I'm a new reloader and am re-loading 38's for a S&W snub nose, various brass cases, and 158 Lswc bullets. I have Red Dot powder, but can't find a recipe to start from. Any help?....ps. I am going VERY slow and double checking everything.
model 66-2
Lee Challenger SS press
Lee scale
Lee new hand primer w/ Winchester sp primers

I use Red Dot in .38 spl. My load is 3.0 grains under a 158 grain RNFP. Not a barn buster load, but gets the job done accurately.

thanks, I will proceed with caution

It's my personal position that Red Dot is not a great choice in small doses because the large flakes tend to meter poorly from the powder measures that I use. This may be a minority opinion as many folks enjoy this powder in .38 Special but I don't care for it.

With that said, published load data with Alliant powders took a dump after 2005, so the 2005 Alliant guide is most definitely the source I like best for Alliant powders in handgun loads. The 2005 Alliant guide says that 3.1gr is your max load for a 158gr LSWC in .38 Special, they suggest 835fps and 14,600 PSI with a Federal #100 SP primer.

Lower this max load 10% and work toward it in your guns.

Go to the Alliant web site:
38 Special 158 gr Speer LSWC Speer 1.44 6 CCI 500 Red Dot 3.4 793fps

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NRA Cert. Inst. IDPA CSO

I shoot 3.5 grs with 158 gr cast bullet in my 38 spl loads . Has always worked well for me . Paul

One has to go back a ways to get Red Dot data. It is not listed nowadays very much.
Hornady #3 says 3.9grs is max. with their 158gr. Lead bullet. Hornady #4 dropped it down to 3.6grs.
Speer, starting with #10 all the way through #15 lists 3.8grs as a +P max. with their 158gr. lead bullet.

I remember quite a few shooters, back in the day, liking 3.9grs with 158gr. SWC's. in their K frame 38 Specials. No one every said that was too hot.
Now in 2" J frames or the like, I would drop down to no more than 3.5grs.. If for no other reason than that load would be more pleasant to shoot.
I also recall that back in the late 60's few of us had powder measures. It was weigh on a balance beam scale and load one at a time. As time went on we did acquire powder measures and began noticing an annoying trait with some of these large flake powders, like, Red Dot, Unique etc.. They wouldn't throw consistent charges very well. So we had to drop the target charge weight down a bit to compensate for the variation.. Or continue weighing one at a time.
So Red Dot is actually a very good powder for .38 Special loads, but it does come with that caveat..
That is partly the reason, I believe, that we don't see Red Dot listed much and, why the charges have been dropped quite a bit in present day data. There are many excellent powders presently that do meter well and are excellent in .38 Special.

Do yourself a favor. Spend $25 on a pound of Bullseye.

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Carry.."hope" isn't a strategy

If you keep to around 3.5-4 grains of Red Dot with a 158 grain RN or SWC bullet, you will be OK. Experiment in that range to see what load shoots better for you. You might try going a little lighter than 3.5 grains if you want less recoil, I would stay above 3.0 grains.

J started reloading after Newtown when components were scarce. Red Dot was all I could find. I seem to recall 3.2 grains under a 158 grain LSWC. But as others have said, it does not meter well. I still weigh every charge with my new powder, HP38, just because I am super careful and not in a rush. The HP38 is dead on every time. But the Red Dot was always off. I had to set it super low and use a trickler with every drop. Took way too long.

Use a different powder. I really like HP38.

I’ve used it in 38 with accurate soft shooting results but like others mentioned, it doesn’t meter small charges the best. For measures I’ve tried uniflow, little dandy, and lee disks. With the disks on a 3.X charge I actually dropped 1.X grains a few times! It just bridged even though this was a turret press and was rattling and banging its way around.

I have since stopped and use it only for 30-30 reduced loads in the 6-7 grain weight and no more problems. I load these on a single stage and use the uniflow though.

