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Old 10-03-2018, 11:22 AM
Skeet 028 Skeet 028 is offline
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Default Question about some 45s I "loaded"

I was loading 45s with the 1050. Got low on powder so opened new can(231) and dumped it in. I usually check powder charges every 200 or so...about 15 minutes. Well I skipped that step for a 1/2 hour or so and when I did check. the charge was a grain heavy at 6.4 gr. That was a holy cow moment. I dumped the powder and got another can with the same lot number as the previous powder and it was right back at 5.4 gr, I hadn't dumped all the rounds out of the catch bin so I have about 500 suspect rounds I have kept separate. My question to y'all here is this... I happen to have a Ruger Blackhawk Convertible with the 45 ACP cylinder. Rather than tear all them down. Do you think they would be safe to shoot in that BHawk?? Yeah...I know. Grasping at straw. I still don't know why that powder threw such different charges. New can...just different lot number.
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Old 10-03-2018, 11:30 AM
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Depending on the bullet you are using you are already at the brink of max. If you had a 5 shot Freedom Arms I wouldnt be afraid, but not in an RBH
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Old 10-03-2018, 11:51 AM
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Using that same ol H&G #68 200 gr cast. I surely wouldn't shoot 'em in a 45 auto..but being as it is a BH with the supported case and all I thunk it may be ok..but that is why I asked..I got to thinking..And I didn't want to do a Bubba..here hold my beer and watch this. And I don't even drink beer...a waste of shooting money ya know
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Old 10-03-2018, 12:29 PM
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Originally Posted by Skeet 028 View Post
Using that same ol H&G #68 200 gr cast. I surely wouldn't shoot 'em in a 45 auto..but being as it is a BH with the supported case and all I thunk it may be ok..but that is why I asked..I got to thinking..And I didn't want to do a Bubba..here hold my beer and watch this. And I don't even drink beer...a waste of shooting money ya know
Let your brother-in-law shoot a couple of cylinder loads first.
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Old 10-03-2018, 12:30 PM
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The last time I commented on not checking powder charges for 200 charges thrown I got my hand slapped for my opinipn. So, I would never go more than 10 charges, MAX, without weighing/checking...

Even when I helped a friend reload some 45 ACP for competition he would spot check one out of every 25-30 rounds, I pulled the handle, he spot checked...

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Old 10-03-2018, 12:40 PM
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Put me down on the list that feels YES, the Blackhawk is a safe platform to pull those bullets!
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Old 10-03-2018, 12:42 PM
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Using that same ol H&G #68 200 gr cast. I surely wouldn't shoot 'em in a 45 auto..but being as it is a BH with the supported case and all I thunk it may be ok..but that is why I asked..I got to thinking..And I didn't want to do a Bubba..here hold my beer and watch this. And I don't even drink beer...a waste of shooting money ya know

Trouble with 6 shot cylinders is the bolt stop notch is over the chamber, where on 5 shot guns it's between chambers
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Old 10-03-2018, 12:59 PM
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u bad, but........

most companies try to put out their powders to match a specific energy
that puts out the same fps out of their test barrels, before they
put it in containers for the public.

However this does not always happen.
One reason a powder might not be on the shelf, until they get it right, or they think it is "Close enough" and let it go out the doors.

A big vise and long string is always handy to have around.
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Old 10-03-2018, 01:08 PM
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Originally Posted by 29aholic View Post
Trouble with 6 shot cylinders is the bolt stop notch is over the chamber, where on 5 shot guns it's between chambers
That's true of S&W revolvers, but not some others. The notches are not centered over the chambers on the Ruger Security Six, for instance.
-Mark
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Old 10-03-2018, 01:11 PM
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Wow, I have never seen that much variation in volume charge wts when changing lots of powder, never. If you didn't verify with another lot, I would suspect something loosened up on the measure.
Depending on whos data point, you are way over max. So me, no I would unfortunately pull them. I check powder charge wts at the start of every session. Not much moves around on a Dillon measure.
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Old 10-03-2018, 02:10 PM
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I canít answer your question however I can supply a screen shot of an email directly from Ruger about their proof testing. I canít give advice or guess the pressures of those rounds however so take this for what itís worth. What you do with the info is up to you and only you.
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Old 10-03-2018, 05:33 PM
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SAAMI formerly published information regarding proof testing rounds, but they no longer do it, that information apparently being limited to arms and ammunition manufacturers. The European standards agency equivalent to SAAMI is the C.I.P. and says the following: "The standard proof test consists of firing two overloaded cartridges that produce 25% more chamber pressure than the C.I.P. specified maximum pressure limit for the same cartridge in its commercial version."

