Well, I ended up terminating a Digital Chrono last week, trying to test my latest 38+P load with a 125 Golden Saber. Found the intact bullet after it passed through the chrono and hit the concrete wall (at a much reduced velocity). Bullet weighs in at 124gr of the original 125gr, just flattened by the wall.

Got a replacement and tried to chrono again, in early morning. Could not get any accurate readings (see below). Suspect the glare of the low sun was messing with things.

• Velocity readings from 4566fps to 98fps.
• Appears that the Golden Sabers may be opening up inflight.
• Just guessing, but think maybe 11-1200fps out of my 2in Kimber.
• Load is 8.0gr HS6 on CCI#550 primers. 38+P

Anyway,take a look at the target. It looks like the Golden Sabors had opened up some BEFORE striking the paper target. Hmm... You can see the petals of the bullet's "flower".

So... what's the verdict on my +P load?

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	8-15-2018 125g Golden Saber 8gr HS6.jpg (113.5 KB, 180 views)

Hollow Points don't open up in the air. Especially 38 SPL.

Are you saying you shot your chronograph?

The verdict on your +P load is to stick with the manufacturer's factory load.

As noted, JHP need a hydraulic event to expand. What you are seeing is tearing by the flat nose profile of the jhp. If you are getting odd chrono readings, you are probably shooting too close & blast is setting off the 1st screen. I shoot no closer than 10ft, 15ft with magnums or rifles.

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NRA Cert. Inst. IDPA CSO

I agree. I also noted quite a dusting of spent powder on top of the chrono and that is why I backed up. I don't really like shooting DA too far from the chrono. I think that is why/how I took out the chrono last week. I did back off to about 12-13ft from the chrono (and ~12yd from target) and got those ~100fps shots and a number of errors in recording.

FWIW, I now have a LabRadar unit headed my way. Cost me 6 Harley Bucks, but I think it will be worth it. Especially since I won't have to aim "through it" and only shoot "next" to it.

Pretty hot load. Hodgdon list 7.8gr as max for +p with std primer and gives velocity as 1138fps out of a 7.7” barrel. Doubt you are getting that out of a 2” barrel, but who knows. IIRC the factory GS gives me about 900fps out of a 3” barrel. Penetrates and mushrooms beautifully.

I think I may try these loads out with my 627 2.62in. That way I can go SA and not endanger another digital chrono

My neighbor keeps complaining and the local LE made another visit. He's jealous of my setup and envious of my anal retentive safety routine. Had a great visit and talk. I live in a very rural county and am within all laws with my little gun range. neighbor thinks she can just keep B&M-ing.

Oh, and I think it is Hornady that lists 8.1gr as max. FWIW, I know this load works very well with the 125XTPs in 38+P. It is just that the XTPs don't expand at 38+P velocitys, but with the 4in .357 they expand beautifully. Check out Luckygunners Ballistics Tests Great info...

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Well, I'd still get a piece of armor plate to put in front of it.

I agree the luckygunner test does have some great info. In fact, that's what got me turned on to the Golden Saber. To me in the +P test, it stood out as the winner or at least near the top. Only hold back I see is possibly the lower weight bullet, but penetration and expansion were great. I found out they actually make 2 different 125gr GS Bullets, one for .38 and one for .357 for reloading. I bought some of the .38 design tried to "improve" on the factory loaded rounds but Remington seems to have the right formula. Out of a 3" K frame, you can make them expand a little more but penetration is not as good and if you get more penetration, the expansion suffers. So for around $20 per box of 50, I will just keep a few boxes around.

Well I got my LabRadar in and decided to check it out, AND to re-crimp my ~75rd of .38 125 Golden Saber reloads.

I adjusted the Lee crimp die from a half-turn in (light crimp) to a 3/4-turn in for a heavier crimp. That seems to have done the trick, to eliminate all of that blow-by I was dealing with. I also compared this reload with some 125xtp with the same 8.0gr HS6 w/CCI#550. Both tables were only 6-shots each but at least it gives me some data to work with. BTW, my 125 Golden Saber data matches that on LuckyGunner.com for a .38+P Golden Saber.

Oh, and I really, really like my new LabRadar...! Wow, what a difference knowing that I won't be shooting any more chronographs

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I was hoping those HOT 38 +P loads were being shot out of a K frame
or heavier frame weapon.

Way back I had the 125 up to 1200 plus out of a 38 case, that shot well but with the high end case loss,
I switched to the longer 357 cases.

I never had a copper jacket frag on the way to a target, during all my test....
even had a basic plated 9mm bullet up to 1350fps w/o it coming apart.

However you never know what a bullet will do.

I have yet to kill a chrony but with all the shotguns, rifles and short weapons
that I have tested...........
I know that I have probably come close.