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Jim

The Hornady 3rd Edition (1982) lists a starting charge of 2.6 grains of Red Dot and a maximum charge of 3.9 grains of Red Dot for a 158 gr lead round nose bullet. The starting velocity was 650 fps in a 6" barrel and the maximum velocity was 900 fps.

For their 158 gr JHP, (the pre-XTP in S&W terms) they listed a starting load of 3.3 grains of Red Dot, a maximum standard pressure load of 3.8 grains, and two .38 +P loads at 4.1 grains and 4.3 grains of Red Dot. The starting velocity was 650 fps in a 6" barrel and the maximum standard pressure velocity was 750 fps and the maximum .38+ P velocity was 850 fps.

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.38 Special pressures are often confusing and debated.

The SAAMI published standards for maximum average pressure (MAP) in 1974, stated in PSI, for the .38 Special were 17,000 psi for standard pressure and 18,500 psi for .38 +P.

However, in 1994, the .38 +P SAAMI MAP pressure standard was changed from 18,500 psi to 20,000 psi when ammunition manufacturers could not provide the performance levels demanded by consumers. This change was not reflected in many loading manuals because it occurred after the publication of the ANSI standards manual in 1993. So the pressure used in loading manuals for ".38 +P" loads can be a little murky.

But basically, if you're loading .38 for a modern stamped model number K frame, .38 +P loads are fine, by either the old 18,500 psi) or new (20,000 psi) standards. If you are loading for an older revolver or a J frame that is not identified as ok for +P loads, stay with the 17,000 psi limit.

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I like to use 3.4 grains of Red Dot as a target load under a 158 gr cast bullet.

I use a Dillon measure on a 550B and it apparently shakes enough as the press cycles to settle the powder consistently, as I get very consistent throws. I'll cycle the measure about 10 times after filling the hopper to settle the powder, then check the weight, and then randomly pull one off the plate to re-check the weight every 20 rounds or so.

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The original S&W loading used a 158 gr lead bullet on top of 21 1/2 grains of FFFg black (nd about 800 fps). Consequently, whether you use Red dot, Unique, Bullseye or Win 231 be aware that the .38 Special is a comparatively large case, So large that it is easy to get a maximum charge of any of these powders in the case, and still have it not be overly obvious, let alone over flow the case. Consequently, you need to carefully inspect the powder level in each case to ensure there is not a double charge. That's a common caution with any of the old black powder era cartridges, as well as with the .357 Mag, since it's a .125" longer version of the .38 Special.

[QUOTE=kbm6893;140228748]J started reloading after Newtown when components were scarce. Red Dot was all I could find. I seem to recall 3.2 grains under a 158 grain LSWC. But as others have said, it does not meter well. I still weigh every charge with my new powder, HP38, just because I am super careful and not in a rush. The HP38 is dead on every time. But the Red Dot was always off. I had to set it super low and use a trickler with every drop. Took way too long.

Use a powder scoop...home made or one of Lee's.
The 0.5 cc Lee yellow plastic scoop will measure 3.5 grains of Red Dot. Practice , develop a technique and check the scooped charge with your scale .
I can scoop charges a lot quicker than weighing them on a scale and scooped charges can be extremely consistent if your technique is consistent. The're cheap and easy to use also .

I use the 3.5 Red Dot load in many 38 special cast bullet loads...actually any lead bullet from 105 grs. to 160 grs. works well .
Gary

I have experienced minimal problems in consistent powder weights using Red Dot in my Lyman 55 powder measure. But I have a baffle in the powder chamber and over the years have developed a consistent method of moving the handle sharply. At one time Red Dot was my favorite powder for .45 ACP and that was all I used. I was also using Red Dot for loading 12 gauge trap and skeet loads. I no longer load shotshells and have run out of Red Dot. But my present favorite handgun powder for non-magnum loads is 700-X which is ballistically similar to Bullseye. I have run out of Bullseye also but I have ample amounts of 700-X and Clays, which are good substitutes for Bullseye.

