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Old 08-10-2018, 07:17 AM
Carl Bill Carl Bill is offline
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Angry Bullets coming loose from case.

I'm new to reloading and I have had a problem lately with a few bullets (2 out of 50) coming loose from the case as they are being fed into the chamber of my FNS-9. They will jam just as they enter the chamber and when you clear the jam the bullet, powder and case fall out separately. They appear to be together when they jam but fall apart as they tumble out. I'm shooting Speer CPRN nose bullets and using RCBS's 3 dies set. Not sure if I'm not crimping enough or if I'm expanding the case mouth to much. The OAL of my loads are where the manuals say I should be. When I look at the bullets that fall out I can see a slight ring around the CPRN from my taper crimp. The bullets get a small flat spot on the tip when I use the seating/crimping die so I would think the expansion and crimping settings I'm using are OK. The bullets that fall out measure .354. The Speer CPRN should be .355. Not sure if this is enough to cause the problem. Any and all help would be greatly appreciated.
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Old 08-10-2018, 07:57 AM
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My first guess is that the cases are being over expanded. The case mouth should be flared just enough to allow the base of the bullet to enter. You may also have an expander plug that is oversized. Couple an oversized plug and/or too much flare plus an undesized bullet and the case is not going to place much tension on that bullet.

Just my initial thoughts.
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Old 08-10-2018, 08:16 AM
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Might want to check your OAL.
Sounds like your bullet may be jamming into the rifling / chamber.

I have a Glock and a CZ that have 'short chambers' and with some different bullet shapes / ogives the bullet will jam into the rifling.
I usually don't have any problems with RN bullets. But have had problems with Truncated Cone Flat Nose bullets.

Might want to do a 'plunk test ' on your bullets. Take the barrel out of the firearm and drop a round in the chamber to see if it goes flush into the chamber.
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Old 08-10-2018, 08:26 AM
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Had the same issue with some undersized FMJ bullets. I ended up bench testing the 200 rounds I had and about 30 set back into the case. Since I had about 1000 of these suspect projectiles I ended up buying a 9mm ĎUí sizing die. No more setback and I use it now for all my reloads.
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Old 08-10-2018, 08:43 AM
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Your .354 may actually be .3545?
Check to see if the cases that are failing are of the same brand, are these new cases or did you purchase used casings or have you been picking up misc range brass?

Likely if the bullets coming loose are a bit further down the mag the recoil is loosening them enough that they are moving forward then jamming as they are fed.
If you are having issues where the bullet is contacting the rifling that normally does not allow the slide to completely close and it will usually not fire and be difficult to extract the round, this is a different issue than what is sounds like you have.
**I didn't correctly read your issue, looks like maybe you do have an OAL issue or issue with bullet profile that is contacting the lands and grooves*** see comments from others below for more help

Hmm a small ring from the 'taper crimp'? I'm not so sure a taper crimp will leave a ring, a roll crimp yes. You can take some of your reloads that you have initially measured and then push them firmly against a hard object to see if the bullet sets back any.
Do you have an inertia bullet puller? Could come in handy to check for bullet grip with your crimp as well as any distortion from the crimp.

Also check the bad casing for a tiny split in the lip just in case you have some tired out brass!
Karl

Last edited by ontargetagain; 08-10-2018 at 09:32 AM.
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Old 08-10-2018, 09:11 AM
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Default I second that motion.....

Quote:
Originally Posted by old&slow View Post
Might want to check your OAL.
Sounds like your bullet may be jamming into the rifling / chamber.

I have a Glock and a CZ that have 'short chambers' and with some different bullet shapes / ogives the bullet will jam into the rifling.
I usually don't have any problems with RN bullets. But have had problems with Truncated Cone Flat Nose bullets.

Might want to do a 'plunk test ' on your bullets. Take the barrel out of the firearm and drop a round in the chamber to see if it goes flush into the chamber.
When the bullet chambers, it gets jammed in the rifling and when you clear it, you pull the bullet.

