Some people don't like .38 special for Self Defense because Hollow Points may not expand or they view lighter bullets as having low penetration.
9mm however is deemed OK as 115 and 124 grain bullets are standard at 1100 to 1150 fps and 9mm operates at 35,000 psi. That's exactly where +P .38s run at lower pressure.

So looking at certain handload specs from Accurat, Alliant and Hodgdon, I see .38 +P at 1100 - 1200 for 110.grain and 125 grain out of a 4" barrel. At around 19,000 + psi. That's 9 mm velocity territory. (Factory .38 +P seems to be less than 1100), this while using the same bullet brand FTX XTP GoldDot Silvertip or whatever.

I think most people are shot wearing a t-shirt or thin shirt. Even wearing a Jacket thats
un-buttoned there is only thin material exposed.

Out of 2 inch guns .38 velocity may suffer some but out of 4 inch guns it is right up there. Factory +P lead hollow points were the self defense Magic Bullet in .38 for years before Hi Tec stuff came along and for some it is still THE bullet for 2 inch guns.

I was not thinking about these velocity comparisons before and am a little surprised at a good hot .38s potential when compared to standard 9mm Self Defense bullets.

your thoughts..

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US ARMY
Viet Nam 70-71

I survived three deadly force confrontations armed w/my issued .38 loaded with the FBI +P 158 grain hollow point (still readily available from many ammo companies). I know it works but can’t speak to the 9MM. I doubt NYPD would be carrying 9MM if it was sub par to the old revolver. If you like the nine find out what NYPD carries as an issued round and go get it.

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Old Cop
LEO (Ret.)

Check out the 130 grain Federal HST .38 Special +P.

.38 Special in the right hands, properly applied, will get the job of "self-defense" done just fine.

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Ad Astra Per Aspera

NYPD issues the 9mm Speer 124 grn +P Gold-Dot last I've heard.

38sp+p Is indeed right there with std pressure 9mm. Then again you can get 9mm +P & now you have moved on by a bit. All in factory ammo too. If all I had was a 38sp. then I woul dfeed it a good +P load.

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NRA Cert. Inst. IDPA CSO

This is actually a pretty interesting point. Federal 9BPLE, which is an older but respected 9mm +P+ LE round, launches a 115gr bullet at ~1300fps.

Hodgdon lists a 110gr XTP load that gets up to 1300+fps, and a 125gr XTP that gets up to 1228fps. Since modern reloading manuals are so tame, I'm sure you get load it even a bit hotter than that, which gets as hot, if not hotter, than any 9mm load.

What's also interesting about these loads is at those speeds the bullet will very likely expand well, and it approaches the classic 125gr .357 load. Also, if you could find 125gr LSWCHP, they'd be even faster and carry more energy to their target.

Very interesting!

The 9 operates more at or around 30k psi while the .38Spl+Pwill have working pressure more at or around 20k psi.Also,the fact that the 9 shoots from an unvented barrel gives it an edge compared to the revolver where the gap will run between .003 to .006''(sometimes more).This will contribute to bleed away some more precious psi from the revolver.
This being said,the .38Spl drags a dark and heavy reputation as a stopper like a 90 year old lady dragging a piano;poor stopper when using the 158gr lrn.With improved bullet shape,its performance goes up the ladder of efficiency.Bumping up its velocity out of the anemic 750 to 800fps factory loads with +P and heavier bullet(140 to 158gr)also contributes largely to put the .38 Spl in good company.
The fact that the revolver holds 6 rds compared to the s-auto multiple rds also makes a difference in the mind of many people.
I personally like the .38 better for its greater flexibility and,while not a LE officer,I think that if a guy can't get his problem fixed with 6,he probably won't in 10 or 15.

