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Old 08-13-2018, 06:00 PM
sniper sniper is offline
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Smile Bullet hardness??

I don't cast any more, and after an unhappy experience with a local caster's "hard cast" bullets (leading)I am looking for commercially cast bullets that may solve the problem.
My loads will be 125gr, 148gr. and 150-160gr. cast bullets in 357 magnum cases, standard primers from a 4 inch barrel, loaded to ~ 850-950 fps. My revolver throats measure .358, which is what I will order the cast bullets as. The barrel mikes .3564.

What Brinnell hardness of alloy should I look for, to shoot with as little leading as possible?

Will increasing bullet diameter to .359 have any effect, negative or positive?

Powders are Unique, Universal, Herco, and AA#5.

Suggestions, recommendations for hardness, bullet casters, or newer powders, like BE 86, or Sport Pistol?
Thanx!
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Old 08-13-2018, 07:13 PM
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There are several suppliers of quality cast bullets that I have seen mentioned here. Myself I have fired several thousand rounds of cast bullets from SNS. My favorites have been their 130gr RNFP and their 158gr SWC. They are available with either Hi-Tek coating or plain cast lubed. As a test I smashed one of their coated 130gr bullets flat with a hammer and there was no coating loss. I have fired both of those bullets at much higher velocities than you plan with zero leading. Also with the coated bullets there is almost no smoke.
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Old 08-13-2018, 07:20 PM
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I don't cast anything but .427 bullets for my 44-40....

all other needs are being met by Donny Summers at Summersenterprises.com.....

Premium quality in every regard and top notch service and pricing. Many SASS, IDPA and USPSA shooters here in Montana love his products.

Randy

Last edited by growr; 08-13-2018 at 09:46 PM.
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Old 08-13-2018, 07:27 PM
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Default Coupla.....

Bayou Bullets and Missouri Bullets are where I buy most.
I generally use coated bullets the most but I've used plenty of plain grease in groove jobs, especially up til a few years ago. I've still got a good many to shoot up.
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Old 08-13-2018, 08:35 PM
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I've had great results with SNS, Summers Enterprises and Missouri with HyTek Coated Lead. I agree with 1sailor. You can really jack these up with no leading and No smoke. I've also been trying some Non Coated from GT Bullets. A bit pricey but you can buy small lots for trial and the quality is fantastic.
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Old 08-13-2018, 08:37 PM
Eddietruett Eddietruett is offline
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I don't anything but .427 bullets for my 44-40....

all other needs are being met by Donny Summers at Summersenterprises.com.....

Premium quality in every regard and top notch service and pricing. Many SASS, IDPA and USPSA shooters here in Montana love his products.

Randy
Donnie is 1st class. Adds a personal touch to his orders that are unheard of in todays world. Always make you feel like he really appreciates your business. He will spend time to answer questions as well.
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Old 08-13-2018, 08:39 PM
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Missouri makes many of their offerings in multiple hardness ranges. They also have a good explanation on their site as to what hardness to use for what speeds. I have used them happily for 15 years. That said, I have reciently gone over mostly to their coated bullets. Leading and smoke are a thing of the past.
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Old 08-13-2018, 08:58 PM
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Bullet hardness (or the lack of it) is rarely the cause of barrel leading, but for about the past 15 years or more it has become and obsession of sorts.

If the bullet is too small, you will get leading no matter how hard the bullet is.

Good bullet lube is also critically important, and most of the hard commercial lubes do not work well.

I have just recently started using powder coating, and have not had good results... yet. I am sure the fault lies with me and my technique, and I have not given up on it.

I don't use overly hard bullet metal, and have never owned a bullet hardness tester, or ever needed one. I shoot cast bullets in handguns and rifles, and don't have a problem if the fit is right and I am using good lube.

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Old 08-13-2018, 09:08 PM
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Before I did anything, I'd want to understand the cause of your unhappy experience with your local caster. Why did you have leading? Otherwise you're just kinda throwing darts at the wall.

That said, your revolver's dimensions sound okay. If you got those numbers with calipers, I'd recommend actually slugging your gun... you'll get a more accurate read. It's also possible for you to have a tight spot in the barrel that is not apparent by just measuring the bore at the muzzle. You'll feel it if you slug it.