I don't see 8.1 GR in the 38+P anywhere. My 2013 Hodgdon does show 7.8 GR. Hornady 4th Edition shows 7.2 GR max as +P. I take it you're shooting out of magnum revolvers so as magnum loads are a lot higher I expect you're just fine. Why not use magnum brass? I also seriously doubt your rounds were opening up in flight.

Nice little range setup. I'd love a Labradar but I sure could buy a bunch of other stuff for that money.

I like the little Kimber more each time I see it. But darn that thing is pretty pricey too.

Never shot my screens, but shooting at the guts of the equip has always bothered me. Why I have an Oehler. The CED is also a good unit but if I was spending on an Oehler today I would go Labradar.

__________________
NRA Cert. Inst. IDPA CSO

I've got the 9th Edition Hornady, so it appears that the HS6 .38+P has been increased, up to 8.1gr with an estimated speed of 1,000fps with 125xtp.

As far as my "not using magnum brass",... I have enough 158xtp, 125xtp, brass, plus 8lb of N105 powder to load 5-6k .357 (maybe more) and am getting just under 1,400fps with the 158xtp using N105. Who could want more with those kind of numbers.

My 4in 686 is my "fun to shoot" revolver and I'll get back to it after I finalize my best .38+P loads for carry and SD. But even after that, I'll still probably only "carry" the commercial stuff, to be a good citizen and all.

Thanks for the kudos on the home range and Kimber. This thing is SOoo..much smoother and as a result, my accuracy has really increased with the Kimber... as opposed to my 642 J-Frame. I have a spring kit for the 642, but haven't got around to installing yet. They both can fit in the same holster, but another bought a new one anyway.

I didn't feel like going to the range at all, but I had some testing I wanted to do. I wounded my chrono with a deep graze and a hit on the screen rods. Still works, but I need somebody to hit me over the head if I go feeling that lousy.

I REALLY like the 9mm Golden Sabers to the point that it's my defense ammo. I haven't tried .38 special, but if they will expand out of a snub I'll use 'em. Right now it's Speer short barrel.


Wow. Golden Sabers out of a 2" barrel look great! .62" expansion. Jeez!

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"He was kinda funny lookin'"

I went back and increased the crimp on my 125 Golden Saber reloads w/8.0gHS6 and all is now well. No more blow-by and I am now getting nearly identical velocities out of my 2in Kimber that matches LuckyGunner results.

So... ...yesterday I reloaded another 100rd with the same. Happy camper time...

Now I need to shoot up some more of my commercial RNs and JHPs to free up some more brass!

off topic question, but could you tell me what grip is on the 4inch(?) revolver on the right, thanks

In my image, it is a CT for an L-Frame on my 686 4in. Had Pachmayrs for over +30yr... Bought the CTs for cheap dry-fire practice of DA firing. Saves big $$$.

I've never been a fan of hs-6 in the 38spl's, your tests mirror mine that I did back in the 80's. SD's in the 100fps+ range is ok for plinking ammo but flat out sucks when it comes to sd/hd reloads.

Your running right at +/- 150fps with that hs-6/125gr xtp combo in those 38spl cases.

You have the ability to do testing with different primer/powder combo's seeings how you have different firearms that shoot/use the same caliber.

FWIW:
I typically buy a contender bbl for every pistol caliber that I own. The contenders have sledgehammer primer hits which ='s consistent ignition. None the same thing with 22lr's for decades also & buy a case of ammo at a time after testing lots. I find a lot of 22lr ammo that will have a sd in the teens with a known firearm. Then I bring the known firearm to the range with that ammo and the new firearm/firearm in question and run 50 or 60 rounds of the test lot of ammo over a chronograph with both firearms. Don't care about accuracy, just looking for sd's that are close. If the known firearm runs in the teens and the firearm in question is in the 20's/30's I know there is a mechanical issue's with the firearm in question.
Your revolvers are no different. You should test different reloads until you find a combo that has a low es/sd and then test all your firearms with it. Test primers to find out what works best in all of your firearms for the cartridge your reloading for/testing. And re-test any time you make changes to a firearm like spring changes for example. I use clays for my test loads in the 9mm/38spl/357/44spl/44mag/45acp

Once you've established your firearm doesn't have any mechanical issues you can get down to some real world testing. Myself I do initial testing with any bullet/powder combo with strings of shots in the muzzle up then lower and fire. Then muzzle down and bring the firearm up and fire. Then things like changing crimp, load, primer come into play then re-testing.

You're going to find that high energy powders like titegroup/bluedot/power pistol/true blue/etc do extremely well in low pressured cartridges like the 38spl/44spl/45acp. They also do better with a wide range of bullet weights. The slower burning traditional powders tend to do better with heavy bullets/heavy crimp in the low pressure cartridges.