Being a physicist and a shooter, I don't believe in the "temporary cavity enhancement" with handguns, so don't worship at the altar of MV.
What I do believe in is the bullet crushing what it hits on the way through the body.
Having shot a LOT of critters with various loads and calibers, I believe:
1. No caliber will compensate for bad shooting
2. The "velocity advantage" of a 9mm in coyote-sized critter is a myth
3. The bullet needs to be heavy enough to penetrate, not blow up on ribs or shoulder
4. Muzzle Velocity may be glamorous, but Momentum makes the long hole

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Science plus Art

With similar bullets, and at velocities normal for the respective cartridges, not enough difference between them to worry about, in my opinion.

The 9X19 appears to be (at least on paper) somewhat superior with the lighter bullet weights (90-125 grains or so). The .38 Special offers superior performance (again, at least on paper) when the heavier bullets come into play (.38 Special has been commercially loaded with bullets up to 200 grains, the so-called "Super Police" load).

Performance "on paper" will always remain a theoretical (perhaps more appropriately a hypothetical) exercise. All I will suggest is that when penetration is required the heavier bullets will always be preferred, and shot placement trumps every other card in the deck.

Only one shot wins the gunfight, and that is the last shot fired. Walking away wounded and bloody always beats being carried away without a pulse.

Best be careful when taking the published velocities from powder companies as gospel. Those are typically determined in test barrels in universal receivers. The test barrels generally feature minimum spec chambers, headspace, bore and groove dimensions. This is a safe move from their perspective as it establishes a worst case situation so far as pressure is concerned. You are most unlikely to get the same velocity at the same powder charge in a production firearm.

Now, in days gone by, the 9 mm had an advantage in bullet design as the velocity range of the cartridge is pretty limited-a couple hundred foot seconds for any given bullet weight. By contrast, a .357 bullet can be used in .38 at a certain velocity and in a .357 at velocities maybe 50% higher. If the bullet would hold together in .357, it didn't expand in a .38.

Given a lot of today's bullets, that isn't true. I've found the Remington 125 gr SJHP expands quite well at .38+P velocites and at least the base portion stays together at .357 velocities. Same with the Sierra 125 JHP. Are you likely to get the FBIs preferred 12 " minimum penetration in a .357? No. Are they likely to be effective? Yes, if you don't hit an intermediate barrier.

You're gonna get adequate performance from similar bullets in either caliber. The most important part is where you put said bullet.

Both the 38 and 9mm have their place, however I will take a +P
3.5" 9mm over a 6" 38 Special, ANY day.

I have a 1 7/8" 38 and have shot a 3" 9mm, plus I shoot my S&W
686 6" with full +P 38 loads as standard loads for SD use.

A "Slow Bullet" will work if it hits its mark...... but will it, when
all the chips are on the table?

Good or bad, it is one reason some say two shots are a good thing.
You just have to be there, to see how things turn out.

I don't knock 38 fans. It works.

There was a thread recently where someone was making the case for a .32 auto being a viable defensive caliber. Compared to that, 38 Special is a real sledgehammer!

The Buffalo Bore 38 will take care of business if it hits where it’s supposed to hit.

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Just hanging with my dogs

That’s what I’m using in my 340PD.

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Old Cop
LEO (Ret.)

Personally, I think the 38 Special gets a bad reputation based on the bullets of yesteryear. Back when it was primarily loaded with a 158 grain lead round nose bullet, it was a poor stopper, as was the 124 grain 9mm FMJ round nose and the 45 ACP 230 grain FMJ round nose. Ball ammo penetrates deeply, but tends to not create large stretch cavities and it can and will pass completely through a body and not dump all of its energy into the body.

Early JHP bullets in the 38 Special were usually the same bullets used in the 357 Magnum. Those bullets were designed to expand at high velocity, but performed about the same as round nose bullets in the much slower 38 Special. The top performing 38 Special load was the FBI load, a very soft, swaged lead hollow point SWC. These bullets worked well at low velocity.

Today, we have jacketed bullets designed specifically to expand at 38 Special velocities. With loads such as the Speer Short Barrel 38 Special, I have little reason to doubt that rounds placed into the vital organs will penetrate deep enough without over penetrating and will expand to create a larger stretch and larger permanent cavity. I really think that these loads are comparable to modern 9mm ammo fired in a compact pistol.

Just my two cents on this subject.