I believe that one of the large ammunition manufacturers (I don't know which one) produces all of the "official" proof test ammunition used by all U. S. civilian firearms manufacturers. I assume that all military proof test ammunition (except for the 9mm) is produced at Lake City AAP.

The Lake City Product Manual specifies that high pressure test ammunition for the 5.56mmm and 7.62mm produce maximum chamber pressures of 73 Kpsi and 69.5 Kpsi respectively. Nominal service ammunition maximum chamber pressures for both calibers are 55 Kpsi.

The only handgun caliber listed in the LC Product Manual is the .45 ACP M1911. The nominal peak chamber pressure of the ball round is given as 19 Kpsi while the high pressure test round maximum chamber pressure is given as 23 Kpsi.

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Old 10-03-2018, 06:01 PM
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Well I do know Winchester does proof loads as I have some in 30-06 38s and 22 LR believe it or not. I saw the 22s just the other day. They have black labels on the box. I don't know why that powder was so much heavier but I did load some rounds with the 5.4 gr and they were just fine. I did learn a lesson though. And NOW I check 'em every time I open a new can. Never had any deviation like that one, though. Checking every 10th round with a Dillon 650 or 1050 just isn't worthwhile. When I am on a roll I will take samples from the ammo catch bin and check them...Usually 5 in an hours worth of reloading. Even with Unique they stay statistically the same. 231 drops very well. Only ones I won't use are 800X and Blue Dot....in a progressive.
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Old 10-03-2018, 07:38 PM
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I wonder if the problematic lot has a finer consistency than usual. You might try comparing a few grains from each lot under a magnifying glass.

I personally would mark the bad rounds, set them aside, and break them down later when I got around to it. This is a good reason to buy a Hornady Cam Lock Bullet Puller.

The good news is you caught the problem and only wasted 15 minutes loading those 200 rounds.
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Old 10-03-2018, 08:00 PM
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When in doubt....pull em'

Also, I agree I have never seen a 1 grain difference in lots of any pistol powder I have used

Last edited by snakeye; 10-03-2018 at 08:22 PM.
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Old 10-03-2018, 08:47 PM
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Default My Speer #9....

Speer number 9 had a special section for Thompson Center Contenders and Blackhawks. The .45 isn't a high pressure cartridge. That's not definitive but it gives a hint. My old Sierra book has .38 special loads that were a grain higher than other books. Raucous, but the key was 'Strong Modern Handgun'.
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Old 10-03-2018, 09:18 PM
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To make it simple sell them to me. My FA83 will eat them

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Old 10-03-2018, 10:39 PM
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According to Sierra #13, the max load for w231 + a 230 gr FMJ is 6.2 gr. I'm going from memory, so I may be off a bit. That was hottest FMJ load I remember seeing.

One of my old FMJ loads was 5.7 gr W231, which isn't a hot load.
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Old 10-03-2018, 10:39 PM
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That cam lock puller won't work on those 200 gr H&G 68s. it will have to be knocked apart. And it was at least a 1/2 hour...400 or more plus the ones that were already in the bin when I changed powder. I did use the powder up using a Lyman 55 measure for some light loaded 45 Colt for Cowboy action shooting for a friend. We wasted a few here at home to make sure they were ok for his shooting so the powder did what it was supposed to at the charge weight specified. And like I said...I loaded a few(ACPs) with the 5.4 load and they were fine. I guess I will just have to take 'em apart and dump the powder. It will sure take more time to tear 'em down than it did to load 'em. Thanks for the help guys. Better safe than sorry.
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Old 10-03-2018, 10:49 PM
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Hornady’s 10th edition manual lists three different 200gr jacked bullets for the 45 ACP - Max charge of 231 is 6.3gr and HP38 is 6.5gr. Also listed are two different 200gr swaged SWCs – max charge of HP38 is 6.5gr.

