Smith & Wesson Forum

Go Back   Smith & Wesson Forum > >


Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old 07-12-2018, 02:39 PM
HorizontalMike's Avatar
HorizontalMike HorizontalMike is online now
US Veteran
HS6 Powder TOO Slow For SNUBBY? HS6 Powder TOO Slow For SNUBBY? HS6 Powder TOO Slow For SNUBBY? HS6 Powder TOO Slow For SNUBBY? HS6 Powder TOO Slow For SNUBBY?  
Join Date: Nov 2013
Location: South Central Texas
Posts: 480
Likes: 655
Liked 381 Times in 181 Posts
Question HS6 Powder TOO Slow For SNUBBY?

I have been working up a 125xtp load for my 642 2in. using HS6 powder. I have been using my 4in 686 as my load testing gun. I thought I was doing just fine, that is until I tried to chronograph this 125xtp 38+P load in my little 642 snubby.

I know/understand that nearly all reloading books use long barrels in order to maximize FPM. Personally, I do not know of any "Snubby Reloading Manuals" (please post me a link if such exists).

I have attached a screen shot of five strings I ran this morning using my 38 workup loads, both 38 and 38+P. The first four strings are of 38+P loads and the last two are my standard 38 load. Both are for 125xtp bullets.

I thought the results were a fluke, as I had had similar problems recording/chronographing 125xtp yesterday as well. Thought maybe I didn't get the chrono set up properly (too much sun, fluorescent lamps, etc) , so today I set up the chrono with the powered diffuser light, turned of my overhead Fl tubes, and made sure the chrono was further into the shop and away from the sun's glare.

I still got a big FAIL when trying to test these loads on my 2in snubby. When using my 4in 686 and my 2.62in 627PC, I got solid numbers.

Please take a look below, and share your thoughts...
Attached Thumbnails
HS6 Powder TOO Slow For SNUBBY?-snubby-fail-hs6-38-p-jpg  
Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old 07-12-2018, 03:03 PM
Nevada Ed's Avatar
Nevada Ed Nevada Ed is offline
Member
HS6 Powder TOO Slow For SNUBBY? HS6 Powder TOO Slow For SNUBBY? HS6 Powder TOO Slow For SNUBBY? HS6 Powder TOO Slow For SNUBBY? HS6 Powder TOO Slow For SNUBBY?  
Join Date: Nov 2012
Location: Reno Nv
Posts: 6,726
Likes: 234
Liked 3,815 Times in 1,986 Posts
Default

First off, HS6 with a 125 xtp was accurate in my 686 6"........

6" barrel standard load at 1037fps.
2" M49 standard load came out at 867fps.

CFE at 862fps, w231 at 840, Unique at 870fps for standard loads.
With a full load 800-x, Red & Green Dot and Unique powders can reach 900fps in my snub nose.
However, even with this high fps, I do not use this weigh/style of
bullet for my SD use in the M49.
I did like the accuracy when one full grain less than my maximum loading.
Good shooting.
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old 07-12-2018, 03:22 PM
Eddietruett Eddietruett is offline
Member
HS6 Powder TOO Slow For SNUBBY? HS6 Powder TOO Slow For SNUBBY? HS6 Powder TOO Slow For SNUBBY? HS6 Powder TOO Slow For SNUBBY? HS6 Powder TOO Slow For SNUBBY?  
Join Date: Dec 2016
Location: South Carolina
Posts: 541
Likes: 217
Liked 860 Times in 286 Posts
Default

Speer has some loading data on their website with .38 loads out of a 2 mod 15 and .357 out of a 2.5 mod 19 if I remember correctly
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old 07-12-2018, 04:18 PM
rockquarry rockquarry is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Posts: 1,458
Likes: 2
Liked 1,070 Times in 596 Posts
Default

Have you experimented with the distance you have your screens set at? With a snub nose gun, that could make a difference.

Like Power Pistol, I've found HS-6 to be a great powder, capable of good accuracy and velocity, but within a pretty narrow spectrum in comparison with other powders as for versatility. Magnum primers are usually recommended with HS-6. I've compared standard and magnum and could see little if any difference in velocity or accuracy.

This is based on personal experience only; no links.
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old 07-12-2018, 04:37 PM
joe44va's Avatar
joe44va joe44va is offline
Member
HS6 Powder TOO Slow For SNUBBY? HS6 Powder TOO Slow For SNUBBY? HS6 Powder TOO Slow For SNUBBY? HS6 Powder TOO Slow For SNUBBY? HS6 Powder TOO Slow For SNUBBY?  
Join Date: Oct 2014
Location: Central VA
Posts: 1,020
Likes: 1,501
Liked 1,300 Times in 508 Posts
Default

Cool.
I guessing that a 2" barrel with light bullets doesn't allow enough time for full pressure to develop so all the powder doesn't ignite. Any powder left in the cases or elsewhere? In essence, the powder is too slow.
__________________
Trying doesn't count.
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old 07-12-2018, 05:15 PM
muddocktor's Avatar
muddocktor muddocktor is online now
Member
HS6 Powder TOO Slow For SNUBBY? HS6 Powder TOO Slow For SNUBBY? HS6 Powder TOO Slow For SNUBBY? HS6 Powder TOO Slow For SNUBBY? HS6 Powder TOO Slow For SNUBBY?  
Join Date: Oct 2014
Location: South Louisiana
Posts: 2,927
Likes: 5,428
Liked 3,771 Times in 1,492 Posts
Default

