This continues to get more interesting and more frustrating by the day. So, after using everything known to modern man to clean the supposed lead buildup in the cylinder of my 629, I finally capitulated and took it to a local gunsmith of some renown. Yesterday, he called. "Been looking at your gun and the couple of your reloads you broth with you. You don't have any lead buildup in your cylinder or your bore." Great, says I. Then what's the problem? "It's your brass. It's too long. You need to trim your brass". Hmmm, says I, I've never trimmed a piece of pistol brass before. "Oh, yes, gotta do it". OK, fine, I'll come get my gun. So that's what I did.

I checked three reloading books. Lyman 49th, Speer #14 and Hornady 8th. They all say, maximum case length 1.285", trim to 1.275" for .44mag. Out with the caliper. I measured 6 Winchester pieces of brass and got 1.273, 1.272, 1.271, 1.275, 1.274, 1.261. Hmmm, they're all at or below 1.275. Surely doesn't look as if they should need trimming. Now, they won't seat in the cylinder either. And, to make it more interesting, or boring (your choice), both my finished rounds and the empty brass go in perfectly in a case guage. I mean perfectly.

Did quite a bit of reading last evening on the necessity of trimming pistol brass. What I got out of it was 99.9% of the people never have to or want to trim pistol brass. There's quite a good thread right here on this forum.

So, what should be my next move guys? I don't have any never fired .44mag brass so I can't try that. I'm just wondering is it not meant for me to reload for this caliber? Suggestions please! Everyone has really tried to help me out on this and I will appreciate continued suggestions.

Scanned the previous thread and are you saying you shot 187 Specials then shot 87 Magnums, cleaned the gun and then the Mags won't chamber?

The 44 Magnum is prolly my most reloaded caliber (even more than the 38 Special) and I have 5 guns chambered for it., and I have never experienced your "problem". I have reloaded everything from 432" balls over a dusting of Bullseye to 300 gr RNFP over near max. loads of WC820 and have yet to trim a case. I would prolly try a few different approaches, like very close inspection and possibly measuring the cylinder chambers to measuring my handloads. You gun worked fine with 274 rounds before, what is different now?

I reread your original post "NOW, no .44Mag rounds will seat enough in the cylinder to allow it to close. Neither will 240gr Hornady XTP factory rounds". If the Hornady factory loads that chambered and shot before cleaning will no longer chamber, then your problem IS NOT cases that need to be trimmed.

Do the rounds fail to chamber, or do they chamber but the cylinder will not close?

If the rounds chamber, but the cyl won't close then the ejector rod is unscrewing or there is debris under the extractor star. High primers or thick rims/tight head space might also cause a problem (highly unlikely in that everything worked the first time).

Can't think of any reason why the Hornady factory loads chambered and fired originally, but after cleaning they won't. If it were only your reloads, then seating and crimping at the same time will sometimes create a ring of lead at the crimp bullet juncture which impedes seating. Also, to much crimp will sometimes collapse the case resulting in a bulge causing a chambering problem.

I AGREE WITH PAUL. IF YOU SCRUPULOUSLY CLEANED YOUR CYLINDER, AND YOU CAN'T FULLY SEAT FACTORY AMMO---THE PROBLEM HAS TO BE WITH THE EJECTOR ROD OR THE EXTRACTOR STAR....

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'Nam 1968-69.DAV,VFW,NRA Inst.

I'm thinking a new gunsmith is in order, too.

WILDPIG

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I ain't from around here.

Yes, that's correct. This thing has turned into a nightmare but that's what I did. Shot the mags first and then the 187 rds of spl. I've never measured the length of an empty piece of brass. Why should I have to? I know rifle is a completely different game but nowhere have I ever heard about pistol brass. To tell the truth until the gunsmith brought it up I had never paid any attention the the reloading manuals having a "max length" and a "trim to length" for pistol. But, they do.

I just pulled out a box of Hornady 240gr .44mags and every one of them seated perfectly and the cylinder closed fine. It's rather difficult to measure the case on a loaded round but as best as I could tell most of those cases were down in the 1.152" range. So how am I going to order brass and specify that it can't exceed a certain length? I can tell you this that every piece of empty brass that I have now is way longer than the Hornady brass but it all falls in the "trim to length" of what the loading manuals call for. I don't even know how to measure the cylinder chambers.

I was getting ready to order some new brass but now I hesitate for fear of facing the same thing.

You asked what is different now than when I fired the other rounds. Absolutely nothing.

The ejector rod is screwed in tightly and there is no debris under the extractor star. In fact, this has got to be the cleanest revolver know to man right now after going through all this.