I would start with bullets sized to .358. Loading .359-sized bullets may very well shoot okay in your gun, but if the dimensions you quoted are accurate, there's no reason for them to shoot better than .358. (Said differently, if .359 bullets shoot better in your gun than .358 bullets, it suggests to me that the dimensions are not precisely what you think they are).

Bullets sized to .359 will raise pressures over the same bullet in .358 - you'd want to consider it a totally different load. Other than that, you would probably get accelerated forcing cone wear. Nothing dramatic.

BHN of 12 or thereabouts would be fine. That's going to be way south of almost all commercial casters today (who tend towards BHN's of 18-20, or even higher).
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Old 08-13-2018, 09:39 PM
Mike, SC Hunter Mike, SC Hunter is online now
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When lube sticks went to $3-$5 a piece I started making my own. I use 60% commode seal and 40% canning wax( or my wife's old scented candles. Make the bullets smell good too.) I shoot cast in .30 carbine/30/06 garand/30-30 and a multitude of pistols. I use wheel weights.....No leading.
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Old 08-13-2018, 10:11 PM
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^^^Yep, I make my own lube too, using beeswax, vaseline (50/50 mix) and a little STP. There are lots of formulas out there, and probably any of them are better than the hard commercial lubes.

In my experience, it is impossible to use a bullet that is too large in diameter. The bigger, the better, as far as cast bullets go. If it will chamber, your gun will size the bullet better than you can. It will not raise pressure at all.

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Old 08-15-2018, 05:14 PM
Qc Pistolero Qc Pistolero is offline
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Like mentionned above;people tend to rely upon bullet hardness while in some cases a hard bullet will contribute to leading.I've shot up to 1200fps chronoed with relatively soft bullets without leading.
To solve your problem,first check where in the gun the leading appears.If towards the muzzle,improper or not enough lubricant.
If at the forcing cone,bullet too small vs chamber mouths(in this case a harder bullet will make things worse).
Forcing cone ok but at the very beginning of the barrel;might be that the barrel has been crushed when screwed in the frame and at that place the bore dimension is too tight.Since lead has almost no springback capacity,leading will occur right after that smaller diameter ring.
Hope this helps.
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Old 08-15-2018, 05:59 PM
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If you are running under 1000fps with medium burners, you do not need or want hard cast bullets. Proper fit is first & a 0.358" is probably fine with the specs you have given. I would be looking at coated today. If bhn choices are offered, then something around 12bhn is plenty hard.
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Old 08-15-2018, 08:35 PM
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I had issues with leading, and listened to others advice of "fit". Slug you barrel and check your cylinders (make sure you cylinders aren't resizing/shrinking/swaying your bullets to too small). I've found that hardness is only part o the equation, and a smaller one than size/fit when it comes to leading. You'll get better accuracy, too!!

Another option is powder coated bullets. They're pretty cheap, too.
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Old 08-15-2018, 10:09 PM
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I tried the lead casting thing a few years back, it was time consuming and I didn't really find it that enjoyable. I do buy some lead now mostly around 16-18 hardness. I have been having good luck with the poly coated bullets, absolutely no leading, they are about the same cost as the lubed lead stuff, and just as accurate. I also like the pretty red color.
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Old 08-15-2018, 10:44 PM
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Lol, I use the red bullets, too!!! Makes for great recognition at the range as well. I cast because it's cheap, but totally understand if it's not your gig. It is time consuming, and unlike other people I don find it to be the "joy" of shooting.

The only real reason I got into reloading is 2 things. First: I'm a semi prepper. So knowing how to make as much as I can on my own appeals to me. Second: I hunt anything from dove to pigs, including coyote. Raccoon. Etc. So I have loads for not destroying fur, taking heavy pigs, etc. Reloading allows me to load from mild to wild. This is why I chose 357, from 000 buck gallery loads at low velocity (rabbit load) to 38 spl (for beaters like bobcat) to 357 for bigger stuff. Reloading offers a slew of options.
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Old 08-16-2018, 03:46 AM
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Just to add my voice, at those velocities you don't want bullets that are too hard. More leading is caused by bullets which are too hard than too soft. In your application a 12BHN will work well. If you are shooting indoors to with a Hi-Tek coated bullet to practically eliminate smoke.

