38 Special woods load

[mikerjf]

I’ve got a couple years in making 38sp and 45acp range ammo - both LSWC using Bullseye. I just recently started using coated and really like it.

I’d like to put together a 38sp +P “woods load”, using a 158g hardcast LSWC, preferably coated.

1. Any suggested bullet sources?

2. Thinking 3.9g Bullseye, open to suggestions.

3. Should I be concerned with leading? Gas check?

TIA!

[muddocktor]

1. That depends on what you want to achieve or use them for and what you are comfortable loading. For lead bullets, I like coated 158 grain SWC bullets, which are a good all around choice. For jacketed bullets, it's hard to go wrong with any of the major manufacturer's offerings in the 125-158 grain hollow point choices.

2. I rather use a little slower powder than Bullseye, as you can get higher velocities without going past +P pressure ratings. Again, there are many choices that work well in 38 Special as it's not a picky cartridge to load for.

3. I've never had leading problems in 38 Special using Hi Tek coated bullets.

[27 Man]

I routinely use a 158 grn. SWC and 5 grn. of Unique. Good fence line walking load for the off chance to take a poke at a coyote which are really abundant in Oklahoma right now.

[Nevada Ed]

In a 2" 38 special a 158 lead with a full load of Bullseye will get around 752fps.
Unique will get up to 860fps.

In a 6" barrel I don't use Bullseye.
Red Dot gets around 890fps
Unique can get around 1014fps
Blue Dot can get around 1024fps

A 125 JHP with Unique can get 1210fps in the 38 case, that is like a Super-vel loading.

Have fun.

[Scharfschuetzer]

I'll chime in for Unique also for what you are planning. I've used it for... well, a very long time with fine results.

[rockquarry]

3.5 Bullseye and a cast 158 SWC will get around 850 fps from a 6" barrel and it's generally an accurate load if bullet fit and alloy are right. About the same ballistics as a commercial standard pressure load.

[alwslate]

6.0 grs of Power Pistol or Hodgdon Longshot with a 158 gr plain cast SWC
should reach 1,000 fps out of a 4" barrel without exceeding +P pressure.

[brucev]

I have been loading common 158-160 gr. LSWC or jacketed bullets over 5.0 gr. of Unique with perfect results since 1980. Saw it suggested by Skeeter Skelton. Good service level load in a four inch revolver. Very effective on everything I've aimed at. Sincerely. bruce.

[mikerjf]

Thank you all, esp Nevada Ed as this is for a snub.

Any source for coated 158g hardcast LSWC?

[38SPL HV]

Originally Posted by alwslate

6.0 grs of Power Pistol or Hodgdon Longshot with a 158 gr plain cast SWC
should reach 1,000 fps out of a 4" barrel without exceeding +P pressure.

I too prefer Power Pistol and 158 gr cast SWC, my factory +P velocity duplicate load using 158 gr SWC/SWCHP is 5.6 grs Power Pistol. I also use 6.0 grs Power Pistol and the 158 gr SWC for a heavier +P version in my Ruger 4 5/8 inch BH. I always get low ESs and SDs with Power Pistol in 38 Spl +P loadings. Power Pistol measures like a dream as well.

Keep your Bullseye for standard 38 Spl 158 gr loads, 3.5 grs Bullseye and 158 gr lead bullet is a classic.

[mikerjf]

Tell me if I’m right here:

1. Faster powders may lose velocity in longer barrels due to friction. Slower powders might not burn completely in shorter barrels before the bullet exits, ‘wasting’ some energy.

2. A shorter barrel might vent an overloaded slower powders excessive pressure before it’s a problem, where a longer barrel might blow up under the same load.

3. Muzzle Velocity will be due to the balance of barrel length friction against the push provided by the completeness of the selected powder’s burn within the particular barrel length.

Seems like the only homebrew way to reach an optimum power load for any particular gun/barrel is to try the max loads with every powder over a chronograph? And even then, you don’t know if pressure is actually reaching max spec or is below that because of your shorter barrel length?

I’m starting to see why this is difficult!