^^^ Standsdds, the only exception I would take to your post is regarding the 45 ACP FMJ round nose. It remains near the very top of the list for one-shot stops.

Or so I've read!

Folks on this forum like Old Cop, who have "been there and done that," are the guys to listen too. Shot placement is what he said.

My wife and I were shooting with a guest at the local range, and she was just starting out with her shield. We "played" a little training game from the low ready position, in which we tried to place 2 shots in the kill zone on a thug shaped target in the shortest time. Wife shot first, kinda slow but very accurate and I was somewhat faster and accurate. Our guest shot about 3 times quicker than we did, problem was, he missed the entire target. One shot was low, and the second one was high above the head. He was embarrassed and rightly so, but the point made was, and still is, shot placement.

Have a blessed day,

Leon

Buffalo Bore makes a load for 38 Special that many describe as a "light" 357 Magnum getting up toward 500 ft lbs at muzzle. I don't think that can be done with very short case length of the 9mm. 4 inch barrel 475 ft lbs hitting close to 1200 ft per sec.

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Dr. B

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Ad Astra Per Aspera

Well, that's because all calibers can kill a body, but the 45 ACP also kills the soul. ;-)

Hooey!

Buffalo Bore
CCI Speer
Corbon
Federal
Remington
Super Vel
Underwood

Etc, etc, etc, ad nauseam

Thank you Mr. Colion Noir.

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Certified Curmudgeon

Seriously, nobody with a cursory knowlege of mathematics can conclude that 9mm is anything other than rimless .38 Special, or that .38 Special is amything other than a 9x19 with a rim. 2x usable case volume offsets 2x pressure. Using same weight projectiles they are virtually the same. Typically loaded with faster lighter bullets 9x19 has a better chance of expanding, but use those same bullets in a .38 Special, and it performs the same.

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Certified Curmudgeon

20,000 psi and 35,000 psi so no, the .38 Special +P will not match the velocity of the 9mm with the same bullet weights, but, velocity alone does not make a good SD ammo. I like the .38 Special and trust it more than the 9mm but that's just my opinion.

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Freedom is never free!!
SWCA #3437

Won't someone please post another ballistic gelatin report? Won't someone please quote another expert opinion? Won't someone please settle this old argument once and for all with definitive information from the most reliable sources?

Shot placement is the #1 consideration. Everything else is just repetition of wishful thinking.

Expanding bullets? Maybe they will, maybe they won't. Whether they do so or not means less than nothing unless they are placed on target.

Over-penetration? All that really means is that there are two wounds to allow bleeding to occur. (I'm not saying that any potential danger to others downrange should be ignored; all I am saying is that when the moment for self-defense occurs the first order of business is to eliminate the threat. Everything else is secondary to that imperative.).

Revolver or semi-automatic? Which can you handle best? Which can you consistently put the first round at the intended point of impact? Which can you follow up quickly with a second or third round accurately? Not to mention, will your high-cap semi-auto reliably feed, fire, extract, and eject your super high-tech ammo (which I'm sure is not what you regularly practice with, given today's ammo prices)? Will your pistol shoot your defensive ammo to the same point of impact as your practice ammo, using the same sight settings (very few will do so, and surprisingly few people seem to verify)?

Some folks seem to focus completely on technical details or "scientific studies", when what we are talking about is armed combat. When the time comes, if it ever does, the focus needs to be on the immediate need to put the bad guy down, quickly and completely. You can pray for his soul later if you like, but first things must come first. You can write up the incident for posterity, citing your choices of firearm, ammunition, and whatever (although you might want to discuss that with a competent civil defense attorney first), but first things must come first. After you have done the necessary you can sit around and debate the details endlessly, probably with some help from plaintiff's lawyers in the cheerful atmosphere of a courthouse.

Gunfights stop being fun the very first time.

Apparently, some of the boutique .38+P can equal 9MM. All things being equal though, state-of-the-art type ammunition etc., I'd prefer more velocity, rather than less. Whether .38 or 9mm.