I'm using cast bullets for my 38/357 and 45 ACP ammo and coated cast bullets for the 9mm.
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Old 08-16-2018, 11:03 AM
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Originally Posted by apollo99 View Post
I tried the lead casting thing a few years back, it was time consuming and I didn't really find it that enjoyable. I do buy some lead now mostly around 16-18 hardness. I have been having good luck with the poly coated bullets, absolutely no leading, they are about the same cost as the lubed lead stuff, and just as accurate. I also like the pretty red color.
Just me, but i have been casting my own on & off for 40y. I actually enjoy it over reloading. Turning scrap into shiny bullets has a certain HS chem class about it. Now with coatings, even better, like shooting plated bullets for a penny.
Like reloading, better gear makes all the diff. I use bottom pour pots & mostly 4-6cav molds. I run a magma caster too, either way, a good way to spend an hour or two for 1000 bullets.
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Old 08-16-2018, 02:29 PM
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Fit is # 1 . A quality lube is also important . 12 - 15 BHN is good enough unless you're exceeding 1500fps . I go even softer with GC bullets . Commercial casters that make good bullets with quality lube try Matt's , Rimrock , Montana Bullet Works .
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Old 08-16-2018, 02:55 PM
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Fit is # 1 . A quality lube is also important . 12 - 15 BHN is good enough unless you're exceeding 1500fps . I go even softer with GC bullets . Commercial casters that make good bullets with quality lube try Matt's , Rimrock , Montana Bullet Works .
Even then, pressure matters more than vel. My 45-70 happily runs 1500fps with softer bullets, it is lower pressure than any of the magnums revo rds..
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Old 08-26-2018, 11:33 PM
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After too many decades casting for Colt SAA and the like I've come to agree with Elmer Keith. BHN 10 (20:1 lead to tin) for anything under 1000 fps and 16:1 for loads up to 1200~1300. Desperado is the only supplier of BHN 10 bullets I can find and unfortunately they don't offer powder coating. MBC offers BHN 12 powder coated. But my best accuracy comes with the BHN 10 bullets and I've never had a problem with leading.
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Old 08-27-2018, 01:36 AM
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I shoot primarily swaged bullets, I don't have any leading problems.
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Old 08-27-2018, 06:29 AM
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Missorri bullets, Bayou, SNS , get the coated and dont mess with lubes.
BE 86 is the bees knees for medium loads and is basically specifically meant for coated bullets. In between unique and power pistol. Low flash , low smoke , low boom.. single digit SD's once you hit sweet spot. Been using it for 158 and 180 gr 357 loads.
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Old 08-27-2018, 06:32 AM
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I'd be looking at the mbc coated bullets that are 12bhn. You're looking at 38spl pressures, p+ pressure tops to get 850-950 from a 4" bbl'd 357.

Your expander in your reloading dies is extremely important. Most reloading dies are made/designed for jacketed bullets. Expanders made for cast/lead/swaged bullets are larger in diameter and longer. I use mostly lyman m-dies for my cast bullets. They are longer and have a step built into them that creates a shelf for the bullet to not only start strait (very important with lead/coated bullets), that shelf flares the case mouth enough to keep from shaving the sides of the cast/coated bullets.


A factory expander (top) that has a ring mark in it left from the case mouths of the cases it expanded. Next to (bottom) a lyman m-die, huge difference.


Pressures:
Anything under pressure goes to the least point of resistance. Seating a bullet has pressure & starting the bullet strait is important. The pressure exerted on the base of the bullet from the cases neck tension is also important. A soft bullet doesn't mean much if you use a expander that isn't capable opening the case deep enough so the base of the bullet isn't swaged down.
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Old 08-27-2018, 07:30 AM
Forrest r Forrest r is offline
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Default lead bullet alloys & lubes

For decades I've cast with nothing more than range scrap, clip on wheel weights (coww) with 90+% of the cast bullets being nothing more than range scrap/hill pickins/berm lead. Range scrap can be anything and is typically in the +/- 9bhn range. Water dropped cast bullets from range scrap will get into the +/- 12bhn range. I'd use this alloy for everything I could, if accuracy wasn't there I'd up the alloy by switching to coww's. COWW's were in the +/- 12bhn range and +/- 18bhn when water dropped. It is extremely rare to find a heavy load/bullet combo that would fail due to the alloy not being able to support the pressure of the load along with the rotational torque/stresses on the bullet's body with those 18bhn bullets.