SWC OAL is 1.225 with the long nosed bullet.

FWIW,

Paul
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Old 10-04-2018, 01:27 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Skeet 028 View Post
...I happen to have a Ruger Blackhawk Convertible with the 45 ACP cylinder.
Rather than tear all them down. Do you think they would be safe to shoot in that BHawk??
Putting all other questions & concerns aside;

Yes, the Blackhawk shouldn't have a trouble with them (200gr L-SWC, w/6.4gr @ W231).

Handloads .com has an article using a convertible Ruger New Model Blackhawk e/w a 45ACP cylinder. They loaded 45ACP cases to 45 Super(+) loads at ~30K CUP.

Handloads-Ruger Blackhawk 45 Auto Loads

.
Hodgdon's online reloading data lists a 200gr JHP, 45 Super load with 6.6gr/HP-38 @ 20K CUP (weak for 45 Super)

.
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Old 10-04-2018, 03:23 AM
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Our NM Blackhawk 45C was purchased for the sole purpose of pulling bullets when my 7++ grains of Unique made the Colt GM ring like a bell.
Proper tools make work easy and fun.

Don’t load with W231 but the BH is stout.
Just received a “steel is real” grip frame and will fit/grip that soon.
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Old 10-04-2018, 11:31 AM
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Using Quickload and 6.4 grains of 231, the resulting maximum chamber pressure is only about 16 Kpsi and should be very safe to fire in a Blackhawk. That is, if you believe Quickload.
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Old 10-04-2018, 12:35 PM
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Quote:
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Using Quickload and 6.4 grains of 231, the resulting maximum chamber pressure is only about 16 Kpsi and should be very safe to fire in a Blackhawk. That is, if you believe Quickload.
Yet Hodgdon says 5.6gr is 16.9k so I tend to think QL, which is an educated guess, is a bit off, though individual guns can vary that much with identical loads. Yes I understand cup & psi are diff.

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231/HP-38 .451" 1.225" 5.6 914 16,900 CUP
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Old 10-04-2018, 09:44 PM
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I just did a ton of research on 45 super and 460 rowland but it was mostly power pistol, longshot, and AA#7. I would think you'll be ok, as stated above hodgdon shows lower velocity across the board pretty much on all their ammo.

I would think with the extra grain it would be more +p. You may have trouble cycling it on a auto loader but a revolver should be pretty good.

Added note..... from my Sierra manual
45 auto rim 200 gr. FPJ 6.1 gr of 231 is 800 fps
230 gr FMJ 6.3 gr of 231 is 800 fps

45 acp 185 hr JHP 6.3 gr of 231 is 950 fps
200 gr FPJ 6.4 gr of 231 is 900 fps

So there further proves it's only loaded as a +P. It's pretty small load and doesn't even approach a 45 super load from most of the data I've collected.

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Old 10-05-2018, 07:43 PM
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I took 10 apart and weighed the total powder and it averaged out as 6.43 gr for the whole 10. I even put the ACP cylinder in the BH and fired 10. Other than one normal round (5.4 gr) they all shot pretty much like a bit hotter 45 auto. No flat primers no ridiculous recoil...not even a pressure wave like you get from hot rounds. I think I will go ahead and shoot them at balloons back at the cliff behind the house. Not even any leading from the cast bullets. I still won't shoot them in my Wilson or one of the Kimbers either. I just bought another Kimber in 4 inch and I have to get some 45s out to break it in.....But not these.
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Old 10-10-2018, 08:45 AM
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Why couldn't you just weigh them to find the suspect rounds?
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Old 10-10-2018, 09:32 AM
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I took 10 apart and weighed the total powder and it averaged out as 6.43 gr for the whole 10. I even put the ACP cylinder in the BH and fired 10. Other than one normal round (5.4 gr) they all shot pretty much like a bit hotter 45 auto. No flat primers no ridiculous recoil...not even a pressure wave like you get from hot rounds. I think I will go ahead and shoot them at balloons back at the cliff behind the house. Not even any leading from the cast bullets. I still won't shoot them in my Wilson or one of the Kimbers either. I just bought another Kimber in 4 inch and I have to get some 45s out to break it in.....But not these.
After checking a few manuals , you wont be in the danger zone for pressure but you might get a bit of leading...that is warm for lead but not dangerous .
Gary
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Old 10-10-2018, 01:58 PM
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Quote:
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Why couldn't you just weigh them to find the suspect rounds?
Typically more weight variance across random empty cartridge cases then you'd see in the known powder charge variance.