You are getting interference from unburned powder crossing the chrono. If you back off another yard or so it might clear up. I have had the same thing happen with me before; it gave way abnormally low numbers. Moving my chrono out another yard or so stopped the interference in my case.
Reply With Quote
The Following 6 Users Like Post:
  #7  
Old 07-12-2018, 08:53 PM
HKSmith HKSmith is offline
SWCA Member
HS6 Powder TOO Slow For SNUBBY?  
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Ohio
Posts: 517
Likes: 206
Liked 296 Times in 134 Posts
Default

I think Muddocktor is on the right track with his suggestion above. If some of the OP's loads were in the 200 ft/sec range they would have less recoil than a .22 LR round, which the OP didn't mention. Also, the Speer manual has data for 2 inch barrel .38 Special and +P loads, some of them using VV 3N37, which is a slower powder than HS6. Generally the fastest loads in snubbies are the same as the fastest loads in longer barreled guns (with lower velocity, of course).
Reply With Quote
The Following User Likes This Post:
  #8  
Old 07-13-2018, 06:34 AM
HorizontalMike's Avatar
HorizontalMike HorizontalMike is online now
US Veteran
HS6 Powder TOO Slow For SNUBBY? HS6 Powder TOO Slow For SNUBBY? HS6 Powder TOO Slow For SNUBBY? HS6 Powder TOO Slow For SNUBBY? HS6 Powder TOO Slow For SNUBBY?  
Join Date: Nov 2013
Location: South Central Texas
Posts: 480
Likes: 655
Liked 381 Times in 181 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by muddocktor View Post
You are getting interference from unburned powder crossing the chrono. If you back off another yard or so it might clear up. I have had the same thing happen with me before; it gave way abnormally low numbers. Moving my chrono out another yard or so stopped the interference in my case.
I actually did back off to about 3-1/2 to 4yd from the chrono, just to see if that was a/the problem. Not clear, but string #5 results may be indicative of such interference. Four of the ten shots were <200fps while the other six shots much higher, with Hi=907fps. Plus, the very first shot in string #2 registered at 978fps! So... maybe...

As far as un-burnt powder on the concrete floor, I didn't really see any, after sweeping and collecting in a dustpan. What I did find was plenty of very fine burnt greenish-black powder remnants. The sound of ALL rounds going off seemed to be the same to me (w/earmuffs).

Also, now thinking/wondering aloud, if a 2in 125xtp snubby MAX is something more like 7.0gr of HS6...? I think I'll work up some @7.0gr and actually test them in a 2in snubby. First though, I still have a box of these loads so I'll back off to at least +5yd from the chrono and see. Both my snubs are DA-only so I need to fire slowly and accurately...

Don't really need 38+P loads for my 4in 686, since I'm getting ~1400fps with my 8lb of N105 in .357 158xtp. What I do not know and would like to see, is penetration & expansion tests related to the 125xtp @1,000fps. Maybe that would be a "safer" SD load in a crowded mall (more expansion with less penetration)...?
Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old 07-13-2018, 06:45 AM
scooter123 scooter123 is online now
Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Metro Detroit, Michigan
Posts: 6,320
Likes: 154
Liked 3,326 Times in 1,699 Posts
Default

If you are using a Shooting Chrony chronograph the position of the bullet through the screens can also have a big effect on the results. Had to learn this lesson by basic experiments because it's NEVER mentioned in the manual but the bullet need to pass over the sensors at an elevation dead even with the brass rings that join the diffuser support rods. Any higher or lower and you'll see some really flaky results. Add in powder debris being picked up by the screens and the end result could be what you have observed.
Reply With Quote
  #10  
Old 07-13-2018, 07:16 AM
HorizontalMike's Avatar
HorizontalMike HorizontalMike is online now
US Veteran
HS6 Powder TOO Slow For SNUBBY? HS6 Powder TOO Slow For SNUBBY? HS6 Powder TOO Slow For SNUBBY? HS6 Powder TOO Slow For SNUBBY? HS6 Powder TOO Slow For SNUBBY?  
Join Date: Nov 2013
Location: South Central Texas
Posts: 480
Likes: 655
Liked 381 Times in 181 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by rockquarry View Post
...[snip]... Magnum primers are usually recommended with HS-6. I've compared standard and magnum and could see little if any difference in velocity or accuracy.

This is based on personal experience only; no links.
Yes, I am using CCI#550 Magnum primers... forgot to mention that...
Reply With Quote
  #11  
Old 07-13-2018, 08:59 AM
WR Moore WR Moore is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Posts: 3,342
Likes: 121
Liked 1,405 Times in 812 Posts
Default

OK, the standard distance for chronograph work is 15 feet, muzzle to center of the screens. Closer than that, you run the risk of the muzzle blast/particulates triggering the start of timing.

You're also having problems with your basic setup. Most instructions for skyscreens/optical sensors specify NOT to use fluorescent lights. The flickering of the lights can throw the sensors off. The best way to clock loads is in bright sunlight with the use of diffusers. It's also a good idea to check your setup with .22 lr. before testing. Velocities from a rifle should run 1100-1200 f/s.

