Hot Load for 10-5?

[kbm6893]

I just got a super nice 10-5 in 4”. Like barely looks fired. I have t bought factory ammo in years. I load an Xtreme bullet 158 grain plated over about 3.8 grains of HP38. Thats upper end for that formula, because I was always told to load in the high side for plated bullets. I’m gonna dual down future rounds but are those rounds too hot for a 50 year old tapered barrel gun?

[HKSmith]

Your gun is capable of handling any standard or plus P 38 special load. Your load is well below SAAMI specifications for 38 special. The tapered barrel has no effect, since peak pressures are reached in the cylinder.

[ArchAngelCD]

S&W has stated any all steel revolver with a model # (post 1957) is safe with +P ammo. This is not my opinion, it's what S&W has said.

That load is probably below 14,000 CUP, nowhere near the standard .38 Special pressure limits let alone hitting +P pressures. If your 3.8gr loads is shooting well and is accurate I would stick with it. Of course only you can decide what is best for you and your gun.

[Nevada Ed]

if I owned a K frame, I would be kind to this work of art that
is one of S&W's top model for standard and a few +P loads.

I killed my M19 with +P loads and was very sorry for it's loss.
The 686 replacement does not have the same feel or balance.

Enjoy.

[growr]

I have used a 158 SWC and 5 gr. of Unique for many years. Very accurate and relatively mild to shoot.

Seems like your load would be very accurate as well without being a firebreathing dragon type load.

Randy

[STORMINORMAN]

Originally Posted by Nevada Ed

I killed my M19 with +P loads and was very sorry for it's loss.
The 686 replacement does not have the same feel or balance.

Enjoy.

Ed: approximately how many +P loads killed your Model 19...?

[Boogsawaste]

Originally Posted by STORMINORMAN

Ed: approximately how many +P loads killed your Model 19...?

I was going to ask the same!

[ArchAngelCD]

Originally Posted by Nevada Ed

if I owned a K frame, I would be kind to this work of art that
is one of S&W's top model for standard and a few +P loads.

I killed my M19 with +P loads and was very sorry for it's loss.
The 686 replacement does not have the same feel or balance.

Enjoy.

How did you kill a M19 which is a .357 Magnum with .38 Special +P loads?

[bigggbbruce]

Originally Posted by ArchAngelCD

How did you kill a M19 which is a .357 Magnum with .38 Special +P loads?

My guess would be a gun out of time, and bullets hitting the edge of the forcing cone.

But we have vague information.

[AZretired]

I'm trying to imagine what you would need to do to kill a M19 with +P ammo!

[mikld]

Originally Posted by kbm6893

I just got a super nice 10-5 in 4”. Like barely looks fired. I have t bought factory ammo in years. I load an Xtreme bullet 158 grain plated over about 3.8 grains of HP38. Thats upper end for that formula,

I’m gonna dual down future rounds but are those rounds too hot for a 50 year old tapered barrel gun?

Where did you get this info? I only tried 1,000 plated bullets and everything I read, on manufacturer's web sites and in forums was use lead bullet data, and one site said "mid jacketed data" (whatever that means). None mentioned "upper" anything.

I have a personal rule that after 30+ years of reloading I still stick to, and I suggest it to newer reloaders; I pay very little attention (none) to any load data that I see on any forum, hear from any range rat, gun counter clerk, pet loads website, good intended friend or gun shop guru. I get 98% of my data from published reloading manuals, with a bit from powder manufacturer's web sites. There is waaaay more to reloading manuals than just load data and I can open 3 manuals on my bench and compare data very easily. In my entire reloading career, I have had one squib, 1970, and no Kabooms, no near Kabooms, and have had plenty of loads, enoughn to keep me busy experimenting for years...

Go slow. Double check everything. And most important, have fun...

[ArchAngelCD]

Originally Posted by bigggbbruce

My guess would be a gun out of time, and bullets hitting the edge of the forcing cone.

But we have vague information.

I wasn't asking the OP what was wrong with the gun, I was inquiring how ammo that is under 20,000 PSI damaged a gun meant to fire ammo with pressures as high as 35,000 PSI? The M19 is a .357 Magnum revolver so again, how did you kill it with .38 Special +P ammo?

[kbm6893]

Originally Posted by ArchAngelCD

S&W has stated any all steel revolver with a model # (post 1957) is safe with +P ammo. This is not my opinion, it's what S&W has said.

That load is probably below 14,000 CUP, nowhere near the standard .38 Special pressure limits let alone hitting +P pressures. If your 3.8gr loads is shooting well and is accurate I would stick with it. Of course only you can decide what is best for you and your gun.

The data says 3.7 grains is 14,600 CUP and I’m loading closer to 3.8. I’ll dial it down from now on and use the ones I have in my .357.