The only time I'd have to use a mono-type/lead mix is with hot loads in long bodied rifle bullets. These bullets would typically be in the 16bhn to 20bhn range.

Bullet lube is one of the most mis-understood things about cast bullets. Bullet lube's primary job is to act like a gasket, sealing the bore. Secondary is leaving a film on the bore. If a lube can not seal the bore around the bullet it can not leave a film in the bore. For years I used nothing but the old nra 50/50 lube. It was dirty but it flat out worked. I had to get into the heavy rifle load range for that nra 50/50 lube to fail. I still use 3 different lubes to this day. Ben's red which is a home made soft lube (grease based) that really shines with loads in the 25,000psi or less range. I also use the 45/45/10 home made tumble lube that is made from lee tumble lube, johnson's paste wax & mineral spirits. The 45/45/10 is used on any 25,000psi or less load by itself or as a aid/booster to other coatings/lubes. The 3rd lube I use is LBT's hard blue lube. This is like the hard commercial lubes on the commercial cast bullets & I only use it on heavy/high pressure loads (25,000psi+).
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Old 08-27-2018, 08:03 AM
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Default The mechanics of a cast/coated bullet

The primer lights the powder and the powder creates pressure. Pressure goes to the least point of resistance. The bullet being the least point of resistance moves away from the pressure. As it goes down the cylinder the base/sides of the bullet start to obturate/expand to seal the cylinder hole. The pressure builds and the bullet exits the cylinder and enters the bbl. The bullet has to do the same thing, re-seal the bbl this time. As the bullet seals the bbl the pressure builds and is exerted on the bullets base and sides. This is where the bullets alloy becomes important. They came up with a formula to aid in picking a alloy's hardness for the pressure of the load. The # 1422, multiply the #1422 time the bhn of the bullet.

12bhn bullet x 1422 ='s 17,000psi load. That 17,000psi is the recommended minimum pressure for that 12bhn alloy'd bullet. This formula is only a ballpark/starting point. But it will give anyone an idea/place to start.

Different bullet designs for the same "keith" 44cal swc with both square and round grease grooves.

If you look at the grease grooves of the recovered bullets you will see that they are compressed compared to the un-fired bullets at the top of each type of bullet/grease groove.
Why the bullets compressed:
When the bullets entered the bbl they re-sealed the loss of pressure. As the pressure built (powder still burning) it pushed on the base of the bullet which compressed the grease groove. The hot gasses/pressure also flame cut the base of the bullet as it expanded it. The compression of the grease groove hydraulically forced the bullet lube outward & forward. The hot gasses/pressure pressurized the grease groove cavity and forced the lube outward and forward. This pushes the bullet lube forward past the front drive band/bands sealing (the lube acts like a gasket thing) the bbl and filling any imperfections between the bullet/bbl fit.

Can a hard commercial cast bullet with rock hard lube be used for 13,000psi/14,000psi loads? Absolutely!!! BUT, everything has to be just right for this to happen. In another thread on this forum a reloader used a 24bhn bullet in a 44spl that had a beveled base being pushed by a 12,000psi load. The end result was one heck of a carbon ring built up in less than 100 rounds.
24bhn ='s 34,000psi load minimum
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Old 08-27-2018, 09:00 AM
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There's a lot of things that affect the alloy/lube of a bullet. The design of the bullet itself, differences in firearms, etc.

Awhile back I did a little testing with a snubnosed 38spl (2" bbl). Used 5 different powders and 7 different bullets looking for high performance 38spl p+ loads.

I didn't use the lyman 358477 (bottom left/red) bullet because I wanted to test bullets in the 150gr/160gr weight range. The top performers, these bullets were as much as 50fps faster with the same loads.

They had higher velocities because they sealed that 2" bbl faster. Smaller based bullets wasted more pressure being pushed/compressing the grease groove. A bullets design/base has a lot to do with how a bullet performs. Bevel bases are the worst with cast bullets unless your either using them in target loads or they have a long body/short nose.

16bhn rifle bullets for a 308w

Doing head to head comparisons, lube vs coating
1st outing with lubed

Most reloaders would of looked at the target and decided the cast bullet reached it's limits. The bullet is the lee 312-160tl bullet that is designed to be tumble lubed. I lubed the bullet with LBT blue. So I took the same bullets lubed with LBT blue and put a coat of 45/45/10 tumble lube on them also and re-tested.