Your velocities are similar to what I get with Power Pistol in the 4 inch barrel, but PP seems to have less variation than you display.

Last edited by WR Moore; 07-13-2018 at 09:04 AM.
Reply With Quote
The Following User Likes This Post:
  #12  
Old 07-13-2018, 10:10 AM
ArchAngelCD's Avatar
ArchAngelCD ArchAngelCD is offline
Member
HS6 Powder TOO Slow For SNUBBY? HS6 Powder TOO Slow For SNUBBY? HS6 Powder TOO Slow For SNUBBY? HS6 Powder TOO Slow For SNUBBY? HS6 Powder TOO Slow For SNUBBY?  
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Northeast PA, USA
Posts: 5,368
Likes: 266
Liked 1,737 Times in 1,060 Posts
Default

My prime powder for building .38 Special +P ammo is HS-6 especially for the FBI Load. I have found using a magnum primer will air in a full burn of the powder but more over, they shrink the SD numbers to single digits.

*Warning* The charge below exceeds most current data available but was published in the past. If you choose to use it blame no one but yourself if something goes bad.

Here is one of my loads, the FBI Load:
Winchester .38 Special +P case
158gr Hornady LSWC/HP
CCI 550 Primer (Magnum primer on this load)
7.0gr HS-6
COL 1.475"
4" M686 ---- 2" M640
927.0 -- AV --- 888.9
955.1 --- H --- 897.1
905.4 --- L --- 876.6
49.7 ---- ES --- 20.5
20.7 ---- SD ---- 7.9
17.0 ---- AD ---- 5.9
__________________
Freedom is never free!!
Reply With Quote
  #13  
Old 07-13-2018, 01:18 PM
HorizontalMike's Avatar
HorizontalMike HorizontalMike is online now
US Veteran
HS6 Powder TOO Slow For SNUBBY? HS6 Powder TOO Slow For SNUBBY? HS6 Powder TOO Slow For SNUBBY? HS6 Powder TOO Slow For SNUBBY? HS6 Powder TOO Slow For SNUBBY?  
Join Date: Nov 2013
Location: South Central Texas
Posts: 480
Likes: 655
Liked 381 Times in 181 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by ArchAngelCD View Post
My prime powder for building .38 Special +P ammo is HS-6 especially for the FBI Load. I have found using a magnum primer will air in a full burn of the powder but more over, they shrink the SD numbers to single digits.

*Warning* The charge below exceeds most current data available but was published in the past. If you choose to use it blame no one but yourself if something goes bad.

Here is one of my loads, the FBI Load:
Winchester .38 Special +P case
158gr Hornady LSWC/HP
CCI 550 Primer (Magnum primer on this load)
7.0gr HS-6
COL 1.475"
4" M686 ---- 2" M640
927.0 -- AV --- 888.9
955.1 --- H --- 897.1
905.4 --- L --- 876.6
49.7 ---- ES --- 20.5
20.7 ---- SD ---- 7.9
17.0 ---- AD ---- 5.9

Thanks for the info. I may have or NOT worked up a max load for my 38s 158xtp yet, but do have this thus far:
158gr Hornady XTP
CCI 550 Primer (Magnum primer on this load)
6.4gr HS-6 Above max in LEE, but inline with others
COL 1.475"
4" 686
796 -- AV
846 --- Hi
762 --- Lo
84 ---- ES
31 ---- SD
*Anyway, I have shot up all of that load and will need to add more rounds.

As stated in OP, I still need to get a good chrono on my 125xtp 38+P loads in my 2-inch snubbies. According to the LEE book, I could go as high as 7.8gr of HS6. I have only loaded 7.7gr so far. My 4-inch chronos look good, but not the 2-inch data.

As discussed above, there is a likelihood that my 2-inch shots are throwing out too much debris and resulting in null readings. Will try backing up to 5yd from the chrono, and making some other adjustments to see what I am truly getting.

After all that, I'll get to working up the 158xtp loads...
Reply With Quote
  #14  
Old 07-13-2018, 01:48 PM
Rule3's Avatar
Rule3 Rule3 is offline
Member
HS6 Powder TOO Slow For SNUBBY? HS6 Powder TOO Slow For SNUBBY? HS6 Powder TOO Slow For SNUBBY? HS6 Powder TOO Slow For SNUBBY? HS6 Powder TOO Slow For SNUBBY?  
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Florida, NRA CERT RSO
Posts: 19,066
Likes: 8,112
Liked 10,523 Times in 4,894 Posts
Default

There is nothing wrong with HS6 for snubby loads.


Speer Manual has "short barrel loads"


What brand of chronograph are you using??


10 to 15 feet is needed for distance.


The main issue I see is all the failures are due to KIMBER!



Yea old saying, the powders that do best in long barrels(velocity) also do so in short barrels. Which are slower powders. Unique can almost do it sometimes with some bullets and the Moon phase is correct.
No, I am not going to get in that old debate again.


My best guess is you have chrono issues


Don't know if you have checked out this thread?