[kbm6893]

Originally Posted by mikld

Where did you get this info? I only tried 1,000 plated bullets and everything I read, on manufacturer's web sites and in forums was use lead bullet data, and one site said "mid jacketed data" (whatever that means). None mentioned "upper" anything.

I have a personal rule that after 30+ years of reloading I still stick to, and I suggest it to newer reloaders; I pay very little attention (none) to any load data that I see on any forum, hear from any range rat, gun counter clerk, pet loads website, good intended friend or gun shop guru. I get 98% of my data from published reloading manuals, with a bit from powder manufacturer's web sites. There is waaaay more to reloading manuals than just load data and I can open 3 manuals on my bench and compare data very easily. In my entire reloading career, I have had one squib, 1970, and no Kabooms, no near Kabooms, and have had plenty of loads, enoughn to keep me busy experimenting for years...

Go slow. Double check everything. And most important, have fun...

Xtreme bullets data says to use lead data which is what I am using. Most people I have spoken to say plated bullets require a little more pep since the plating slows the bullet down a bit. Either way, lead data for my bullets says 3.7 max which gives 14,600 CUP.

And I go super slow. Single stage press and weigh every charge.

[AZretired]

I don't use HP38 but I do use Bullseye and Unique for most of my loading. UI use either 3.6 gr Bullseye or 4.6 gr Unique under am Xtreme 158 Plated SWC with good results. No excess pressure signs and felt recoil seems about the same as a factory standard load.

[alwslate]

Originally Posted by kbm6893

The data says 3.7 grains is 14,600 CUP and I’m loading closer to 3.8. I’ll dial it down from now on and use the ones I have in my .357.

You are being waaaayyy cautious. Std pressure limit is 17,000 psi
and +P limit is 20,000 psi. 4.0 grs is a popular load for cast lead
158 gr SWCs and is close to factory ammo velocity at around
800 fps from 4" barrels.

[kbm6893]

Originally Posted by alwslate

You are being waaaayyy cautious. Std pressure limit is 17,000 psi
and +P limit is 20,000 psi. 4.0 grs is a popular load for cast lead
158 gr SWCs and is close to factory ammo velocity at around
800 fps from 4" barrels.

Ok. Thank you. I’ll still dial it down for future loadings but certainly not gonna discard what I already have produced.

[Boogsawaste]

Originally Posted by kbm6893

Xtreme bullets data says to use lead data which is what I am using. Most people I have spoken to say plated bullets require a little more pep since the plating slows the bullet down a bit. Either way, lead data for my bullets says 3.7 max which gives 14,600 CUP.

And I go super slow. Single stage press and weigh every charge.

Xtreme actually says high end lead or mid range jacketed but not to exceed 1500 FPS. They recommend that over 1200 FPS to use their “heavy plated” bullets but it says for superior accuracy, nothing about safety.

You aren’t going to hit 1500fps in any 38 special loads. I’d be careful downloading charges.

Just copied from their site:

Our Copper Plated Bullets can be run at mid-range jacketed velocities or higher end lead velocities. We recommend keeping velocities to less than 1500 FPS (Feet Per Second) and using only a light taper crimp

[Warren Sear]

Originally Posted by Nevada Ed

if I owned a K frame, I would be kind to this work of art that
is one of S&W's top model for standard and a few +P loads.

I killed my M19 with +P loads and was very sorry for it's loss.
The 686 replacement does not have the same feel or balance.

Enjoy.

I am also curious how a Model 19 can be damaged by shooting .38 Special +P ammo in it.

Please elaborate.

[Warren Sear]

^^^^ Helo-o-o-o-o-o Nevada Ed???

[Ivan the Butcher]

Nevada Ed has many exciting opportunities living in Reno, monitoring old postings is way down the list! He has always answered any PM I sent him. He's just a nice guy that way.

If you want Nevada Ed to answer your questions, he is just a PM away. That does not guarantee an answer, but it guarantees he gets the question.

Go to any one of his posts and left click on his name in YELLOW, that brings up a menu, pick "Send a private message to Nevada Ed". That starts the game rolling!

My bet is, he meant a model 15. But I'm not that curious!

Ivan

[bmcgilvray]

Here y' ar. Take a walk on the wild side.

This old thread posted here on Smith & Wesson Forum represents some .38 Special performance load efforts and ruminations about findings. See post No. 42 for all the "hot loads." The revolvers used at the time are still kicking and still none the worse for the wear as far as may be determined. Use any data at your own risk, working it up in your own revolver.

Some .38 Special Chronograph Tests

[GyMac]

Originally Posted by alwslate

You are being waaaayyy cautious. Std pressure limit is 17,000 psi
and +P limit is 20,000 psi. 4.0 grs is a popular load for cast lead
158 gr SWCs and is close to factory ammo velocity at around
800 fps from 4" barrels.

Agree on the 4.0 grain load. I've shot several thousand of these, including through a Model 12. I've never given a thought to them being anything but a normal load. And I consult loading manuals.