You'd also have a handful of ammo that you think, maybe, hopefully... isn't over loaded. You hope.

That's not a good solution.
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Old 10-10-2018, 02:44 PM
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Quote:
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Why couldn't you just weigh them to find the suspect rounds?
well there could be more than 1 gr difference in case weights..or bullets much less the powder. . I have an older Dillon electronic scale that has been very reliable that I have culled 38 rounds with for being much heavier than others. A very quick scale to use anyway
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Old 10-10-2018, 03:56 PM
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BTW the lube on these bullets has been a pretty hard blue lube and have never had a leading problem. I sometimes get a bit of smoke.. I run them through a 4515 sizer on a Star. I will be down to buying cast bullets soon except for specialty bullets like a 429 303 and 348 or the 250 gr WFNGC bullet for the 41 Mag. Only handgun I have ever been pushy with is an old 3 screw Ruger SBH
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Old 10-12-2018, 10:56 PM
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I think that the gun can take it(I have one and while not testing high pressure .45acp loads,I have done so with .45 Colt loads and the thing giving good credentials with its strenght;but hey!my gun is not your gun!).
If in doubt,a kinetic hammer is a good investment in recuperating all the components and a safety for future mistakes if any will be made(I know I've made a few!!!).

Last edited by Qc Pistolero; 10-13-2018 at 05:54 PM.
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Old 10-13-2018, 09:42 AM
Skeet 028 Skeet 028 is offline
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I have taken almost 30 of the heavy rounds apart and all have had 5.4 gr powder in them. They were all US military cases too. Grandson gave me 33 9mm FC loaded rounds that all failed to fire(in a striker fired gun). I tried 'em in a 9mm Black Hawk. Still no go... The other 17 in the box fired normally. I've taken almost a hundred of the other rounds apart and almost all are right at 6.4 gr or normal. No other anomalies. Yhose hammers work well but it is a slow process
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Old 10-13-2018, 05:57 PM
Qc Pistolero Qc Pistolero is offline
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A little trick here Skeet;when I had a few hundreds to undo,I'd do it a few at a time.Sitting down do do it all in one sitting is tedious and boring.
Do say 25 at a sitting,then 25 more tomorrow and so on;this way it ain't so bad.
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Old 10-13-2018, 11:39 PM
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You know..back when I loaded 410s in large batches..I would take a hundred or so to work and deprime and resize...I mostly loaded Remingtons and the steel bases really needed resizing. I would do that from November to early March. The reason for the Remingtons is they would hold actual 1/2 ounce or slightly more. You are right..I'll try to do 50 or so tomorrow.. I wasted all day today at an auction. Only bought one rifle and some reloading items. I let a 629 get away for 475. Nice gun....but Stainless with full lug.
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Old Yesterday, 01:59 AM
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Our Blackhawk, in 45ACP bullet puller mode, now has a stainless grip frame and the balance of the 7.5” is greatly improved.
Grip frame is approximately 3x heavier. Sweet!!!
New stocks will be Ebony with a silver and turquoise Seahorse as
Have Gun
Will Sail
Paladin knew Melville.
With the exception of trigger work, in ‘81 a friendly bullseye shooting Smith at Ruger replaced a broken trigger spring and went along with my white lie that it was possibly shaving lead.

A good upgrade for our needs.

Last edited by Imissedagain; Yesterday at 02:07 AM.
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