Duplicating Buffalo Bore FBI Load
__________________
This space for rent.
Reply With Quote
The Following User Likes This Post:
  #15  
Old 07-13-2018, 02:25 PM
fredj338's Avatar
fredj338 fredj338 is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Kalif. usa
Posts: 4,885
Likes: 1,161
Liked 2,258 Times in 1,446 Posts
Default

IF you want max vel, slower powders always give you that, regardless of bbl. You will get more blast & flash & a faster powder might be within 20-30fps, but that is the fact jack.
__________________
NRA Cert. Inst. IDPA CSO
Reply With Quote
The Following User Likes This Post:
  #16  
Old 07-13-2018, 02:32 PM
reddog81 reddog81 is offline
Member
HS6 Powder TOO Slow For SNUBBY? HS6 Powder TOO Slow For SNUBBY? HS6 Powder TOO Slow For SNUBBY? HS6 Powder TOO Slow For SNUBBY? HS6 Powder TOO Slow For SNUBBY?  
Join Date: Sep 2014
Location: IA
Posts: 896
Likes: 218
Liked 683 Times in 366 Posts
Default

Nothing wrong with the gun. Nothing is wrong with the powder. The problem is the chronograph as others have suggested.

If you were getting velocities that low you'd have had stuck bullets in the barrel. Once you go under the 500 FPS range you start to run into problems.
Reply With Quote
The Following User Likes This Post:
  #17  
Old 07-13-2018, 03:25 PM
HorizontalMike's Avatar
HorizontalMike HorizontalMike is online now
US Veteran
HS6 Powder TOO Slow For SNUBBY? HS6 Powder TOO Slow For SNUBBY? HS6 Powder TOO Slow For SNUBBY? HS6 Powder TOO Slow For SNUBBY? HS6 Powder TOO Slow For SNUBBY?  
Join Date: Nov 2013
Location: South Central Texas
Posts: 480
Likes: 655
Liked 381 Times in 181 Posts
Thumbs up Finally Got Actual Data

OK.......... I finally got some results that I can believe, not necessarily great results but OK.

Personally, IMO, it was the highly reflective overhead door (in background of image) that was throwing off the chrono. Sure, 15ft is better than the 5-10ft (recommended from the owner's manual), but truly think the former is more likely than the latter. After all, both the 686 and 627PC did well at the shorter gun/chrono distances, and WITHOUT any chrono cover/shield.

Bottom line is that I thought I would get better FPS results at 7.7gr of HS6 with the 2in. LEE goes to 7.8gr of HS6 and Hornady goes as high as 8.1grains. I probably will NOT go that high because with this light load I get a lot of powder residue/buildup. There has to be a cleaner alternative.

*Poor Kimber haters, just watch as others start to copy the ergonomic aspects of the K6S, much less the 6-round vs 5-round capacity in a small frame. IMO, this is a game changer.
Attached Thumbnails
HS6 Powder TOO Slow For SNUBBY?-prochronodigital-w-hood-jpg   HS6 Powder TOO Slow For SNUBBY?-125xtp-hs6-2in-data-jpg  
Reply With Quote
  #18  
Old 07-13-2018, 04:28 PM
Rule3's Avatar
Rule3 Rule3 is offline
Member
HS6 Powder TOO Slow For SNUBBY? HS6 Powder TOO Slow For SNUBBY? HS6 Powder TOO Slow For SNUBBY? HS6 Powder TOO Slow For SNUBBY? HS6 Powder TOO Slow For SNUBBY?  
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Florida, NRA CERT RSO
Posts: 19,066
Likes: 8,112
Liked 10,523 Times in 4,894 Posts
Default

Well I see you have a good chrono but what is all the junk hanging on it?? The work buy registering the distance in lighting between the diffusors and the open space.



You shoot out of your garage??


Put it outside in the real Sunlight. Believe me it will work, I have one here in Florida.


The Kimber is a very nice gun, pricey but very nice trigger and build.
__________________
This space for rent.
Reply With Quote
  #19  
Old 07-13-2018, 05:05 PM
HorizontalMike's Avatar
HorizontalMike HorizontalMike is online now
US Veteran
HS6 Powder TOO Slow For SNUBBY? HS6 Powder TOO Slow For SNUBBY? HS6 Powder TOO Slow For SNUBBY? HS6 Powder TOO Slow For SNUBBY? HS6 Powder TOO Slow For SNUBBY?  
Join Date: Nov 2013
Location: South Central Texas
Posts: 480
Likes: 655
Liked 381 Times in 181 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rule3 View Post
Well I see you have a good chrono but what is all the junk hanging on it?? ...
You shoot out of your garage??
Put it outside in the real Sunlight. Believe me it will work, I have one here in Florida.

The Kimber is a very nice gun, pricey but very nice trigger and build.
Because it works
Yes
No it doesn't
And yes it is a fine revolver

Thank you for your input...
Reply With Quote
  #20  
Old 07-13-2018, 06:02 PM
rg1 rg1 is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Posts: 112
Likes: 1
Liked 48 Times in 32 Posts
Default

I solved my snubby erratic velocities by switching to AA#2 powder with 110 and 125 gr Hornady XTP's. I was getting about 300 fps between high and low with slow for .38 powders. Not the chronograph in my tests. AA#2 using Accurate Arms data gives good velocity with 110-125 grain bullets.
Reply With Quote
  #21  
Old 07-13-2018, 07:21 PM
Rule3's Avatar
Rule3 Rule3 is offline
Member
HS6 Powder TOO Slow For SNUBBY? HS6 Powder TOO Slow For SNUBBY? HS6 Powder TOO Slow For SNUBBY? HS6 Powder TOO Slow For SNUBBY? HS6 Powder TOO Slow For SNUBBY?  
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Florida, NRA CERT RSO
Posts: 19,066
Likes: 8,112
Liked 10,523 Times in 4,894 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by HorizontalMike View Post
Because it works
Yes
No it doesn't
And yes it is a fine revolver

Thank you for your input...