I agree with the comments about using the Lee powder dippers. I have a set of them and still use dippers for small runs rather than setting up the powder measure. Technique is everything. I remember once having a can of HS-6 which would absolutely not meter through my Lyman 55 (it jammed it up) so I was forced to use dippers.

At current I have over 10 lbs of red dot. It is my low power powder of choice. For data go to the Alliant site and enter the reloading guide. Go to Products, then shotgun then click on Red Dot powder. Hit the "show all Red Dot loads for handgun recipes. it shows many common revolver calibers.

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Front sight and squeeze

Thanks to everyone for your comments and personal Data. I,m on a steep learning curve and you,ve been very helpful. ....Don,t know why I picked RED DOT to start, but I only have 1 lb so i,ll use it as a learning experience, or maybe give it to a shotgunner and start with a finer powder that,s less flaky. I have the yellow .5cc dipper and may just do a couple experimental loads to try......either case I will proceed cautiously as we Vietnam Vets are getting scarce these days....no need to rush!

Since you already have Red Dot, use it. You may be pleasantly surprised.

I like red dot because it's bulkier than most powders for 38 spl , except trail boss . According to the LEE data using scoops , it says that the .5 cc scoop is 3.5 grs of Red Dot . I have used the .5cc scoop for years loading the 38spl using red dot powder . That makes a real nice 38 spl load using 158 gr bullets . I like red dot because it would be pretty easy to spot a double charge . I " hate " using titegroup powder in the 38spl . It's so dense it only takes a few grains to give you a 3.5 gr load . A double charge would be very very hard to spot . Red dot serves 38spl very well . I use it in other cartridges as well , 44 special and 45 colt loads . Regards, Paul

Red dot will work in target to full +P loads with the 158gr lead bullet.
You just need to try loads out to see what your weapon likes.

My 6" likes a middle pressure loading.

I bought Red Dot a few years back, during the "powder shortage". It actually worked almost as well as my "go to" powder-Bullseye. I have used the Lee dippers and the Lee Auto Disk powder measure with great success. Neither varies more than +/- .1 gr. Red Dot actually shoots cleaner, in my experience. I've also used RD in 9mm with very good results with cast lead bullets. I have about 6 lbs. on hand, just in case...

I've used Red Dot in 38 Special with 158 grain jacketed bullets. It works, but I have been more satisfied with loads using HP-38, Hi-Skor 800X or Bullseye.

Back when I first started handloading in the mid-1960s, all I had was Red Dot, as I wanted a powder which would work for handgun cartridges (.45 ACP and .44 Mag) and 12 gauge target loads, just to simplify logistics, and Red Dot was it. It worked OK for me.

Lots of people love Red Dot in their handgun loads and many discovered it during the great powder drought.

The drought is over. Get yourself some Bullseye but don't toss the RedDot. Keep it dry & cool & it'll last longer than either of us.

With that 38 snub nose, Red Dot will get you around........

110gr JHP 680-954fps
125 JHP 777-903fps
125 lead 533-750fps light target loads
135 JHP 785-851fps
148 Lwc 680-818fps
158 Lead 700-812fps

Have fun.

I refuse to limit my powder selection to only what meters accurately through a powder measure.
If I did, I wouldn't know the pleasures of black powder or a LOT of great smokeless powders.
I want to own and use all the powders.
That requires me to be willing to use all the different metering methods available to me.
For quickly throwing below max charges with flake powders, the Lee powder scoops are king. And, they're inexpensive.

I started using Red Dot during the first Obama shortage.
Bullseye was nowhere to be found, but RD was everywhere.
I bought a bunch of it and looked up load data for it.
To my surprise, I liked it as much as I liked Bullseye.
The loads shown in my books are right around the same amounts as for Bullseye. A little more or a little less RD than BE, or the same, depending on the particular load.