I do testing every couple years with the different snubnosed revolvers. This last year I did testing with the snubnosed 38spl & 44spl. I used these bullets in that test with the 2" bbl'd 38spl with p+ loads. They weighed from 130gr to 160gr.


There was as much as +50fps difference in bullets, same load/different bullet. The top performers consistently with the 5 different powders I used/tested with were these bullets.

What they have in common is that they sealed the cylinders & bbl and didn't let gasses blow by their longer/stronger bases (the 148gr hbwc turned backward & the large bottom drive banded lswc hp) of the gc or the jacket. That home swaged jacketed 150gr hp & the 150gr lyman 358156 cast swc gc hp were running just under 1000fps with full house loads of power pistol in that 2" bbl'd snubnosed 38spl. I throttled the load back to 950fps & it had a es in the +/- 40fps.

That chronograph is your friend & will answer a lot of different questions. All you have to do is ask. I'm not saying there's anything wrong with any of your firearms. +/- 150fps is pretty extreme for a es. You might consider dialing all your firearms for that caliber in so that they all are in the same area with the sd/es.

Forrest r,
I'm sure that you noticed that recent data on my Golden Sabers consisted of JUST 6-Shots. We all know that that is not enough to actually paint a completely accurate performance graph. Having just one outlier of 6-shots raised the Std.Dev. from 14.792 to 56.57 resulting in a surprisingly large change.

I will eventually repeat my tests with 20-25, or more, shots per string or more in each, in order to fine tune. That alone, should help minimize the effect of outliers.

I've seen wild variation in readings when the battery in the chrono was failing.
-Mark

I have found a shady spot at my range. My Chrony loves it. If you can get yours in a spot with good but not bright light your reading errors may stop.
Good Luck.
Jim

I recently bought the LabRadar unit. yeah, $600.00 but worth it IMO. No longer have to worry about shooting DA-only revolvers too close to the chrono sensors at a distance. SA is a piece of cake, but DA...

It's not the sd's in those 6 shots. It's the 150fps es in those 6 shots that should be of concern. You can shoot 20 shots 50 shots 100 shots the es isn't going to change. 150fps is 150fps

A difference of 150fps between shots is huge. It's the difference between a hp doing what it's supposed to do and failing. Hence my post

Forrest r, I have to ask . In your pics, what is the top left "bullet" in the first pic and the right "bullet" in the second ?

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1st smiles,lies.Last,gunfire.

My question,showing my ignorance, is what is a "harley buck"? Is that a male deer run over by an Electroglide?

Those are a home swaged version of an xtp hp bullet. They are made from lead cores and either 380acp cases or 9mm cases that are used for jackets. Anymore I use 380acp cases to make those 150gr hp's. And use 9mm cases to make a 170gr wfn bullet.


The 150gr hp's are designed to do extremely well at low velocities. Commercial ammo mfg's would call it a short bbl'd sd load. It's the length/depth of the pleats on the xtp nose and the depth/size of the hole in the hp coupled with the alloy of the lead core that mandates how a hp will perform. I can make the same bullet and use a 12bhn core and the hp will take at least another 100fps to open/perform as it should. The pleats in the hp also control expansion. Some 265gr hp's made from 40s&w cases that have short shallow pleats in the hpt hp nose.

That bullet was designed for hunting deer with the kill zone/hits in the 75yd to 100yd range. Testing that bullet to simulate a 75yd hit, hot load drops to 1100fps @ 75yds. Hense the 1100fps 25yd test in wetpack.


There's free brass laying everywhere at the ranges I go to along with free lead from the berms. Those things can easily be turned into free jacketed bullets that are actually not only accurate. They perform at extremely high levels. These 225gr bullets for the 45acp's are made from 40s&w cases and put the smack on anything they get a hold of.

No post about using old cases for bullet jackets for swaged bullets wouldn't be complete without the 22lr cases used for 22cal jackets to feed the ar's.


Sorry for the thread drift. Swaging jacketed bullets can be entertaining at times.

Look, trying to assme too much from just SIX shots is more than just a bit much...

HOWEVER... following your lead, one could/should throw out the single 1017fps outlier (obviously) and then the remaining five shots have an ES of just 40fps and with that a StdDev. of 14.792, and you have an issue with that...?

BTW, this was the FIRST time I have gotten the crimp correct and my FIRST time for reloading 125 Golden Sabers, as well as my FIRST time to eliminate the blow-by issue with this cannelure-less bullet.

Geez, and YOU infer that I should have known better from the get-go... HUH?!

Relax, your happy I'm happy.
You put the data out there & I merely looked at it and commented on it.