I think the gunsmith if more than likely correct in his diagnosis but that really sucks having to think about measuring every single piece of brass that goes into the press. Of course I've been thinking about asking for a Ruger .44spl for my birthday. I could always do that or just shoot .spl in the 629. Bummer!!

Can you post a picture of the reloads that won't chamber -- need close up of bullet/crimp juncture and the entire round.

Paul

Let's define exactly what it is we are talking about.

Is the question about, when you shoot .44 Specials in a .44 magnum, there is difficulty loading .44 magnums into the chamber afterward?

That is completely normal. After shooting .44 specials, Gunk, powder, lube, etc. form at the mouth of the chamber and often keeps the longer .44 magnum cartridge from seating fully. It's not 'leading' and can be easily cleaned out with a bore brush.

NOW, if are we talking about some other problem than described above, please state specifically and clearly what leads up to the chambering problem and whether you are talking about .44 Special or .44 Magnum ammo.and in what order.

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"He was kinda funny lookin'"

your really narrowing it down to either the length of the bullet sticking too far out of the case, or oversized diameter of the lead from the factory {Bad box} or a bur on the rim of the cartridge. {assuming the crimp isn't rolled not into the groove}

Okay so the ejector rod is snug and it is clean under the extractor. All ammo case gauges, but won't fit in your 629?
So, where is the hang up?
When you load the cylinder do the cartridges go all the way in?
Can you not swing the loaded cylinder closed?

Maybe one step at a time.
How are you de-priming your fired rounds?
When you flare to seat your bullet has the tip of the die come loose and it is traveling too far into the case and expanding it too far in depth?
Your case gage may be a bit more forgiving than your cylinder.

I am thinking something in your reloading dies or settings on them has gone astray.
Karl

1,2745 factory Speer 240GR Gold Dot HP.
1.2765 Midway brass that's been loaded a bunch of times with RimRock 240GR LSWC.
1.273 Speer once? fired brass loaded with Zero 240GR JFP.
1.273 at least once fired Federal brass loaded with Zero 240GR JFP.

All measured as best as possible from crimped case mouth.
All drop into the chambers of my fairly dirty 629-4 3" Trail Boss. I think you're using a snubbie 629, right?

It has to be crud under the star or the ejector rod backing out (or bent?)
With the cylinder open can you pull the cylinder latch back easily? Does the pin move with it?

I've never trimmed revolver brass. The case mouth will generally start to crack or split before that's necessary.

The next thought would be along these lines. Did you just leave the flaring set up the same for both mag a special cases because then it looked to be working. Instead it is going too deep and over expanding on the Mag case. To the point the crimp doesn't reset the case.

Sorry, I will have to continue later. Have an unexpected appointment I have to make. Thanks for your interest and help.

You guys went down the rabbitt hole. Factory hornady rounds arent working in his cylinder either.

This all makes NO sense


If FACTORY ammo fits and closes THEN there is a problem with RELOADS


Probably over crimping or seating and bulging the case head area.


I think a Flow Chart is needed
rwsmith was on the right track, it's all to convoluted now.

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Still Running Against the Wind

See post #6 - Factory rounds fit

I have NEVER trimmed pistol brass for length , even after many many reloads and yes I have been shooting the 44 magnum for eons . There is something else going on here . If it shoots factory stuff fine but the reloads are a problem , then the problem is the reloads . Maybe the cast bullets are too large for the cylinder charge holes . I feel the " key " here is to make sure it loads / shoots factory ammo . I believe factory bullets are sized .429 . If , indeed factory ammo shoots fine , then I would get some bullets , the same size for my reloads . Make one " dummy round " , no primer or powder and see if it slides in the cylinder . If it does , then try one dummy round sized .430 cast bullet and see if it will slide in the cylinder . The above " dummy rounds " are using magnum brass that you would normally reload . If the factory ammo loads/shoots just fine but a larger size dummy round will not then you have some tight charge holes in your cylinder . I size my cast bullets .431 for all my 44's with no sign of bindng . Hope this helps , Regards, Paul

If you do need a really good gunsmith , check with " Dennis Reichard " @ Sand Burr Ranch , in Rochester , Indiania . Dennis is a real master with Smith revolvers and a huge fan of their 44 magnums . He is the man I would send it to if a trip is required . Good Luck , Paul

Here are some pictures of my reloaded .44Mag rounds. Thesis to follow if I can still remember it all.

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I'm sorry that you don't appear to be any better at this type of photography than I am. The pic is blurry.

Using my blur interpretation googles it appears the case is bulged from from improper bullet seating or crimping. Very possibly over crimping but the pic is really too blurry to tell for sure.

Don't take my pic criticism personal. I can't seem to do any better.

