PM
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The rectangle shaped lines perpendicular to several of the bullet holes. Iíve never seen that before.
If it's not your sharpie I would speculate those are marks of plating coming off the bullet.
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Old 06-20-2018, 07:25 PM
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Default I THINK.....

I think that the bullet first hit at the start of each stripe and the paper gave way a bit and the tip skidded until the bullet actually penetrated the paper
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Old 06-20-2018, 08:21 PM
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Easy way to tell if the plating is coming off is to shoot @25 yards. If the groups hold good you are OK. If not it might be overcrimped.
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Old 06-20-2018, 08:37 PM
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EVIDENCE OF ALIEN PRESENCE. ANY CROP CIRCLES ON THE RANGE ? ? ?
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Old 06-20-2018, 11:16 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rwsmith View Post
I think that the bullet first hit at the start of each stripe and the paper gave way a bit and the tip skidded until the bullet actually penetrated the paper
That was my first thought too - until I noticed that the "stripes" don't all point in the same direction. If it was the target swinging from impact they would all point the same way.

Pretty much has to be a "petal" of the plating coming off the bullets. I bet the width matches up to the lands/grooves in the barrel...
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Old 06-21-2018, 12:17 AM
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There is no way those marks are from the jacket. Shrapnel? No way. C'mon... Really? Sorry but I strongly suspect your shooting buddy was marking the hits with a marker and didn't tell ya..
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Old 06-21-2018, 01:02 AM
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Default Squeeze juice

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Originally Posted by Angus46 View Post
The rectangle shaped lines perpendicular to several of the bullet holes. Iíve never seen that before.
It's blue Berry's juice. Totally normal.

.
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Old 06-21-2018, 04:12 AM
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Default One thing wrong with my theory...

It may be a mark from the tip of the bullet, but it's not lead since it's a plated bullet.

Trying laying the target on a flat surface and push the bullet across the paper to see if it will make a mark like that.
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Old 06-21-2018, 06:28 AM
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Are you loading ammo on a Dillon press?

I've melted bullet range scrap. The plating is usually an empty 'shell' with no lead inside. So I don't think its plating peeling off.
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Old 06-21-2018, 07:32 AM
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Aliens, it's gotta be aliens. The ones in my area are armed with black tipped Sharpies.

Have a blessed day,

Leon
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Old 06-21-2018, 08:29 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RGVshooter View Post
There is no way those marks are from the jacket. Shrapnel? No way. C'mon... Really? Sorry but I strongly suspect your shooting buddy was marking the hits with a marker and didn't tell ya..
I was the only one on the range. I did not measure them but they do look very close to the size of the rifleing.

What has me confused is they are plated bullets not jacketed. Just don’t know how they would get separated. From what I have found plating is aprox. .003 thick. When I crimp my loads I only just return the bell to straight and try to not squeeze the bullet.

Perhaps some of the cases were long and thus crimped the bullet more?

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Old 06-21-2018, 08:33 AM
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Looks normal to me!
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Old 06-21-2018, 09:16 AM
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My bullet holes in paper all show similar marks only mine are green. Green Sharpie that is. I'll shoot a group then mark those holes with green so I can tell where the next group will go.
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Old 06-21-2018, 10:59 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mtgianni View Post
Easy way to tell if the plating is coming off is to shoot @25 yards. If the groups hold good you are OK. If not it might be overcrimped.
Ime, even 15y will show horrible accuracy if the plating is starting to move off the bullet.
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Old 06-21-2018, 11:02 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Engineer1911 View Post
Are you loading ammo on a Dillon press?

I've melted bullet range scrap. The plating is usually an empty 'shell' with no lead inside. So I don't think its plating peeling off.
I have seen over crimped bullets litterally throw bits of plating into the target face at 7y. Not all plated bullets are the same. I am not saying that is what the op is experiencing, but plating spinning off a bullet when over crimped, certainly does happen.
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Old 06-21-2018, 11:43 AM
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EVIDENCE OF ALIEN PRESENCE. ANY CROP CIRCLES ON THE RANGE ? ? ?
Watching the Ancient Alien Shows on the history channel again?