I had about a thousand 9mm RN buillet. The site didn't call them small ball and I didn't realize that's what they were. They WILL NOT WORK if they are even a hair over 1.06". A round nose bullet sctually has a taper to it so it can be longer and not hit the lands at the mouth of the chamber. But small ball are REALLY round nose shape, as in spherical and can't protrude a bit into the the chamber so they are wider, quicker and they will catch on the lands. If you keep them 1.06" MAX they will run like a top. If this is your problem, I give you a free gift of this advice. It really had me messed up for a long time. I'd been reloading for years until I got into semi guns and this really shook my confidence.
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Old 08-10-2018, 09:14 AM
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Default I second that motion.....

Quote:
Originally Posted by old&slow View Post
Might want to check your OAL.
Sounds like your bullet may be jamming into the rifling / chamber.

I have a Glock and a CZ that have 'short chambers' and with some different bullet shapes / ogives the bullet will jam into the rifling.
I usually don't have any problems with RN bullets. But have had problems with Truncated Cone Flat Nose bullets.

Might want to do a 'plunk test ' on your bullets. Take the barrel out of the firearm and drop a round in the chamber to see if it goes flush into the chamber.
When the bullet chambers, it gets jammed in the rifling and when you clear it, you pull the bullet.

I had about a thousand 9mm RN buillet. The site didn't call them small ball and I didn't realize that's what they were. They WILL NOT WORK if they are even a hair over 1.06". A round nose bullet sctually has a taper to it so it can be longer and not hit the lands at the mouth of the chamber. But small ball are REALLY round nose shape, as in spherical and can't protrude a bit into the the chamber so they are wider, quicker and they will catch on the lands. If you keep them 1.06" MAX they will run like a top. If this is your problem, I give you a free gift of this advice. It really had me messed up for a long time. I'd been reloading for years until I got into semi guns and this really shook my confidence.

You MAY have some inconsistency if you use mixed brass, too. Some case walls are thick and some are very thing. The thinner ones won't size to the same internal diameter.
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Old 08-10-2018, 09:22 AM
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If your bullets are engaging the lands, shorten your COL. Load data COL is not gospel.

Leaving a crimp ring on a bullet is a sign of over crimping with semi autos. Flatten out the case flare and no more. Case neck tension holds the bullet, not crimp. Adjust flare, crimp, and COL until a round passes the mentioned Plunk test.
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Old 08-10-2018, 09:34 AM
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Default jams

Thanks for the replies. I should have stated that when the jam occurs the slide is stopped back far enough you can look at the top of the mag and see the offending cartridge and the bullet. The bullet is setting on the feed ramp, and slightly into the chamber but not fully, at this point the bullet is still in the casing. when I rack the slide to clear, the cartridge falls out in separate components. The cartridge is not in the chamber at all when the jam occurs.
Yes I'm using mixed brass and range brass in my reloads. Will check my reloads for loose bullets and see if they are all the same brand of brass.

Last edited by Carl Bill; 08-10-2018 at 09:42 AM.
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Old 08-10-2018, 09:48 AM
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Yes your oal is too long. Regardless of any data, the loaded round needs to fit your gun. The oal is diff for every bullet & every gun. As noted with mixed brass, your oal will vary, as much as 0.005".
So make up a dummy rd & try it in the removed bbl. it should flush with the hood & fall in & out of a clean chamber, if it rides high, seat 0.005" deeper umtil it does fit.
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Old 08-10-2018, 12:02 PM
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Some brands of cases are manufactured with thinner walls than others, when you discover these just save them for later use .
I had the same experience when I started loading 9mm with .356 diameter bullets....a lot of them would loosen. Easy fix was bigger bullet .357 solved that problem completely. I started using cast lead , RN , TC and SWC all sized to .357 and I've had no more loose bullets ever ! The .357 size works in 4 different pistols , seating depth may need adjustment due to larger bullet but the SWC and TC design's were easy to get right for all 4 guns.
The cases with thinner walls have no trouble holding .357 bullets at all, use them here.
Gary