Are you seating and crimping in one step? Looks like you might have the crimp started before the bullet is fully seating and creating a ripple in the brass that is binding.
Try seating a bullet then going back to do the crimp, start a little lighter at first then adjust accordingly.
Karl

If you measure your case and then do exactly what you did here you may find you have somewhat 'crushed' or 'shortened' your case length due to this process. That material is what is bulging out near the final crimp which looks quite aggressive.

No, seating and crimping are done separately on the 550.

It doesn't look correct. Put a straight edge up against the case from case head up past your crimp, see if it doesn't point out a bulge in the case near your crimp area?
Or take a marker and color the area from top of case down a bit and then put in cylinder and when it binds rotate it back and forth and see if any of the marked area is worn off?
Karl

Crimp looks heavy and buckling the case as mentioned..

been there myself..

As I said based on that picture you have mutilated, mashed the case mouth in the crimp area. You need to adjust your dies.


Post better pictures of more than one to verify.

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Still Running Against the Wind

Maybe more can be seen from these pictures.

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Listen to Karl pay no attention to gunsmith it's purely a loading problem

I don't want to insult you by being too basic so ignore if you wish but this is my seating/crimping adjustment method.

I seat and crimp in one die on my 550. I only do it separately if I'm using a taper crimp and I only do that on semi-auto rounds.

I get one case sized, primed, flared and charged with powder. I then move it to my seating/crimp station and place a bullet on the flared case.

Before doing any crimping or seating I back out the die so there will be NO crimp action at all and then slowly adjust the seater until I have the proper seat depth. Then I back out the seater, way out.

I then start adjusting the crimp until I get the proper crimp on the already seated bullet.

Then with the cartridge fully rammed in the crimp die, I adjust the seater back down until it hits the bullet.

That gets me very close. I generally fine tune the depth a tiny bit after the next cartridge as the bullet tip gets slightly deformed during the adjustment process, throwing off my calculation, but not by much.

Ditto on trimming revolver brass etc...
Don't load that much 44 ATM...But here's my 2 cents worth...
For pistol cal reloading one item I "invested" in for both 38 and 45 cal is a Lee Factory Crimp die - MAKES AN AMAZING DIFFERENCE - Rnds just drop into the cylinder under gravity. Wish I'd bought 'em years ago...
Also...looks like y'all have some accurate measuring equipment?
i.e. to 4 decimal places?...Have you measured the case dia at the crimp? I found that 0.0001/0.0002in in that area can make difference...some revolvers have real tight chamber and breech face tolerances.
Good Luck
DCC

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DCCUK

OK well it looks uniform that each one is hanging up in the same area
Can you 'wiggle' the base of the cartridge when in this position? Meaning that it isn't the base that is binding as it goes to seat?

Karl

Hey, no way you're insulting me. You can write volumes on what I don't know about reloading. So, do you have to use another kind of die to accomplish all this at one station?

No, you cannot wiggle the base of the cartridge. It is tight against the cylinder. I just picked out 6 more rounds at random from a hundred round box and actually got one to seat completely into the cylinder which closed. This round would have fired. To me this means that there's a critical degree of variation in the OAL or that of the cylinder.

The picture you posted of the single cartridge-it looks like the case is buckled as has already been mentioned in a previous post. Probably from not enough flare in the case and pushing the bullet down buckling the case.

I would find a friend that reloads and get them over to help adjust the dies and see if that helps!
Ed

Looks to me like you are over crimping and collapsing the area just below the crimp groove. The reason you managed to chamber one reload is that you either short stroked the press or the case is shorter than the others (resulting in less crimp).

Back you crimp die out and using only one round, keep adjusting the crimp die until you get all of the flare out of the case, have a light to moderate roll crimp, and can easily chamber the round.

You are using 200 gr bullets and a light powder charge, you don't need a heavy crimp.

Paul

I had a problem getting revolver cartridges to fully seat in the chamber. Some would only go about 2/3 of the way in. I was crimping too hard. Even when I separated seating and crimping operations I crimped too hard and bulged the case. When I first started I thought, "Well this is a reloading PRESS, so PRESS IT. I was almost incurably heavy handed with the Rock Chucker. I've saved some by 'doctoring' finished rounds extensively, mostly by pulling the bullet and putting the case back in the 'ready to load' bucket.

What really bugged me is the inordinate amount of time I spent on getting this right. I'm too heavy handed in a lot of things, but that was ridiculous.

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"He was kinda funny lookin'"

So if you decap and resize then at that point does the case drop into the cylinder freely? Just again making sure there is no bulge toward the base that is hanging up, not likely but be sure.