Well Alrighty then


Cary on with your Klingon Cloaking Device


Been using a Pro Chrno Digital for years


Your Welcome.
__________________
This space for rent.
Reply With Quote
  #22  
Old 07-13-2018, 07:25 PM
HorizontalMike's Avatar
HorizontalMike HorizontalMike is online now
US Veteran
HS6 Powder TOO Slow For SNUBBY? HS6 Powder TOO Slow For SNUBBY? HS6 Powder TOO Slow For SNUBBY? HS6 Powder TOO Slow For SNUBBY? HS6 Powder TOO Slow For SNUBBY?  
Join Date: Nov 2013
Location: South Central Texas
Posts: 480
Likes: 655
Liked 381 Times in 181 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rule3 View Post
Well Alrighty then
Cary on with your Klingon Cloaking Device
Been using a Pro Chrno Digital for years
Your Welcome.
And may the FARCE be with you...
Reply With Quote
The Following User Likes This Post:
  #23  
Old 07-13-2018, 07:28 PM
HorizontalMike's Avatar
HorizontalMike HorizontalMike is online now
US Veteran
HS6 Powder TOO Slow For SNUBBY? HS6 Powder TOO Slow For SNUBBY? HS6 Powder TOO Slow For SNUBBY? HS6 Powder TOO Slow For SNUBBY? HS6 Powder TOO Slow For SNUBBY?  
Join Date: Nov 2013
Location: South Central Texas
Posts: 480
Likes: 655
Liked 381 Times in 181 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by rg1 View Post
I solved my snubby erratic velocities by switching to AA#2 powder with 110 and 125 gr Hornady XTP's. I was getting about 300 fps between high and low with slow for .38 powders. Not the chronograph in my tests. AA#2 using Accurate Arms data gives good velocity with 110-125 grain bullets.
Yeah, but not quite ready to switch powders just yet. Still have +3lb of HS6, 8lb of N105, and 8lb of H322. to go through...

That said, I am looking at future purchases. Thanks!
Reply With Quote
  #24  
Old 07-13-2018, 08:30 PM
Rule3's Avatar
Rule3 Rule3 is offline
Member
HS6 Powder TOO Slow For SNUBBY? HS6 Powder TOO Slow For SNUBBY? HS6 Powder TOO Slow For SNUBBY? HS6 Powder TOO Slow For SNUBBY? HS6 Powder TOO Slow For SNUBBY?  
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Florida, NRA CERT RSO
Posts: 19,066
Likes: 8,112
Liked 10,523 Times in 4,894 Posts
Default

Here is a cut and past from another thread, it was dealing with short barrel 357 Mags, not 38 +P but the basic principals are the same, just a little less powder for 38 special.(but 38 special can and is loaded to near 357 Mag loads less around 10%
I didn't have enough HS6 to use, plus I find no real reason to use it.


Question:
Do slower powders produce higher velocities in a 357 Mag Short Barrel revolver?

Recoil, blast and flash are not part of this.

Research:
Most reloading data manuals and online powder companies show slower powders do produce higher velocities in tests using longer barrels or test barrels. Hornady may be an exception as their data is usually more "conservative" in all their loads than say Lyman or Speer.There is data going back to Speer #8 that shows higher velocities in short barrels also, Several of the test powders are no longer available. Most all Magnum powders are of the slower burning type. This is also shown in other high pressure calibers,
The adage of "powders that produce the highest velocity in long barrels will also do so in short barrels" Is a pretty well accepted statement. There are of course some who dispute this.
That brings up the fluff of "authoritative" learning vs Observation or Scientific approach? Internet myth. old wives tales? Maybe it needs to be on YouTube to considered "proof"??

What/who is the authority on reload data? It is the powder companies and the reloading manuals, that have done the actual testing.
This is where reloaders/handloaders obtain information!

Sure individuals can do their own tests, but if the data source is not revealed than how can it be compared? If a max load of two powders is compared and the actual data of one of the powders is below the listed max then yes the data will be skewed. That said, one statement on anecdotal evidence doe not prove anything,

As with ALL TESTS results will vary, sometimes a lot.!!
If the data from the current Speer manual/rather than Lyman was used than all these results would be different!


Hypothesis:

Based on reloading manual data and powder companies data, Slower burning powders should produce higher velocities in a short barrel.