One of my favorite loads for just shooting my .38s for fun is a Hornady 140 grain Cowboy bullet on top of some RD. Mild shooting. Fun shooting.
Accurate enough for informal target shooting.
And, it's cheap to shoot.
I do load 158 grain SWCs and 148 WCs with it, but the 140 Cowboy is an easy bullet to find, it loads easily into the cylinder, and it just looks good with it's flat nose.
Will it meter accurately through any of my powder measures, or even my trickler? Nope. Not a chance.
But, that's ok because I have powder scales and scoops.
Besides, a flake or two over or under makes no noticeable difference in the performance of the load.

Now, ball powders? Yep, powder measures. Fast and easy. Since I only tend to use ball powders for rifle and magnum handgun loads, I want as much uniformity, as quickly, as possible.

Now, for those of you who don't use it because it won't meter accurately with your powder measure-Thank you. More for me.

To each his own, YMMV, etc.

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What would Jim Cirillo do?

That's exactly how I discovered Green Dot. It's what I could find & found that the data is almost exactly the same as Bullseye. It's just a tad slower & you can get a bit more velocity if you really wanted to.

I went through an 8-pound jug of Alliant Promo because of the Barackolypse. I burned 99% of that in .45 ACP loads. A quick punch on the calculator tells me that it was over 12,000 rounds.

Alliant Promo is only available in an 8-pounder. If you ask them, Alliant will tell you that Promo and Red Dot may not appear the same, but the load data is exactly the same by weight (not volume.)

If you folks are this much in love with Red Dot and you aren't buying Promo, I can only imagine you really love those occasional red flakes for the extra money you've spent.

My records tell me that I paid $78 for my 8-pounder of Promo, before tax. Took me a few years to load up 12,000rds of .45 (I load much more 9mm and .38 Special)

Promo was fine, my ammo was great, but once was enough.

I also discovered Red Dot during the great powder depression ,
couldn't find Bullseye anywhere but spotted 3 1-lb. bottles of Red Dot on the shelf, not wanting to be greedy I bought one . After using it in lead bullet handgun and rifle loads I soon wished I had bout all 3 pounds.
I have since become an official member of the hoarders association , I'm not running short the next time the democats get back in power and start another panic buying situation !
Gary

I am pretty OCD about reloading and just wouldn’t be satisfied with using a scoop without weighing it to be sure.

A friend gave me 12 pounds of Red Dot several years ago, so guess what I use? I have developed loads with it for every handgun cartridge I load, and like it a lot. Three grains under a 158 grain bullet will give you a pleasant load in .38 Special.

If you decide you like Red Dot, you may want to try Promo, too, if you can find it. It’s Red Dot without the dots, and is cheaper.

Good luck! Sounds like you are doing it right.

Red Dot is the #1 12 Ga. trap load powder loaded over the years, for matches.

It also can be used for pistols and rifle loads if you can find load data.


It works for me in the 38 and 9mm but I have also found out that
Green Dot works in all three as well.

It is my new light target to full 9mm loads to NATO speeds with
my testing done, in the last two years.

Dot, is good.

I could not find a shop in the State of Montana who claimed their distributor stocked it. By the time I paid shipping and haz-mat I could buy 8 lbs of Red Dot. Glad it is accessible somewhere but no one could get it here.

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Front sight and squeeze

Promo is available only in 8 lb kegs and is used mostly by Trap shooters.
Find a Trap club that sells components and they will probably have it.

I too have a bunch of promo I need to burn up. 8 pounder left over from shotgun days. Keep the loads coming. Also check out load data . Com for data. I am a member and worth every penny. It is run by Handloader magazine so data is legitimate .

Sorry I haven't been able to scour all the older posts if this is a duplicate but for old Alliant manuals look here:

Alliant Manuals

I saw that the 1996 and 2000 manuals have 38 special Red Dot load data for sure. There may be others.

Use this as a "starting point" of knowledge (or not to exceed point). Alliant usually only posts maximum load data not min and max data.

Being an amateur hacker I just now went to the Alliant Load Data web sight. I clicked products, clicked shotshell powders, clicked RED Dot, clicked View All Red Dot Recipes. 38 spcl is at the top of page just below 12 Gauge.