With all the alien shows , Naked and Afraid and Swamp People...
who says there is no quality TV shows now days !

Throw in BattleBots and what more could you ask for !
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Old 06-21-2018, 09:58 PM
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Default I don't think they have to point.....

..in the same direction. It depends on which way the paper 'gave' when the bullet hit. It's a random thing. If the paper didn't 'give' at all, there's a straight hole with no mark..

PS Note that the color of the rings around every hole is the same as the 'skid marks'.
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Old 06-21-2018, 10:06 PM
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I've reloaded using Berry's bullets for 9mm, 40s&w and 357 magnum and I've never seen any unusual marks other than a bullet hole. Other than someone used a green marker or aliens, I can't explain the perfectly uniform green marks next to the bullet holes
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Old 06-21-2018, 10:28 PM
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If you're talking about the black marks around the edges, and you aren't used to seeing that, here's what it is:
These bullets are moving SLOWER or have a ROUNDER NOSE than your usual bullets. Faster moving, flatter nose (think wadcutters) make cleaner holes. At least in my lengthy reloading experience.
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Old 06-21-2018, 11:35 PM
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Old 06-22-2018, 05:40 PM
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EVIDENCE OF ALIEN PRESENCE. ANY CROP CIRCLES ON THE RANGE ? ? ?
Come on now!Can't be....everybody know that little men from the flying saucers are green...not blue!
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Old 06-22-2018, 07:05 PM
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You are worrying to much.
Jim
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Old 06-22-2018, 07:45 PM
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I would be more worried if the bullet didn't penetrate the paper!!!!!
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Old 06-22-2018, 07:53 PM
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I would be more worried if the bullet didn't penetrate the paper!!!!!
Yeah!and then bounce back at you!Happened once to me.God that hurts!
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Old 06-22-2018, 10:57 PM
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Angus— How hot are the loads and how tight is the crimp?
I also think they are plating separation.
Blue Smoke is a term when you send tiny bullets very very fast from jacket separation like an putting a 30g projectile in a 22-250
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Old 06-22-2018, 11:10 PM
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If the plating is only .003" thick, wouldn't the rifling cut through the plating leaving strips to Asher to the sides of the bullet. Then the spin could separate the plating strips. Just an idea.
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Old 06-22-2018, 11:38 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 3rdgeargrndrr View Post
Angusó How hot are the loads and how tight is the crimp?
I also think they are plating separation.
Blue Smoke is a term when you send tiny bullets very very fast from jacket separation like an putting a 30g projectile in a 22-250
OP was shooting 180gr in 40SW that would make it subsonic I'd guess
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Old 06-22-2018, 11:45 PM
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First thing I would do,is put the target on a solid backing and see if the phenomenon repeats itself. Also try lowering your charge a little to see if that helps? I assume a squeaky clean barrel?
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Old 06-22-2018, 11:52 PM
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Quote:
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OP was shooting 180gr in 40SW that would make it subsonic I'd guess
My post was confusing. Not saying he went double supersonic or anything. Just saying the plating could have sheared off and left a blue trace on the paper. Copper can have a patina from flame firing anywhere from red to blue .

There was an old joke with the Long range guys. A blue smoke round was purposefully loaded so when a buddy asks to shoot the gun, POOF! A bunch of blue smoke and a big act about blowing up the gun.
Sorry friday night. Johnnie Walker tells me my posts all make sense.
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Old 06-24-2018, 09:19 AM
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I've never seen those little comet tails with handgun bullets but they do pop up from time to time in some discussions on rifle loads. They are basically caused but bullet jacket failure when bullets with thin jackets are fired at a higher velocity or used in a bore with at faster twist rate than the bullet can withstand and the lead basically starts to spray out. It more noticeable at close range in rifles as the bullet usually degenerates at longer ranges.