Yes lube affects accuracy, too little and no accuracy. No leading but no accuracy. That initial test with that lbt/lee bullet didn't lead the bbl. But a little more lube shrunk the groups in 1/2.
The pc's lee bullet on the other hand not only had higher velocities, they were more accurate.


Coated bullets don't need to find the correct alloy/load pressure/lube to have a high performance accurate load. The coating seals the bbl just like bullet lube. The difference is the coating is already there. It doesn't need to rely on the the correct load pressure to compress the correct alloy for that pressure to have the lube seal the bbl.
Did a little testing with a 44mag awhile back looking for plinking loads that would do 1 1/2" groups @ 25yds. Same powders, same bullets cast at the same time/alloy, same shooter, revolver, dies, etc.
With traditional cast lubed bullets I had 3 loads that weould hold the 10-ring on a nra target @ 25yds. With the same bullets that were powder coated I ended up with 13 loads that would hold the 10-ring on the nra 25yd target. 3 v13 is huge!!!!

I'm sure I could of easily found more loads, it actually got boring.

8bhn/9bhn bullets and powder coating and size the bullets correctly:

1100fps/25,000psi load for the 9mm using 125gr cast pc'd bullet that are 9bhn sized to .358

16,000psi/900fps 38spl loads shot from a 357 using 158gr 9bhn cast pc'd bullets sized to .358

18,000psi/930fps 44mag target loads using 200gr wc's cast with 9bhn alloy, pc'd

With any of those soft alloy'd pc'd bullet I can easily do 200+ round range sessions and not have to clean anything. No carbon ring, nothing/nada.

Too many people overthink the whole cast bullet/leading thing. Soft bullet, good fit & either good lube of coating is all you need. I've ran 16bhn cast bullets up to 2900fps in my 308w. Countless 1000's of casters have used nothing more than free ww's (12bhn) for all their lead bullets needs for decades putting countless billions of bullets down range.
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Old 09-01-2018, 11:22 PM
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Forrest r, what method are you using to powder coat your bullets? I am new to powder coating, and I can't get a nice even coating like yours have. Any tips would be appreciated.
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Old 09-02-2018, 06:24 AM
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Forrest r, what method are you using to powder coat your bullets? I am new to powder coating, and I can't get a nice even coating like yours have. Any tips would be appreciated.
Nothing more than the shake & bake method with #5 containers & black airsoft bb's. I do use a high quality powder and put it on heavy. Heavy enough that it adds right at 2 mill to the bullet's diameter. The other thing I do is pre-heat the toaster oven & once it get's up to temp I start baking the coating onto the bullets. I also bake each batch for 15 minutes @ 400*.

I've had the coating come out uneven/bumpy, it was from either too little powder, oven not hot enough or the bullets weren't in the oven long enough at the correct temperature.
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Old 09-02-2018, 08:55 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Warren Sear View Post
Forrest r, what method are you using to powder coat your bullets? I am new to powder coating, and I can't get a nice even coating like yours have. Any tips would be appreciated.
This is how I do it.

Tools:

Convention toaster oven for curing your bullets.

I prefer the convection oven because it heats more evenly. You can pick one up at a resale store on the cheap or just buy a new one for around $30 to $40 depending on what you like. ONLY use the oven for curing powder coated bullets or heat treating bullets from that point on NEVER use it to cook food in afterwards. If the oven is not digital and controlled by an internal PID get yourself an oven baking thermometer (WallyWorld for $7) to set your temperature dial as close as possible, most toaster ovens heat much hotter than the dial indicates. Set your oven to keep a constant temperature at around 400 degrees, if the temp runs +/- 25 degrees it wants hurt anything you just don't want it to get to high or to cool.


Plastic container for tumbling bullets in.

You will need one or more #5 plastic containers and lids depending on if you want to do more than one color, screw on types are the best but snap on lid types like I use work fine to. I use these two types of #5 container I recycle from home along with multi color plastic pony beads I get at WallyWorld for $1.50 per pack, they are large enough that they want get stuck in my big 45 ACP HP's. The combination has worked well for me to generate lots of static electricity to attract the powder to the bullets. One thing of note is that LOW HUMIDITY is your friend as it will make generating static electricity easy, I like it to be 40% or lower. At times I've had to coat my bullets in the house and take them out to my reloading shed to cure.