This test is based on the information below and is "only a test" of these loads, bullet, firearm and test conditions.
Factors such as specific bullet friction, cylinder gap, exact bore dimensions and other minutia are present but not considered,


Test:

8/12/2016

12 noon
Temp 90F, Humidity 80% (HOT!)
Altitude 4-5' above Sea Level in the Swamp
Moon Phase "Waning Gibbous 69%"
Solar- No abnormal flares reported

Chronograph, Competition Electronics Pro Chrono Digital
10' from bench

Firearm = Ruger SP101, 2.35" Bbl
Brass= Remington .Trimmed to length
Bullet= Speer 125 TMJ FN
COL=1.577, Firm roll crimp at cannelure
Primer=CCI , 550 SPM (all loads)
All powder drops were hand weighed/checked on a calibrated Dillon Eliminator beam scale
Data obtained from Lyman #49 page 357 (yes 357)

Start loads used. Data for HP 38 from Hodgdon

Test Data:

Bullseye 6.5 gr

Avg=1024fps
H-=1031
L=1020
ES=11
SD=5
-----------------
HP 38, 7.3gr

Avg=971 fps
H=1002
L=938
ES=64
SD=32
---------------------
Unique, 7.0gr

Avg=897fps
H=956
L=859
ES=97
SD=38
------------------------------
Power Pistol, 9.0gr

Avg=1066
H=1102
L=1082
ES=74
SD=27
-------------------
2400, 13.0 gr

Avg=1028
H=1043
L=1004
ES=39
SD=21
-----------------------------
H110, 21.0gr

Avg=1200 fps
H=1240
L=1172
ES=68
SD=28

------------------------------

Added Data for Max loads of Unique and H110/ All else remains the same

Unique,9.7 gr

Avg=
1276
H=1297
L=1235
ES=62
SD=24

H110 Compressed, 22.0gr

Avg=1268
H=1299
L=1249
ES=50
SD=19

Strange the high and the low are higher than Unique but the avg is lower? Spikes? Not enough of a sample size?



Conclusion/Review:

In this test, with this gun, on this day. The start load of H110 produced the highest velocity of all powders tested.

That said, based on "experience" and many, many tests of other powders, calibers, some of the powders do not perform well at the lower levels, Many only begin to work well at mid range towards maximum. H110 powder has very little leeway between low and high.

Of course when the charge levels are increased a whole new set of data points will be revealed

A lot of similar testing was done in the past for the 327 Federal Mag in a SW M632 Pro 1-7/8 barrel (not ported)when they first came out. There was almost no data available at that time.
In that cartridge and a 115 gr JHP, H-110 again, produced the highest velocities.

I use a lot of HP38 and Power pistol and find they produce better results at the mid to high range in other calibers.

This test was at the start levels and is not really statistically valid as only 5 shots of each was used. Why? I did not want to use up my expensive JHPs just to collect data,
Also, it is a PITA to adjust the powder measure and weigh each one for 6 different powders, chronographing etc.

I collected, reviewed and enforced "authoritative" statutes, laws, regulations my whole career, doing so in a "hobby' is just not a whole lot of fun.

I also did not test Blue Dot due to Alliants warning, and did not use a SW K frame due to the "internet chatter" of forcing cone erosion with light bullets.

So if someone enjoys testing, collecting data. then that is their enjoyment.

I would rather shoot for accuracy, and do not put much emphasis on if one powder pushes the bullet a tad faster, __________________
This space for rent.
__________________
This space for rent.
Reply With Quote
  #25  
Old 07-13-2018, 08:46 PM
Nevada Ed's Avatar
Nevada Ed Nevada Ed is offline
Member
HS6 Powder TOO Slow For SNUBBY? HS6 Powder TOO Slow For SNUBBY? HS6 Powder TOO Slow For SNUBBY? HS6 Powder TOO Slow For SNUBBY? HS6 Powder TOO Slow For SNUBBY?  
Join Date: Nov 2012
Location: Reno Nv
Posts: 6,726
Likes: 234
Liked 3,815 Times in 1,986 Posts
Default

My chrony will work in the shade or w/o the plastic defusers over the unit.

However, I will go through the "Extra work" of putting the "Roof on" just because I do most of my test outdoors and
not out of a building.... to get good numbers.

I use a shotgun at 4 foot
Pistol at 10 foot minimum
Rifle at 15 foot plus, due to muzzle blast for regular or Magnum.

I HATE false readings or ERR !!
Reply With Quote
The Following User Likes This Post:
  #26  
Old 07-14-2018, 06:06 AM
stu1ritter's Avatar
stu1ritter stu1ritter is offline
US Veteran
HS6 Powder TOO Slow For SNUBBY? HS6 Powder TOO Slow For SNUBBY? HS6 Powder TOO Slow For SNUBBY? HS6 Powder TOO Slow For SNUBBY? HS6 Powder TOO Slow For SNUBBY?  
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Denver, CO
Posts: 1,462
Likes: 464
Liked 2,011 Times in 555 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by HorizontalMike View Post

Don't really need 38+P loads for my 4in 686, since I'm getting ~1400fps with my 8lb of N105 in .357 158xtp. What I do not know and would like to see, is penetration & expansion tests related to the 125xtp @1,000fps. Maybe that would be a "safer" SD load in a crowded mall (more expansion with less penetration)...?
Just around 1400fps with 8lb. of N105? I would be expecting something in the order of 140,000 fps!