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Old 08-10-2018, 12:32 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gwpercle View Post
Some brands of cases are manufactured with thinner walls than others, when you discover these just save them for later use .
I had the same experience when I started loading 9mm with .356 diameter bullets....a lot of them would loosen. Easy fix was bigger bullet .357 solved that problem completely. I started using cast lead , RN , TC and SWC all sized to .357 and I've had no more loose bullets ever ! The .357 size works in 4 different pistols , seating depth may need adjustment due to larger bullet but the SWC and TC design's were easy to get right for all 4 guns.
The cases with thinner walls have no trouble holding .357 bullets at all, use them here.
Gary
Agree, I run 0.356" plated or 0.357" coated lead in all my 9mm, BUT, too little neck tension will often cause a setback. What the O{P is experiencing is a bullet far too long, jamming into the lands & not even going into full battery.
OAL seems to befuddle even exp reloaders. It's simple, regardless of data the loaded round MUST FIT your gun. The data is a starting point, especially for OAL. That OAL is only good for that exact gun & that exact bullet. In my reloading class I show the students 8 diff 124gr bullets in 9mm. No way you could get a single OAL to work with 2, much less all 8.
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Old 08-10-2018, 01:45 PM
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With any new brass or bullets..........
I make sure a sized case is small enough at the neck, to not allow a bullet to fit inside.

Then I bell the case just enough to let the bullet seat and stand up with a little help.

A "Plunk test" makes sure the OAL is correct for the weapon and magazine....
no matter what the data states.

A longer or shorter OAL or a tighter taper crimp can be added if
you still have a safe pressure and functioning.

Good luck.
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Old 08-10-2018, 02:16 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fredj338 View Post
Agree, I run 0.356" plated or 0.357" coated lead in all my 9mm, BUT, too little neck tension will often cause a setback. What the O{P is experiencing is a bullet far too long, jamming into the lands & not even going into full battery.
OAL seems to befuddle even exp reloaders. It's simple, regardless of data the loaded round MUST FIT your gun. The data is a starting point, especially for OAL. That OAL is only good for that exact gun & that exact bullet. In my reloading class I show the students 8 diff 124gr bullets in 9mm. No way you could get a single OAL to work with 2, much less all 8.
My problem isn't that my gun going into FULL BATTERY, or not quiet fully in battery, and the bullet is being pulled from the case as I cycle the slide manually. it's not even getting the CPRN bullet started into the chamber. The bullet is resting on the feed ramp when it jams. The round is fully visible when it jams. I'm thinking that as the round is being pushed up the feed ramp, the bullet pops free from the casing. The OAL is NOT to long, it is actually short than what the manuals call for. I believe my problem is either the bullets is to small , the crimp isn't tight enough or I'm expanding the case to much in my loading process. Thank you for your reply though
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Old 08-10-2018, 02:43 PM
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It sounds like you're bullets are way to small or the sizing die is not doing it's job. If you expand the case too much usually it flares the case mouth so much that it's impossible to get the brass into the seating die.

I doubt its not enough crimp. Not enough crimp can sometimes prevent a bullet from chambering completely. Too much crimp can create a situation where the bullet is loose because the brass springs back and the copper/lead of the bullet does not.

If your bullets are falling apart on the feed ramp I'd start at square one and make sure every die being used is the appropriate die and redo the setup of each die.
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Old 08-10-2018, 03:43 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by reddog81 View Post
It sounds like you're bullets are way to small or the sizing die is not doing it's job. If you expand the case too much usually it flares the case mouth so much that it's impossible to get the brass into the seating die.

I doubt its not enough crimp. Not enough crimp can sometimes prevent a bullet from chambering completely. Too much crimp can create a situation where the bullet is loose because the brass springs back and the copper/lead of the bullet does not.

If your bullets are falling apart on the feed ramp I'd start at square one and make sure every die being used is the appropriate die and redo the setup of each die.
Thanks REDDOG. I'll start over with the settings on my dies and see what happens.
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Old 08-10-2018, 04:20 PM
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Whether it's a problem with the sizing die, undersized bullets, thin cases, ect., or a combination of the above, based on your description, its sounds like a case neck tension issue. Are you experiencing any bullet set back in any of your loads? It almost sounds like your bullets may be creeping forward under recoil, causing the problem rounds to be to long to feed properly, with some coming all the way out of the case.