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"Don't Give Up the Ship"

This has been an interesting read. I have only limited experience hand load revolver, old timer on rifle. I used Unique for the .38 spl. and have a few pounds inventoried. Currently, powder is scarce in my neck of the woods. My wife brought home a pound of Triple Seven the other day, and I noticed the other two powders the store had was Green Dot and Red Dot. I think I will try the Red Dot. I have .45 dies and 9mm dies on the way. Already have the .38 spl. Nothing ventured, nothing gained.

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Kevin in Oregon

Even if there isn't a lot published for it now, there are tons of loading data out there. It's great for .38.

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"He was kinda funny lookin'"

....I use a scale and weigh almost every load. But the scoops are pretty conservative and with a good metering powder like Bullseye, after seeing how consistent it was I loaded a bunch of 2.8 gr loads for wadcutters. I wouldn't try to scoop a maximum load of anything without thorough weight checking. But for some particular lighter loads, it works great.

PS: Developing the 'shake' to level off the powder consistently is essential.

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"He was kinda funny lookin'"

At my age, the shake comes naturally and it usually ends up emptying the scoop !!

Speer manual #8 lists 4.7 grains of Red Dot as a max load for a 158 grain SWC or RN lead bullet. Velocity listed as 1037 FPS.

4.2 grains yields 934 fps

Ah, yes the good old days of 1970 when real reloaders fired for effect :-)

Red Dot has always been accurate for me. I wouldn't mind having a jug of it.

Hornady 2nd edition shows 3.5 to 5.6 gr of Red Dot with a 158gr lead bullet. Hornady 3rd edition shows 2.6 to 3.9gr of Red Dot with a 158gr lead bullet. I wonder why they dropped the charge weights so much. Copyright dates are 1973 and 1980. Was the powder reformulated with a faster burn rate?

You can't change the burn rate and still call it the same name , Red Dot is still red dot , even if it does burn cleaner it's still the same " burn rate " . I got this from a senior advisor @ Alliant yrs ago . Regards Paul

Some reloading manuals seem to be high, and some low as far as max loads go, I look at a bunch of them, and take an average and start there.

The biggest change you will see in published manuals when you compare them decades apart is that their testing got a lot better and it got a lot more accurate.

If you want to be all about safety and you wish to load conservatively, you shouldn’t be using 30+ year old published load data.

Back in the 70's they let it all hang out and speed was the name of the game and no legal hand cuffs were used.

Test were done usually with a K frame or a "Test Barrel" that could be as long as 7 or longer, like Hodgdon data .

Todays manuals have been toned down, so the data will work in all weapons, no matter what materials** that they are made up with.

If you use the old data, just use a Quality weapon that is +P rated
and in good shape and you will be fine.......
However, going to the "Maximum load" for your weapon needs a slow build up, for your safety and it might not be the most accurate in your weapon.

Stay safe.

Actually, most any manufacturer of anything can do anything they want.

Jack Daniels Old #7 Whiskey was 90 proof for decades, now it is only 80.

The burn rate has got to be less nowadays.

I'm guessing the philosophy is drink more and enjoy it less.

He explained to me that they are federally controlled and are only allowed a 4% variation from the original test batch that was certified . So to say that they can do whatever they want is wrong -- internet myth .
You can get a bottle of powder the meets certification but is 3% slower than the original . Remember they are allowed 4% so it qualifies . The next bottle you buy could be 3% faster in burn rate than the original --- it meets qualification standards , again . But now you have a 6% variation between the first bottle and the 2nd bottle . That is why you are always recommended to start out low and work you way up when starting using a new bottle of powder . So , gentlemen there is the truth of the matter , as it was told to me . Red dot is neither faster or slower than the original batch that was certified , I believe in 1932-33 . It's only a lot to lot variation of no more than 4% from the original . Regards , Paul

Then there's that ol' "half gallon" of ice cream or OJ, the "quart of mayonaise", etc....