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Old 07-12-2018, 05:06 PM
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Got some final answers, and solution to the odd marks. First off I asked a local reloading supply place Graf and Sons in St. Charles Mo. the guy first said he had never seen it either, then when I offered to show him the picture pretty much called me a liar and said I could do anything to a picture....I was stunned and after 35 years of going there, I’m done.

Also contacted Berry’s manufacturing through their website. I got an email back in a day or so and then they called on the phone. Like some on the thread have said he was certain it’s the plating coming off the lead core. The cause we had to determine. He indicated that over velocity or too tight of a crimp can cause problems with separation. I’m way under 1200 FPS so that was ruled out pretty quick. He had me pull a bullet and sent him pictures all looked good. Since I use range brass and dont trim the cases he had me do a test at my next range sesssion. It still occasionally happed with all the different case head-stamps. Then a I did some closer analysis the length of the marks are about the length of the base of the bullet. So it was the entire bearing area where the bullet engages the rifling, not a crimp issue.

Let Jason at Berry’s know the results of my testing and he asked I send him a few bullets to do some quality control tests on the bullets I had. So sent them his way took a while for them to get them via UPS and then they tested no abnormal results.

So he indicated they have seen this before although rarely with match quality barrels where the rifling and in some cases tight tolerances will cut through the plating, thus opening up a pedal of plating copper leaving the marks on the target, and of course at longer distances a pretty negative affect on accuracy. Solution, they have a thicker plated bullet and he gave me a deal on them for working with him. I was like great! Felt more like he was working with me to find out the problem. Very happy with their service and assistance. I’ve always liked Berry’s products now very happy with them. Graf and Sons on the other had.....I’ll never go back after being treated so negatively by a guy who was a total jerk.
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Old 07-12-2018, 07:57 PM
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Treated like Grafs treated you, I wouldn't go back either. That's just BS.
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Old 07-13-2018, 12:40 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Angus46 View Post
Got some final answers, and solution to the odd marks. First off I asked a local reloading supply place Graf and Sons in St. Charles Mo. the guy first said he had never seen it either, then when I offered to show him the picture pretty much called me a liar and said I could do anything to a picture....I was stunned and after 35 years of going there, Iím done.

Also contacted Berryís manufacturing through their website. I got an email back in a day or so and then they called on the phone. Like some on the thread have said he was certain itís the plating coming off the lead core. The cause we had to determine. He indicated that over velocity or too tight of a crimp can cause problems with separation. Iím way under 1200 FPS so that was ruled out pretty quick. He had me pull a bullet and sent him pictures all looked good. Since I use range brass and dont trim the cases he had me do a test at my next range sesssion. It still occasionally happed with all the different case head-stamps. Then a I did some closer analysis the length of the marks are about the length of the base of the bullet. So it was the entire bearing area where the bullet engages the rifling, not a crimp issue.

Let Jason at Berryís know the results of my testing and he asked I send him a few bullets to do some quality control tests on the bullets I had. So sent them his way took a while for them to get them via UPS and then they tested no abnormal results.

So he indicated they have seen this before although rarely with match quality barrels where the rifling and in some cases tight tolerances will cut through the plating, thus opening up a pedal of plating copper leaving the marks on the target, and of course at longer distances a pretty negative affect on accuracy. Solution, they have a thicker plated bullet and he gave me a deal on them for working with him. I was like great! Felt more like he was working with me to find out the problem. Very happy with their service and assistance. Iíve always liked Berryís products now very happy with them. Graf and Sons on the other had.....Iíll never go back after being treated so negatively by a guy who was a total jerk.
Unless the jerk at Graff was the owner, I wouldn't write them off over one negative interaction with one employee without first informing the owner. If the jerk WAS the owner then hasta la vista baby.
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