Thing is, usually bullet creep forward is seen in revolvers, and bullet set back in autoloaders. But no matter what, any bullet moving around in the loaded case is a strong indication of neck tension problems.

While I don't personally like them, lots of guys do like the Lee Factory Crimp Die for making "problem" loads work. Might want to try one before you go thru the expense of replacing your other dies, brass and bullets trying to find a combo that works for you. As far as your bullet loosing .001 after being reloaded, this is common with soft bullets and taper crimp dies, especially if the bullet is measured at the base.

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Old 08-10-2018, 04:24 PM
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Agree with REDDOG. Make sure the sizing die is adjusted all of the way down or at least so far down it squishes those cases enough. Adjust the sizing before setting the decapping pin depth. You are using the correct sizing die I assume. Mine tends to get a little over squished so that you can tell the bullet depth on the loaded ammo.
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Old 08-10-2018, 09:55 PM
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I don't know if this is your first outing or you have shot 50,000 rounds but..........
you might also check the lips on your magazine to see if the
ammo is sitting correctly to feed.........
and not in the position to "Nose dive" into the feed ramp.

Some mags are ok from the factory while others might need a
little "Fine tuning" to make things right.

One thing good about reloading, is that a bad box of bullets only
last, so long !!
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Old 08-10-2018, 10:03 PM
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I bet you are using a set of Lee dies and running them thru a bulge buster last
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Old 08-10-2018, 11:08 PM
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Over expanding/belling the case mouth for bullet seating is
a pretty common error, for beginning reloaders. Try to get
it down to the minimum, to keep from shaving the plating
when seating slug.
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Old 08-10-2018, 11:38 PM
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Quote:
The OAL is NOT to long, it is actually short than what the manuals call for. I believe my problem is either the bullets is to small , the crimp isn't tight enough or I'm expanding the case to much in my loading process.
You keep saying your OAL is not too long because it's in your manual. That is incorrect. The OAL listed in the manual only tells you what they used. Unless you use the same exact bullet they used in the same exact brass they used, trimmed to the same exact length they did, their OAL is useless to you. You need to check the cartridges your barrel. Some barrels require a shorter cartridge, some bullets must be loaded very short. The only way to know is to PLUNK TEST your loaded cartridges in your barrel.

Like already said, too much crimp could cause loose bullets. Only neck tension will secure the bullet and the "crimp" is only used to iron out the bell added to aid in starting the bullet in the case.

First things first, remove your barrel from your gun and plunk the ammo you already loaded. A wealth of information will be had with that simple test.
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Old 08-11-2018, 10:55 AM
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Quote:
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You keep saying your OAL is not too long because it's in your manual. That is incorrect. The OAL listed in the manual only tells you what they used. Unless you use the same exact bullet they used in the same exact brass they used, trimmed to the same exact length they did, their OAL is useless to you. You need to check the cartridges your barrel. Some barrels require a shorter cartridge, some bullets must be loaded very short. The only way to know is to PLUNK TEST your loaded cartridges in your barrel.

Like already said, too much crimp could cause loose bullets. Only neck tension will secure the bullet and the "crimp" is only used to iron out the bell added to aid in starting the bullet in the case.

First things first, remove your barrel from your gun and plunk the ammo you already loaded. A wealth of information will be had with that simple test.
I've done the plunk test and the loaded rounds fit great, same as a factory round. They drop right in and even after pushing on the primer end of the round they fall right out. I'm using RCBS carbide 3 dies set and when I get a chance will re-adjust the dies from the beginning. I'm starting to think the amount of expansion I'm using may be to much. Thanks for everyone's input.