[Qc Pistolero]

Bullseye might not be the best choice for +P in a .38.
Power Pistol will do it more efficiently and you'll like the ''barking''.This powder means business and let it be heard too.
Unique will do the same with less noise and since you also load for the .45acp,this is probably one of your best bet to cover both bases.

[Rogeronimo]

If you're not totally in love with Unique, try a pound of Longshot for your 45 ACP and 38+P.

[Luke Duke]

All guns shoot any particular load different. But recently I picked a 4LB Caddy of W-W 572. All my guns shoot 158 gr SWC on top of 5gr of 572, which is +P per Winchester Loads with no pressure signs. Meters awesome, clean low flash and shoots great out of all my guns. Works great in 9mm and 45 ACP too. Unique and Bullseye are great choices too.

[Eddietruett]

I use 5.0gr of Universal with 130 and 158gr coated bullets. It just meters much better than Unique in my Dillon 650. Get about the same velocity. In the 158gr, I have found the TCFP from SNS to shoot a little more accurate than the SWC in most of my guns especially at 50-75 yards

[Scharfschuetzer]

Originally Posted by mikerjf

Seems like the only homebrew way to reach an optimum power load for any particular gun/barrel is to try the max loads with every powder over a chronograph? And even then, you don’t know if pressure is actually reaching max spec or is below that because of your shorter barrel length?

I’m starting to see why this is difficult!

I wouldn't overcomplicate it. I do chronograph and keep records of all my loads, often in different barrel lengths. Unique and Olin 231 (Hodgdon HP 38) have always produced great results in numerous S&W revolvers over the years. Newer powders have their advantages I'm sure, I just haven't tried them.

I'd really just pick a mid range powder for what you want to do and then work up to what you want all the while watching for any danger signs, although at normal 38 Special and +P levels they won't be that apparent.

I also wouldn't worry about using a hard cast bullet as at 38 Special velocities, you don't need one. A mid level hardness, say 16 or 18 Brinell, will suffice just fine and will not lead in your barrel if it is sized and lubed correctly.

Keep us posted on your progress.

[mikerjf]

Thank you everyone... I’ve made notes on all your refs and will start collecting the pieces, much appreciated. Sounds like its time move past Bullseye.

[slickracer]

Originally Posted by Luke Duke

All guns shoot any particular load different. But recently I picked a 4LB Caddy of W-W 572. All my guns shoot 158 gr SWC on top of 5gr of 572, which is +P per Winchester Loads with no pressure signs. Meters awesome, clean low flash and shoots great out of all my guns. Works great in 9mm and 45 ACP too. Unique and Bullseye are great choices too.

Where did you find handgun data for 572? I have a pound of HS-7 that I would like to use.

[muddocktor]

Originally Posted by slickracer

Where did you find handgun data for 572? I have a pound of HS-7 that I would like to use.

HS-7 is the same as WW 571, not 572. 572 is a new powder and not related to the old HS-7/571. As for data, if you look around you can find old WW and other reloading data posted. I had loaded up a couple of pounds of 571 I had left over from the 80's I originally used for loading 10 gauge duck loads with before they banned lead shot. I ended up using the left over 571 in 357 Mag loads.

[WR Moore]

Originally Posted by mikerjf

Tell me if I’m right here:
.................even then, you don’t know if pressure is actually reaching max spec or is below that because of your shorter barrel length?

I’m starting to see why this is difficult!

OK, barrel length has nothing to do with maximum pressures. Max pressure is generally reached in miliseconds and probably before the bullet exits the cyinder. Certainly by the time the bullet is fully in the barrel. As the bullet moves forward, the volume the gas has to expand in increases and you have the barrel/cylinder gap as a vent.

If you have a chronograph, start low, work your way up. I happened to find a good load below maximum with one bullet that ran ~50 f/s faster than the test piece that the load data source used.

No chrono? Be very, very cautious, sometimes primers aren't the best source of pressure signs.

Bullseye was developed to provide target level velocities with reasonably low charge weights. To do this, it has a very fast burn rate. It isn't a real good choice if you're looking for higher performance loads. These generally need a more moderate burn rate. Unique, BE86 and similar powders will work well in a snub.

[Imissedagain]

We use Penn Bullets 158 gr leads. SWC or the TCBB which is my favorite.
Bob makes them for acceptable Wood's velocities.
Unique works for us.