:~)

Stu
Reply With Quote
  #27  
Old 07-14-2018, 06:37 AM
HorizontalMike's Avatar
HorizontalMike HorizontalMike is online now
US Veteran
HS6 Powder TOO Slow For SNUBBY? HS6 Powder TOO Slow For SNUBBY? HS6 Powder TOO Slow For SNUBBY? HS6 Powder TOO Slow For SNUBBY? HS6 Powder TOO Slow For SNUBBY?  
Join Date: Nov 2013
Location: South Central Texas
Posts: 480
Likes: 655
Liked 381 Times in 181 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by stu1ritter View Post
Just around 1400fps with 8lb. of N105? I would be expecting something in the order of 140,000 fps!
:~)
Stu
Yup,...uh-huh,...'shore...

It's safe to say I won't be changing .357 powders anytime soon...
Reply With Quote
  #28  
Old 07-14-2018, 07:01 AM
Forrest r Forrest r is online now
Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Ohio
Posts: 996
Likes: 15
Liked 846 Times in 382 Posts
Default

Odd???

Your getting 1400fps with the 158gr xtp/n105 combo out of a 4" bbl'd revolver.
The factory only got 1466fps with the same combo, but they were using a 7" test bbl. 3" longer and no cylinder gap.

xtp's are not known for their high velocity, other bullets with the same weight/load have higher velocities.

With short bbl's revolvers everything matters. HS-6 does better with heavier bullets. I'd be looking @ 158gr to 170gr lead bulletsin the 38spl cases.
Reply With Quote
  #29  
Old 07-14-2018, 08:28 AM
HorizontalMike's Avatar
HorizontalMike HorizontalMike is online now
US Veteran
HS6 Powder TOO Slow For SNUBBY? HS6 Powder TOO Slow For SNUBBY? HS6 Powder TOO Slow For SNUBBY? HS6 Powder TOO Slow For SNUBBY? HS6 Powder TOO Slow For SNUBBY?  
Join Date: Nov 2013
Location: South Central Texas
Posts: 480
Likes: 655
Liked 381 Times in 181 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Forrest r View Post
...[snip]...

xtp's are not known for their high velocity, other bullets with the same weight/load have higher velocities.

With short bbl's revolvers everything matters. HS-6 does better with heavier bullets. I'd be looking @ 158gr to 170gr lead bulletsin the 38spl cases.
I already have ~2,000 125xtp bullets to find a load for. I bought these specifically for either 38 or 38+P for my snubbies. Sorry... ...I am really, really hoping to get ~1,000-1,100fps out of my 2in with these 125xtp.

BTW, with my 2in. I am currently getting ~700-720fps w/HS6 @6.1gr & 158xtp. Still have room to increase powder to ~6.6gr (LEE says 926fps ). We'll see... Either way, the 125xtp may not be the way to go, because the 158xtp will get close to the same fps speeds.
Reply With Quote
  #30  
Old 07-14-2018, 09:44 PM
Nevada Ed's Avatar
Nevada Ed Nevada Ed is offline
Member
HS6 Powder TOO Slow For SNUBBY? HS6 Powder TOO Slow For SNUBBY? HS6 Powder TOO Slow For SNUBBY? HS6 Powder TOO Slow For SNUBBY? HS6 Powder TOO Slow For SNUBBY?  
Join Date: Nov 2012
Location: Reno Nv
Posts: 6,726
Likes: 234
Liked 3,815 Times in 1,986 Posts
Default

In a 686 6" I am getting around 1430fps with a 125gr XTP with HS-6 powder and a cci 500 primer.
Reply With Quote
  #31  
Old 07-15-2018, 02:23 AM
ArchAngelCD's Avatar
ArchAngelCD ArchAngelCD is offline
Member
HS6 Powder TOO Slow For SNUBBY? HS6 Powder TOO Slow For SNUBBY? HS6 Powder TOO Slow For SNUBBY? HS6 Powder TOO Slow For SNUBBY? HS6 Powder TOO Slow For SNUBBY?  
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Northeast PA, USA
Posts: 5,368
Likes: 266
Liked 1,737 Times in 1,060 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by HorizontalMike View Post
Bottom line is that I thought I would get better FPS results at 7.7gr of HS6 with the 2in. LEE goes to 7.8gr of HS6 and Hornady goes as high as 8.1grains. I probably will NOT go that high because with this light load I get a lot of powder residue/buildup. There has to be a cleaner alternative.
HS-6 is an older and hard to ignite ball powder that performs better up near the stop of the pressure curve. The use of a magnum primer is also highly recommended. It insures proper and more complete ignition which helps the "clean" part.

Before giving up on HS-6 try it with a magnum primer.
__________________
Freedom is never free!!
Reply With Quote
  #32  
Old 07-15-2018, 08:34 AM
HorizontalMike's Avatar
HorizontalMike HorizontalMike is online now
US Veteran
HS6 Powder TOO Slow For SNUBBY? HS6 Powder TOO Slow For SNUBBY? HS6 Powder TOO Slow For SNUBBY? HS6 Powder TOO Slow For SNUBBY? HS6 Powder TOO Slow For SNUBBY?  
Join Date: Nov 2013
Location: South Central Texas
Posts: 480
Likes: 655
Liked 381 Times in 181 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by ArchAngelCD View Post
HS-6 is an older and hard to ignite ball powder that performs better up near the stop of the pressure curve. The use of a magnum primer is also highly recommended. It insures proper and more complete ignition which helps the "clean" part.

Before giving up on HS-6 try it with a magnum primer.
BTW, that is all I have been using,... CCI #550 MP.