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Old 08-14-2018, 08:16 AM
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I only changed the flair of my expansion dies so that I could just barely start a bullet into the casing. I made no other changes as far as resizing, the slight crimp, and the OAL to my dies. I figured I would make one change at a time till I figured out what was wrong. Only fired about 40 rounds, but so far no problems. Just wanted to thank everyone for your input. This site is amazing and very helpful for us newbies.
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Old 08-14-2018, 09:17 AM
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You mention your brass is a mix of range pickups.

I have had nothing but problems with .45 auto RP brass. It is thin and doesn't have sufficient neck tension to hold the bullet.
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Old 08-14-2018, 12:31 PM
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Sounds like you've found a soln.
I suspect the rounds were separating the bullet from the case while in the magazine from the recoil of the preceding shots.
Then when one of the loosened/longer than normal rds came up for feeding next, that wasn't about to make it's way up the ramp and into the chamber.
That's what you were looking at lying in the magazine and partially onto the feed ramp.

Ejecting it at that point flips it out of the gun but the bullet simply falls out of the casing as it's only held w/minimum tension on a short portion of the bullet,,if any at all.

Dies, bullets, brass,,they all are made within certain specs.
But if the highs and lows of those specs get mixed just right you can have overly tight conditions where things won't go together.
Or on the other end, loose conditions where things fall together with little tension (in this instance).

Sometimes simply swapping expander plugs around with another set of dies will get you a tighter neck tension you need.
Not flaring the brass quite so dramaticly as you've done can help also in some instances.

The expander plug on one set of dies may be a .000 or a 1/2 .000 smaller or larger than another. Add in a smaller than usual bullet dia or the other way around,,thin or thick brass walls,,you get the idea.


That ring on the taper crimped cases might have disappeared on your latest reloads with the lesser flare to the mouth.
Too much flare to the case and the die has trouble gathering the wide outer dia of the flare and bringing it back in w/o it folding in on itself just a bit.
That small wrinkle or fold shows up as a bright spot near the case mouth and looks like an extra deep crimp. But it's just the bunched up matl (brass) being flattened back down by the die.
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Old 08-14-2018, 12:58 PM
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Originally Posted by Carl Bill View Post
My problem isn't that my gun going into FULL BATTERY, or not quiet fully in battery, and the bullet is being pulled from the case as I cycle the slide manually. it's not even getting the CPRN bullet started into the chamber. The bullet is resting on the feed ramp when it jams. The round is fully visible when it jams. I'm thinking that as the round is being pushed up the feed ramp, the bullet pops free from the casing. The OAL is NOT to long, it is actually short than what the manuals call for. I believe my problem is either the bullets is to small , the crimp isn't tight enough or I'm expanding the case to much in my loading process. Thank you for your reply though
Crimp will not hold the bullet, neck tension does. So measure the bullets, they want to be at a min 0.355". If your sizing dies is set correctly, touching the shell plate, then either the die is out of spec or your expander is. Measure the expander, it wants to be no larger than 0.354".
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Old 08-24-2018, 07:29 AM
Carl Bill Carl Bill is offline
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Bullets coming loose from case. Bullets coming loose from case. Bullets coming loose from case. Bullets coming loose from case. Bullets coming loose from case.  
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Just a quick update. I was out shooting on Wednesday and put close to 200 rounds of my reloads thru my 9mm with out a problem. Like I said the only change I made to my setup was to reduce the expansion to a minimum. Thanks so much for all your help.
Carl Bill
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Old 08-24-2018, 09:27 AM
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reloader7.62 reloader7.62 is offline
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Bullets coming loose from case. Bullets coming loose from case. Bullets coming loose from case. Bullets coming loose from case. Bullets coming loose from case.  
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Bullet tension is determined by:
1. The resizing die.
2. The expander plug. (Bell mouth die)
3. Case wall thickness.
4. Bullet diameter.

The best way I know to properly set up your taper crimp die is first resize a casing and measure the mouth diameter with a set of calipers. Now take that empty casing and run it through the taper crimp die and measure again. The two measurements should be the same, or up to .002 smaller. Remember though less is more when it comes to taper crimping.

Your pistols barrel is your best guage for setting the proper OAL and making sure your ammo feeds and functions in your particular firearm.
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