.38 Caliber Bullets Available From Penn Bullets

have fun
stay safe

[mikerjf]

Mr Moore, thanks for clearing that up - I assumed pressure would build through the entire burn. So max is max and *any* barrel length will be subjected to the max pressure any particular charge develops?

Missedagain, you got a Bullseye with that page... scads of interesting info there, thank you.

[Nevada Ed]

+1; Max pressure is generally reached in miliseconds.

Fast and slow powders are about the same in a 2" barrel with a slight edge
going to the slower powders for a little more speed.

In my 2" bullseye can reach 752fps and Unique does around 851fps and
does get better accuracy with a 158gr Lead bullet at maximum speeds.
W231 powder is a +/- 800fps load at best, in my revolver.

Best snub nose target load is a 158 LRN with Bullseye at 572fps
with Trail Boss at 570fps for a close second place.

[slickracer]

Originally Posted by muddocktor

HS-7 is the same as WW 571, not 572. 572 is a new powder and not related to the old HS-7/571. As for data, if you look around you can find old WW and other reloading data posted. I had loaded up a couple of pounds of 571 I had left over from the 80's I originally used for loading 10 gauge duck loads with before they banned lead shot. I ended up using the left over 571 in 357 Mag loads.

Thank you for clarifying!

[308 Scout]

Add me to the 5.0 grs. of Unique clan. I use this and home-cast traditionally lubed 158 -172 gr. SWC's for 900-930 fps out of two 4" Model 10's and a 4" Model 15. Out of the wife's 2" Charter Arms velocities are around 800 fps, if memory serves.
Very accurate load out of all my revolvers.

308S

[muddocktor]

Originally Posted by slickracer

Thank you for clarifying!

Hey slickracer, if you have access to a Speer #11 book, they have HS-7 data for both 38 Special +P and 357 Mag. In 38 Special it's confined to 158 grain bullets but in 357 Mag they show it from 100 grain on up 158 JSP/JHP and even for the discontinued 160 grain half jacket bullets.

[AManWearingAHat]

Hi Tek Coated .38 158gn SWC from Missouri Bullet over a stout charge of HS-6 should do you nicely

[mtgianni]

I would forget the hardcast. Either coated or plated will do you just fine as will a bare swc with a quality lube.
I cannot add much to the powders listed above.

[Roberto Renauld]

Originally Posted by 27 Man

I routinely use a 158 grn. SWC and 5 grn. of Unique. Good fence line walking load for the off chance to take a poke at a coyote which are really abundant in Oklahoma right now.

A friend of mine gave me some cartridges to try he used 6,5gr Unique powder on a 158 LSWC copper coated bullet for .38 Special it is accurate, no leading, manegable and has enough power for varmints hunting!!!!..

Roberto Renauld

[308 Scout]

Originally Posted by Roberto Renauld

A friend of mine gave me some cartridges to try he used 6,5gr Unique powder on a 158 LSWC copper coated bullet for .38 Special it is accurate, no leading, manegable and has enough power for varmints hunting!!!!..

Roberto Renauld

Wow, I'm not at all afraid of shooting heavy loads in any of my revolvers, but that load is significantly over +P levels. I'm betting it's a typo and should've been 5.5 gr. of Unique.

308S

[Roberto Renauld]

Originally Posted by 308 Scout

Wow, I'm not at all afraid of shooting heavy loads in any of my revolvers, but that load is significantly over +P levels. I'm betting it's a typo and should've been 5.5 gr. of Unique.

308S

Yes Sir, my information is incorrect, I telephoned my friend and he said he loads to 5,5gr with Unique, it gives him about 1080fps in a 6" barrel!!!!....

[308 Scout]

Originally Posted by Roberto Renauld

Yes Sir, my information is incorrect, I telephoned my friend and he said he loads to 5,5gr with Unique, it gives him about 1080fps in a 6" barrel!!!!....

Yep. I use that load in my K-Frames with a 150 gr. cast SWCHP. Once I get my new bullet mould I'll be using the same load with a 173 cast SWC for a field/woods load.