[Nevada Ed]

Sorry for the long wait........
another one of my no prof reading post..........
I do that now and then in my Senior years.

That +P load was to be a 357 load !!
Sorry

Barrel crack at 6 O'clock.......
and yes it was from hot light bullets. Lots of them.

Too soon Olt, and too late smart, as the old saying goes.

[Sevens]

Originally Posted by mikld

Where did you get this info? I only tried 1,000 plated bullets and everything I read, on manufacturer's web sites and in forums was use lead bullet data, and one site said "mid jacketed data" (whatever that means). None mentioned "upper" anything.

I have a personal rule that after 30+ years of reloading I still stick to, and I suggest it to newer reloaders; I pay very little attention (none) to any load data that I see on any forum, hear from any range rat, gun counter clerk, pet loads website, good intended friend or gun shop guru. I get 98% of my data from published reloading manuals, with a bit from powder manufacturer's web sites. There is waaaay more to reloading manuals than just load data and I can open 3 manuals on my bench and compare data very easily. In my entire reloading career, I have had one squib, 1970, and no Kabooms, no near Kabooms, and have had plenty of loads, enoughn to keep me busy experimenting for years...

Hi there mikld, you may recognize me from another forum where both of us have done a LOT of posting over the years regarding handloading and our experiences and joy with it.

I'll take a bit of an issue with the basic message in this particular post of yours. It appears to me, in summary, that you are basically saying that you discount every poster's experience entirely and the only source you trust is powder or bullet manufacturers or published sources of data -- and that you recommend others also ignore anyone's opinion or suggestions on load data.

All well and good... but not helpful much with plated bullets and with the newest on the reloading scene-- powder coated cast lead.

Why I say this?
Most powder manufacturers (or distributors such as Hodgdon, who doesn't actually make their powders) and obviously the top-tier bullet makers such as Sierra, Speer and Hornady simply don't have good advice on loading plated bullets and powder coated lead bullets. If you ask them, they'll tell you quickly that all the different products on the market seem to be their own different things... sizing and plating thickness varying quite a bit, and they don't want to provide (much?) data for a specific product that may not apply well to a product that appear similar but in reality, ISN'T. Xtreme, Berry's, Ranier... these look alike but they aren't.

You can go to the actual manufacturer of the actual bullet and you will find their recommendations to be wholly vague, with NO true ballistic testing and published results. That sort of endeavor is expensive, frankly, and their product is NOT a expensive, it is and has always been a cheaper alternative to expensive jacketed bullets.

Thus, if you refuse to use anyone's experience when it comes to the loading and shooting of plated bullets, you are left with nothing, or nearly so, but your own experience... which is by your iwn admission... simply more unpublished and un-professionally tested random chatter.

I submit that your harsh angle hasn't helped you with plated bullets and is unlikely to help others.

I'll close with... who has loaded MORE Xtreme bullets than anyone, probably ever? That would be their sub-company, the FAILED Freedom Munitions, one of the worst ammo products I've seen on the market in my 30 years.

I think Xtreme has offered a darn good product, but I also believe they lack the skill to offer it in loaded ammo on a large scale and it seems like the market has agreed.

Me? I have on hand many tens of thousands (literally) and I have loaded and sent down range more Berry's and Xtreme than I currently have on hand.

Plated bullets are USEFUL, with limitations. And I wouldn't ever baby them or send them with any "light" load, EVER.

But I don't need to try any harder to convince anyone, I'll just keep shooting the tens of thousands that I have on hand.

[STORMINORMAN]

Originally Posted by Nevada Ed

Sorry for the long wait..
another one of my no prof reading post..........

Too soon Olt, and too late smart, as the old saying goes.

I'm flattered...

Cheers!

Norman Paul Olt

[H Richard]

The recent Lyman Loading manual shows for 158 (cast) 4.0 gr 231 = 15,900 (cup).
The 160 gr (cast) 4.9 gr 231 = 16,800 (cup).
The 170 (cast) 4.6 gr 231 = 15,500 (cup).
None of these were listed as +P.

HP38 is identical to 231.
My normal 158 gr load is 4.3 gr 231 with a cast bullet.

My

[kbm6893]

Originally Posted by Boogsawaste

Xtreme actually says high end lead or mid range jacketed but not to exceed 1500 FPS. They recommend that over 1200 FPS to use their “heavy plated” bullets but it says for superior accuracy, nothing about safety.

You aren’t going to hit 1500fps in any 38 special loads. I’d be careful downloading charges.

Just copied from their site:

Our Copper Plated Bullets can be run at mid-range jacketed velocities or higher end lead velocities. We recommend keeping velocities to less than 1500 FPS (Feet Per Second) and using only a light taper crimp

Exactly. 3.7 is listed as max for lead and I’m loading 3.8 or a touch higher.