As others are seeing and suggesting it seems to be in your current crimp process that is the culprit, take the die out, internally inspect it for a build up of crud inside or an adjustment that is incorrect for this step. Just crimp enough to tighten up the flared mouth and see if it drops in OK. Then if so, add a bit more crimp and check again. The neck tension will do most all of the bullet holding, crimp is needed but over crimping will damage the bullet and cause other case issues.

Good luck, you are close to getting it figured out!
Karl

I may even have a 44 Lee factory crimp die around somewhere. I bought them for several calibers awhile back but I think it was mostly rifle calibers, but maybe. I've been happily using the same dies for ~30 years.

1,2745 factory Speer 240GR Gold Dot HP. .452 @ crimp.
1.2765 Midway brass that's been loaded a bunch of times with RimRock 240GR LSWC. .452 @ crimp.
1.273 Speer once? fired brass loaded with Zero 240GR JFP. .454 @ crimp
1.273 at least once fired Federal brass loaded with Zero 240GR JFP. .455 @ crimp.

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I'm just using a cheap (old) Lee 4 die carbide set. Of course I'm using the Dillon powder funnel/expanding die rather than the Lee powder through expanding die.

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I know you've said the chambers are clean of lead. However, it's been my experience that the lead in the cylinder can sometimes get polished rather than removed and as a result it can be extremely hard to see, looking just like the steel it's stuck to. Been there.

Tell ya what guys. Think I'm going to put this one to bed for tonight and think more about it tomorrow. I feel pretty certain that the consensus points toward an overcrimping issue. I will be posting more. Thanks so much for everyone's suggestions.

One last thought -- did you adjust your crimp die for .44 Mags after you loaded the .44 specials? Your picture almost looks like the crimp die is set for .44 specials.

NO, not really.
You are making this harder than it needs to be.

Pictures of the actual load rounds, not hidden in the cylinders.

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Still Running Against the Wind

I trim my revolver cases knowing that many others don't. Trimming makes the case lengths uniform which results in uniform crimps. Any case length between min and max will usually result in a proper crimp. Revolver chambers are pretty forgiving with respect to crimps since headspacing is at the rims. It's usually over-crimping that is the culprit. Over-crimping can bulge the casemouth making rounds hard to chamber. Over-crimping leads to shortened case life as casemouth splits happen sooner. If in doubt as to how much crimp, check your crimp against a factory round. I know everyone knows this so I won't go any further. This is how I do it, YMMV.

Thanks for the reply. I think that overcrimping is my problem. That seems to be the consensus of most people that chimed in yesterday. To tell the truth I fooled with it so much yesterday I thought I'd just let it rest and go to the range with my ,new to me, 19-3. There's a world of knowledge on this forum and I appreciate those who chose to share their knowledge with a novice like me.

I am not quite following the bulged case scenario. The rounds are obviously fitting just fine till they reach the last 1/8" or so. Wouldn't this mean that the cases (if they are bulged at the crimp) are being stopped by hitting the throat. They obviously fit in the chambers just fine to that point so they're not bulged oversize. I have a similar issue with a M66. If I load bullets with a wide front driving band (correct term?) they will not seat all the way. These same rounds will load just fine in all my other .357's including my little scandium J frame. I inquired here but was assured that I was doing something wrong and the throats couldn't possibly have anything to do with it. If your rounds are just dropping right in up till that point bulged cases just seems odd.

Take a bullet (not a round) and drop it in each cylinder chamber. Does it fall right through/out??


Now try to drop the bullet in each from the front. Does it even go in??

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Still Running Against the Wind

I follow you exactly. You obviously saw my pictures of the rounds almost seating in the cylinder but almost everybody says the cases are bulged because of overcrowding. How'd they seat as far as they did?

Good idea. I don't have any more of the Oregon Trail bullets but it appears that this last hundred rounds that I have loaded are useless in there present configuration so I'll have to pull the bullets if I want to use them. I'll do what you recommend when I pull them. I hate pulling bullets.

Look at SAAMI chamber specs -- the chamber is very slightly tapered -- doesn't take much to impede chambering. Couple of years ago, had similar situation w/454 casull and 300gr Nosler Partitions -- they were actually run thru the Lee factory crimp die w/carbide sizer -- they would chamber almost to the end of the chamber -- wrinkled case due to over crimp.

Simple enough to confirm -- adjust your crimp die and see if they'll chamber. USE NEW CASES, NOT THE ONES THAT ARE ALREADY LOADED.

Paul

You might be able to salvage the loaded rounds. Order a Lee factory crimp die, the one with the carbide sizer die in the base (not the collet die). The sizer is designed to size the loaded case to factory specs. May work and would save you a lot of effort pulling bullets.

Lee Carbide Factory Crimp Die

FWIW,

Paul