Just to satisfy my own curiosity, I chronographed some .38+P and 9MM in S&W 2" revolvers. I've not yet come across any major manufacturer 38+P that equals or exceeds the velocity and energy of standard pressure 9MM in a similar bullet weight. I don't have my notes in front of me, but I think the fastest modern .38 125+P or 129+P I've tested in a 2" barrel averaged about 900 FPS. Even the standard pressure 9MM, in similar bullet weights, exceeded this velocity. I have used Buffalo Bore in other calibers, but haven't yet ordered any of their 38+P to test. I may get around to that in the near future.

Speaking of state-of-the-art type bullets, the Federal HST seems to be well thought of, having done well in gelatin tests. I had some 9MM 124 HST +P on hand and chronographed it in the 2" revolver. It averaged about 1200 FPS. As I mentioned, I don't have my notes in front of me, but I suspect I'm not more than about 5 FPS or so off the exact number. Perhaps 2" 38+P is equivalent to .357 6" in terminal ballistics? Or a punch by Mike Tyson to the solar Plexus wouldn't be affective, since the punch only created a temporary cavity?

BTW, I do agree that bullet placement trumps all else.

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NRA Life, COTEP 640

Only true if cases are same size. Its pounds per SQUARE INCH. Put a 110 grain bullet in a .38 case and in a 9x19 case you have close to 2.5x usable volume with the Special case. Choose your powder well and you can get greater velocity from the Special (17k not 20k +p) than the Parabellum.

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Certified Curmudgeon

I am a 38sp fan, it is my favorite round. I don't worry much about the ballistic differences between calibers. Just don't care that much, all of them seem to work.

But the difference I see where a 9mm fan does have some advantages is in capacity, and lower recoil for guns of the similar weight, and barrel length. Pocket 9's are also flatter than revolvers.

OK, now that is some BA-A-A-A-AD ammo!

yeah but I never really noticed the velocity and bullet combination until just the other day. As an example 9mm Gold Dot or XTP and +p 38 handload with the same bullet are almost identical.

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US ARMY
Viet Nam 70-71

I think the .38 Special whips 9mm, but then my chronograph screens may be warped. I like bullet weight and the .38 Special handles bullet weight well.

I don't see that much difference between a 9mm and a 38 Spl +P myself.
That being said, I do CC a 38 spl J frame/ 357 Magnum more then a 9mm.
As said, placement is paramount and think my M696 44 Spl has an edge over both!

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Only difference Fool/Mule-ears

While that may sound correct pressure is pressure and we are talking about internal ballistics, not the effect on the case surface.

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Freedom is never free!!
SWCA #3437

If Federal can make a 147gr 9mm expand at 950fps, they can do the same for 38sp. It is the 21st century though & fewer people rely on 38sp today.

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NRA Cert. Inst. IDPA CSO

Whip, hardly. They are virtually twins; 158gr lswchp @ 950fps or 147gr at 950fps. Only diff is most 9mm jhp are better designed.

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NRA Cert. Inst. IDPA CSO

Not to disagree w Old cop, but many times equipment choices (even guns) are not made by experts in the field. In my tenure as a civil service employee only about 10% of the purchases, even safety equipment, were made with the end user's opinions considered. Maybe the NYPD's purchasing dept./upper echelon LEOs wanted to stay "PC", money was a consideration, or "other PDs are doing it" (and God forbid, under the table payments). Not saying this is the case specifically with the NYPD, but it happens in areas where equipment is purchased by those that won't be using it in the field...

Coke vs. Pepsi, Ginger vs. Mary Ann, Ford vs. Chevy etc. etc.

back in the early 80s my dad and mom moved a couple hundred miles away, before he left I gave him a box of my handloads, at the time it was 140gr. speer hp. with 8.4gr. of bluedot for his model 15 one night he had an large intruder on drugs kick down the front door. he shot him in the leg. he collapsed instantly on the floor. the 38 works,,,,,,,,,,,

Easy, Coke, Ginger, Chevy

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Time wounds all heels

Pressure is pressure. And in this case SAAMI measures it in "Pounds Per Square Inch". So 17k PSI in a 10cc space is Equal to 34k PSI in a 5cc space and MORE than 35k PSI in a 4cc space.