Maybe I should be thinking about another (faster) powder for 38+P with my light 125xtp bullets, and leave the HS6 for my 38+P 158xtp.

However, I will work up a few 38/125xtp with 7.9gr or 8.0gr of HS6 and give it one last try, before moving on. If I can get +1,000fps in my 2in I'll quit there, a happy camper.

Trying to stay away from using 357s in my Kimber K6S, even though it could take it my hands might not holding a 23oz revolver. At least that would not be what I consider "fun". My 357s are +40oz and THEY are fun!
Reply With Quote
  #33  
Old 07-15-2018, 09:54 AM
bluetopper's Avatar
bluetopper bluetopper is offline
Member
HS6 Powder TOO Slow For SNUBBY? HS6 Powder TOO Slow For SNUBBY? HS6 Powder TOO Slow For SNUBBY? HS6 Powder TOO Slow For SNUBBY? HS6 Powder TOO Slow For SNUBBY?  
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Northeast TX
Posts: 820
Likes: 269
Liked 322 Times in 156 Posts
Default

2400 is not too slow of a powder for my model 19 snub, I don't know why HS6 would be too slow for yours?
Reply With Quote
  #34  
Old 07-17-2018, 05:01 PM
HorizontalMike's Avatar
HorizontalMike HorizontalMike is online now
US Veteran
HS6 Powder TOO Slow For SNUBBY? HS6 Powder TOO Slow For SNUBBY? HS6 Powder TOO Slow For SNUBBY? HS6 Powder TOO Slow For SNUBBY? HS6 Powder TOO Slow For SNUBBY?  
Join Date: Nov 2013
Location: South Central Texas
Posts: 480
Likes: 655
Liked 381 Times in 181 Posts
Thumbs up Good 38+P loads?!

Well I loaded up several 8.0gr cartridges of HS6 for my 125xtp 38+P for my 2in Kimber K6S. That was at/beyond the max for several different reloading manuals.

I ONLY tested with my K6S 2in Kimber revolver (see attached) because THIS is what they will be used in. I believe that these results are very similar to my 7.2gr loads with my 4in 686. Have NOT tested 8.0gr in my 4in 686 yet.

FWIW, I understand that XTPs don't expand well in the 7-800fps range. Hoping that boosting my speed up to 924fps may help solve that issue. IF NOT, I have 1k of Speer Gold Dot Bullets 38 Caliber (357 Diameter) 125 Grain Bonded Jacketed Hollow Point bullets ON ORDER to correct/upgrade this situation...

OH YEAH! I discovered Lucky Gunners Lab results of 38-357 testing. https://www.luckygunner.com/labs/rev...llistics-test/
The best part IMO, is that all 2in barrel testing was with the Kimber K6S (my NEW carry ). This could not be better for ME, because it allowed me to see how much the 125XTP bullets expanded (or not) at different FPS speeds.
https://www.luckygunner.com/labs/rev...llistics-test/

Anywayzzzz..... I think I have my 38+P 125XTP loads figured out... I hope...
Attached Thumbnails
HS6 Powder TOO Slow For SNUBBY?-2018-07-17-kimber2in-8_0gr-hs6-924fps-jpg  
Reply With Quote
  #35  
Old 07-17-2018, 05:58 PM
Kurusu's Avatar
Kurusu Kurusu is offline
Member
HS6 Powder TOO Slow For SNUBBY? HS6 Powder TOO Slow For SNUBBY? HS6 Powder TOO Slow For SNUBBY? HS6 Powder TOO Slow For SNUBBY? HS6 Powder TOO Slow For SNUBBY?  
Join Date: Oct 2017
Location: Portugal
Posts: 1,499
Likes: 9,087
Liked 3,367 Times in 1,132 Posts
Default

Just make sure you get enough crimp with the lighter bullets.
__________________
Non omnia possumus omnes
Reply With Quote
  #36  
Old Yesterday, 06:24 AM
HorizontalMike's Avatar
HorizontalMike HorizontalMike is online now
US Veteran
HS6 Powder TOO Slow For SNUBBY? HS6 Powder TOO Slow For SNUBBY? HS6 Powder TOO Slow For SNUBBY? HS6 Powder TOO Slow For SNUBBY? HS6 Powder TOO Slow For SNUBBY?  
Join Date: Nov 2013
Location: South Central Texas
Posts: 480
Likes: 655
Liked 381 Times in 181 Posts
Thumbs up

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kurusu View Post
Just make sure you get enough crimp with the lighter bullets.
You bet!
Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Timing/How Slow is Too Slow Retired W4 S&W-Smithing 4 12-28-2013 03:28 AM
38/357 4227 powder is too slow Nevada Ed Reloading 3 01-19-2013 10:00 PM
Slow Powder for a BAR? Snapping Twig Reloading 6 04-10-2012 03:00 AM
Slow vs Fast powder- gun wear rustypigeon Reloading 14 08-10-2009 09:35 AM

Powered by vBadvanced CMPS v3.2.3
smith-wessonforum.com tested by Norton Internet Security smith-wessonforum.com tested by McAfee Internet Security

All times are GMT -4. The time now is 07:52 AM.


S-W Forum, LLC 2000-2018
Smith-WessonForum.com is not affiliated with Smith & Wesson Holding Corporation (NASDAQ Global Select: SWHC)