#5 container from local restaurants.


Great Value Yogurt container.

Pony Beads.


In the small container I place enough beads to fill the bottom about 1" deep, in the larger container I add enough to fill it between 1" an 2" but no more than that. I add about 1/2 TSP of powder to the container with the beads and shake it up for about 30 sec. notice how it already starts to stick to the beads and sides of the container. I always start out with 1/2 TSP if you need to add more powder to get the desired coat only add another 1/4 TSP to the mix as too much powders will clump on the bullets and you will have to tap it off before placing them on the baking tray. It's easy to add a little more powder to get a fine coating than having too much to start with.




Next I add the bullets. Make sure they are clean of any dirt, oil or lube or any contaminates that might be on your hands as the powder will not stick. I like to wash mine in 100% Acetone and wear nitrile groves when handling bullets I plan on coating. I generally add around 50 to 75 bullets to the container depending on caliber and weight close the lid and shake in all directions for around 30 seconds. I used black air soft BB's that I had with the clear powder coat and they work great with clear, not so much with some other colors I've used but the pony beads will work with all colors.



After about 30 seconds of shaking I tap the lid to knock any powder off the inside and look at my bullets to see how they are coated. If they pass my inspection they should look like this or the ones in the white clear coat above.



Next I take my baking sheet and line it with a piece of Reynolds Non-Stick aluminum foil, non-stick side up, there are cheaper brands of that type foil but I think the Reynolds works best and I get around 7 to 10 uses out of a sheet before I toss it, other like silicone baking mats but powder residue tends to build up over time on those so I just use the foil. I take a pair of long tweezers and place all my bullets base first onto the foil, it takes some time to do it this way but I can easily have the next tray of bullets ready to cure by the time the first batch is done. Many just dump the bullets into a screens tray,shake off the excess powder and dump them on the foil and bake, but I like the results I get standing them up individually and the powder flow and migrates evenly with no lumps or flat spots. Then I pop them in a 400 degree preheated oven for 20 min. Then I size and gas check as needed.

Powders I like to use.

Smokes Yellow / Green, Super Durable Clear or Carolina or Signal Blue are all excellent powders to coat with. Smoke will sell you a pound of powder divided into 3 1/3rd lb. of any of his colors if you like but these are the colors I like and that have worked for me the best with no fuss.

VS - Hi quality Powder for DT or Spraying bullets

Eastwood powders I like.

Hotcoat Powder Coat Lime Green

Hotcoat Powder Coat Ford LIght Blue

Hotcoat Powder Coat Maroon

Hotcoat Powder Coat Medium Green


A few notes on cast bullet air cooled or quenched from the mold and how the curing process will anneal the cast lead bullets using an alloy that responds to water quenching or heat treating. Your results may vary depending on the original alloy used and the as cast BHN and at the time the bullets BHN is tested.

1. If you air cool your bullets when cast then PC them an allow them to air cool again the second time there is no change in the as cast BHN of the bullet.

2. If you air cool your bullets when cast then PC them and quench them right out of the toaster oven they will gain a hardness of about 75% over the as cast BHN.

3. If you quench your bullets out of the mold to begin with then PC them and allow them to air cool they will soften around 50% from the original first quenching BHN.

4. If you quench your bullets out of the mold to begin with then PC them and quench them right out of the toaster oven a second time you only loose around 15% hardness from the first quenching.


Some good videos





Last edited by reloader7.62; 09-02-2018 at 09:03 AM.
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Old 09-02-2018, 01:55 PM
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Thank you, gentlemen; that is exactly what I was looking for!
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Old 09-02-2018, 04:43 PM
reddog81 reddog81 is offline
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I do a pretty similar process to reloader7.62 except not quite as many steps. I don't worry about cleaning the bullets and have had bullets sitting in my basement for months accumulating dust and dog fur with no ill effects other than having to pluck dog hair out of the powder.

I use a 2 foot tall pvc pipe with end caps for a container for shaking and dump them all into a colander to shake off all the excess powder. I can do over 400 bullets at a time in the pipe.
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