It's simple to think about in terms of a very fast propellant that has a 100 percent burn inside the case at ignition. But another advantage of the larger case is that you can use bulkier slower burning propellants.

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Certified Curmudgeon

SAAMI diameters for .38 Special and 9x19 are the Same (Lands, Grooves, Bullet) if those bullets are the same weight and composition thier lengths are quite similar indeed. Because most 9x19 rounds feed from a magazine to a chamber thier OUTSIDE curvature and crimping are design criteria insignificant for .38 Special. Most of the revolver HP ammo I have seen has larger metplats and cavities than same weight semi auto HP ammo.

And while Velocity is a "sexy" measure, it comes and GOES fast. Momentum is what drives the bullet to penetrate deeply. Momentum is aided by bullet weight.

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Certified Curmudgeon

This is correct^^^^

Ballistics by the inch, look at the 38spl/9mm/357
BBTI - Ballistics by the Inch :: Results

The 9mm & 357 have the same operating pressure but the 357 smokes the 9mm. WHY??? Same pressure just more of it (larger can/case volume/13" tire vs 17" tire/etc).

As stated above the 38spl holds it's own because of not the higher pressure, simply more of it that lasts for longer duration's. This is why the 9mm excels in short bbls compared to the 38spl's. Longer bbl's equal the playing field.

I have 10" bbls for a contender chambered in:
9mm
38spl
357
Even though the 357 has the longest chamber/shortest usable bbl. It easily out performs the 9mm & 38spl bbl's with any bullet weight.

Others have posted well above. FWIW, my own outlook is that they are both cartridges throwing .36 caliber bullets, therefore not all that hard to compare. Interior ballistics (pressure, case capacity and the like), are invenereal. Muzzle velocity and bullet choice are the main variables. It appears that they are similar, except that 9mm bullets tend not to weigh more than 147gr, and it is often easier to find higher-velocity 125gr loadings in 9mm than in .38 Spl. Given that folks who shoot the heaviest bullets (usually 158gr) are often trying to make them expand, I'm not sure that .38Spl has a significant advantage over 9mm even if one believes (as I usually do) that SD is a really important measurement of ammunition performance.

Erich posted definitively on this subject perhaps a decade ago. A search based on "angels dancing on the head of a pin" would probably yield the wisdom of his pronouncement.

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Formerly Model520Fan

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Ad Astra Per Aspera

All handgun calibers suck. Shot placement is key. Any modern expanding self defense ammo will do as long as you do your job. Carry what you are proficient with.

Coke, Mary Ann, Ford.

Nothing could be further from the truth/reality.

(invenerial, not invenereal)
invenerial ='s not important
invenereal ='s having sex with a 9mm catridge

It's the amount of pressure and the duration of the pressure that counts.

You can get the same pressure from a max load of bullseye as you can bluedot. But yet the bluedot will have a higher velocity every time because it burns slower/longer/sustains the high pressure longer/larger volume of high pressure.

We should get together and do a test:
I'll fill a wheelbarrow tire up to 100psi and have it explode with me being within 2"'s of it. You fill a 35/12.5/20 mud tire to a off-road jeep up to 100psi and have it explode with you being within 2"'s of it.

Same "invenereal" 100psi pressure. Just a little difference in the "invenereal" tire (case) capacity. I will easily walk away. You on the other hand stand a good chance of damaging your "invenereal" valve stem.

A lot of words, dealing, for some reason, with two different kinds of tires rather than .355-8" bullets, but the bullet and its velocity are what affect the body impacted, not what pressure produced the event. Furthermore, velocity isn't all that hard to measure, whereas pressure is, and still won't tell you much about terminal velocity, which is what counts.

"Invenereal" is the correct word for what I intended to convey. Perhaps it doesn't bug you, but if you are interested in the definition and entomology of the word, feel free to PM me.

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Formerly Model520Fan