308S

[Me239]

Well above current max loadings, but 7.5 grains of SR4756 under a 158 hard cast SWC goes 1150+ fps from my 4" gun and 1060+ fps from my 2". Both guns are 357 magnum revolvers, so I'm not worried. I've gone up to 8.0 grains without any issue though. I did test one of the 8.0 grain loads in my LCR and had sticky extraction, but the cases fell free with the 7.5 grain load. Recoil was unpleasant to say the least and these loads are for my 357 guns only now. Really handy load as they use standard 38 brass and I can save my 357 brass for my lever gun.

I don't endorse anyone else try it, so proceed at your own risk of course.

[Roberto Renauld]

Originally Posted by 308 Scout

Yep. I use that load in my K-Frames with a 150 gr. cast SWCHP. Once I get my new bullet mould I'll be using the same load with a 173 cast SWC for a field/woods load.

308S

Yes Sir!!! I mixed up my mind with reloads!!! The Unique 7,5gr with a 158gr LSWC copper coated was the ones I used in my Model 19-MkII with 4" blued pinned barrel reccesed chambers that I had from 1979 till 1985, they performed very well indeed arround 1150 fps, and were very accurate to shoot out of this gun, nowadays I use a Model 10-9 4" pencil barrel blued with 5 to 5,5gr Unique and is a joy to shoot!!! 1000-1080fps out of the 4" barrel and it is enough for quickly dropping varmints ( foxes...)!!!
Regards
Roberto Renauld

[Frank237]

Been loading a Keith #358429 170 gr SWC over 5.0 of Unique in a Special case for years. Killed quite a few skunks and porcupines with it.

[Roberto Renauld]

Originally Posted by Frank237

Been loading a Keith #358429 170 gr SWC over 5.0 of Unique in a Special case for years. Killed quite a few skunk sand porcupines with it.

Will you tell me in what gun you use this reload, I am interested in this load for my Model 10-9 4", I remember that I could use 170gr bullets only in my Model 19 4" that had a longer cylinder than other .357´s, I understand that a Special case is shorter than a .357 case but what about the Psi generated in a chamber of a Model 10-9???
Regards
Roberto Renauld

[Qc Pistolero]

OP,as for GC,you won't need one,If the bullet fits and if it carries enough lube in its grooves,you won't lead the barrel.
I regularly shoot 45-70, 38-55 and 30-30 at or a little over 1300fps with plain base bullets and don't have a trace of lead in the bbl.

[mikerjf]

Thanks again for all input. I wonder how Buffalo Bore gets their velocities?

[Wireman134]

Originally Posted by mikerjf

Thanks again for all input. I wonder how Buffalo Bore gets their velocities?

Someone contacted BB in a previous thread and they said they run up to 22,000psi.
http://smith-wessonforum.com/1262650-post27.html

[Frank237]

Originally Posted by Roberto Renauld

Will you tell me in what gun you use this reload, I am interested in this load for my Model 10-9 4", I remember that I could use 170gr bullets only in my Model 19 4" that had a longer cylinder than other .357´s, I understand that a Special case is shorter than a .357 case but what about the Psi generated in a chamber of a Model 10-9???
Regards
Roberto Renauld

99% of use was in my old M-66.

OCL with a moderate crimp in a .38 Spcl case is 1.515". Just dropped a few of those in a M-15 and there was still more than enough space until the face of the cylinder.

[rwsmith]

A strong, modern gun like a model 10 can take stout loads in stride. I use my 1970s reloading Sierra book that runs typically about 1 grain of Unique higher than other sources. I've tried higher loads without ever going to max because I felt I didn't need it. About .4 grains above most current max loads gave me plenty of wallop.

An example FROM MEMORY is that 125 grain JHP in current literature is typically 5 grains of Unique. The Sierra book puts it at 6 grains max. Like I said, 6.4 was PLENTY powerful for me. But I didn't feel it was unsafe if I wanted to go higher. Sierra catered to handgun hunters so the loads were more stout than most books.

Missouri Bullets are great.

I think Unique is the way to go. It will do what you want and is extremely versatile for other uses. Even rifles. Before I got into .357 mag I only used two powders, Bullseye and Unique for years.